View Full Version : Polling the ARRL Membership
This is from Jim Weaver's latest newsletter to the Great Lakes Division membership
"++ A Poll for Great Lakes Division ARRL Members
I'm trying to get a tentative idea of what you think about the
following questions. Please answer the following question "yes" or
"no," only. As always, you can expand on these very brief answers, but put any discussions at the bottom of your e-mail.
Please do not mix a brief answer with a discussion. I don't have staff that can digest discussions, quickly. Reading and understanding your discussion will occur over following weeks.
The questions:
1. Do you think you understand what ARRL's Regulation by Bandwidth petition would have accomplished?
2. Do you favor changing our band assignments so that any legal mode can operate anywhere in each band (i.e. there would be no subbands for voice, data, etc.)?
3. Do you favor having amateur licenses issued for the life of the license holder (i.e. never expire during the life of the licensee)?
4. Are you happy with the way ARRL has communicated the content of its petitions to FCC with you? (The question is not about how you feel about the content of the petitions; just about the quality of the way in which ARRL informed you of them and the value of them to Amateur Radio.)
5. Are you in favor of separating our bands into segments for wide-band transmissions (e.g. up to about 4 kHz), mid-band transmissions (e.g.about 1.5 kHz to 300 Hz) and narrow-band (less than about 300 Hz).
I will let you know the results of this yea or nay poll."
73
George
K3UD
W3MIV
05-03-2007, 12:58 PM
I think this is a great idea, George. If you still have the email, would you forward it to me? I would like to send it along to my Director as a kind of nudge (pronounced "noodj"). This is the kind of thing we need to encourage far more widely.
If you have it, send it to my call @arrl.net, which should work (unless all of my recent activities have resulted in a permanent "addressee unknown" http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )
TU
WA3KYY
05-03-2007, 01:06 PM
Albert,
Why not just cut the questions out of the post, answer them and send them to your Director noting these question were sent out by the Great Lakes Director? I intend to do just that with a few brief comments after the yes/no answers.
Mike WA3KYY
W3MIV
05-03-2007, 01:29 PM
Quote[/b] (WA3KYY @ May 03 2007,08:06)]Albert,
Why not just cut the questions out of the post, answer them and send them to your Director noting these question were sent out by the Great Lakes Director? #I intend to do just that with a few brief comments after the yes/no answers.
Mike WA3KYY
I shall do just that if the original is not available or not forthcoming. I suspect that there is more to the entire email that could serve as a model communication with members than just this one excerpt.
Although this petition issue has been the most recent and most visible "topic of the moment," it is but one of many areas of concern that members share about what is going on amidst the muddlers in Newington.
Atlantic has benefitted greatly from the election of Bill Edgar, who has proven a vast improvement in communication over Bernie Fuller -- good guy, but trained in the arts of cuneiforms rather than internet. I think, however, that a bit more two-way would benefit us still more.
73
Albert,
I sent the email to you.
73
George
K3UD
W3MIV
05-03-2007, 02:21 PM
Got it. TU, Geo.
Weaver's email is a model of what is possible, though there is no question that it represents a lot of work on his behalf that many other directors would easily shun (not because the shun work, but because the may feel they already have enough on their plates).
The simple poll, such as it is, will require more work when he gets returns, and no doubt, the returns will be more than the simple yeas and nays he has requested. You've got to admire that kind of devotion to a task that comes so near "thankless" as this one does. Salary is fantastic, too.
A great lesson here, however, is the facility that the internet grants anyone who is willing to put in the effort. As the secretary of a club with monthly mailings, I have been doing more and more via email rather than snail. The savings -- printing, copying, folding, stuffing, licking (now largely gone, praise be to G.), sealing, stamping, bundling, aaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggghhhhhhh! are becoming ever more apparent, not least on my nerves and willingness to continue in office.
Now that the USPS (poor babies) are availing themselves of another boost, I am revising almost all mailings to email PDF and reserving those snail sendings to the few remaining troglodytes who have not yet owned up to owning a computer. Funny how some people guard their email address more fanatically than their cell phone number, and they are going to get spammed whether I have it or not!
I am planning another missive to Mr Edgar and I shall send this along with a pat on Mr Weaver's back.
Again, thanx.
I think polls like this are great! The only thing that I would add is that I hope when the results are compiled, that they are emailed back to all who got the original email. It is terrible when you are asked for your opinion in a poll and then the results are secret.
Quote[/b] (W0MT @ May 03 2007,10:41)]It is terrible when you are asked for your opinion in a poll and then the results are secret.
Well, how else do you expect them to claim "overwhelming support" for WinLink and Regulation by Bandwidth? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
WA9SVD
05-03-2007, 02:59 PM
Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ May 03 2007,05:58)]I think this is a great idea, George. If you still have the email, would you forward it to me? I would like to send it along to my Director as a kind of nudge (pronounced "noodj"). This is the kind of thing we need to encourage far more widely.
If you have it, send it to my call @arrl.net, which should work (unless all of my recent activities have resulted in a permanent "addressee unknown" http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )
TU
While it is a good idea, there are some traps. While it's understandable that the ARRL listen to it's membership, it must be remembered that when the ARRL petitions the FCC for a change or modification of rules, it affects ALL Amateur operators, not just ARRL members. Sadly, the ARRL has not always acted in the best interest of Amateur Radio in general, or even in the best interest expressed by the membership at large.
Now, if such a questionaire were mailed to ALL Amateurs (just like solicitations for membership or contributions to various funds) with a SASE, there would be little justification for even non-members to complain their voice wasn't heard. That is, of course, as long as the ARRL board actually acted in accordance with the publicly released results of such a poll.
The cost? No more than the solicitation letters that go out urging non-members to join.
I think this is great! Wish it would be published in QST so non computer users could vote too....
K8YZK
05-03-2007, 03:37 PM
I got the poll several days ago and sent my answers in right away. I hope others do it also, at least it is a start.
Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ May 03 2007,10:59)]While it is a good idea, there are some traps. #While it's understandable that the ARRL listen to it's membership, it must be remembered that when the ARRL petitions the FCC for a change or modification of rules, it affects ALL Amateur operators, not just ARRL members.
According to what I see here, they barely listen to the membership. What chance do you think a non-member (like myself) has? That's a trick question, BTW. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Quote[/b] ]Sadly, the ARRL has not always acted in the best interest of Amateur Radio in general, or even in the best interest expressed by the membership at large.
See above.
Quote[/b] ]Now, if such a questionaire were mailed to ALL Amateurs (just like solicitations for membership or contributions to various funds)...
Oh, don't hold your breath.
Quote[/b] ]...with a SASE, ...
I'll pay $0.39 to answer that questionarie. I'm not that cheap. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Quote[/b] ]....there would be little justification for even non-members to complain their voice wasn't heard.
Oh, if only it could happen.....
Quote[/b] ] That is, of course, as long as the ARRL board actually acted in accordance with the publicly released results of such a poll.
Once again, don't hold your breath.
Quote[/b] ]The cost? #No more than the solicitation letters that go out urging non-members to join.
Email costs next to nothing. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
kn4ds
05-03-2007, 03:59 PM
Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ May 03 2007,09:59)]I think this is great! Wish it would be published in QST so non computer users could vote too....
A good alternative is for those who do get it to print it and make it available at their local club meetings, hamfests, etc, for those who don't have a computer, and get folks to answer the questions, then collect them and pass the info on up the line to the director. Or let the folks mail them in themselves.
Sometimes, we with computers can help out those who don't have 'em and help get things like this out there.
WA9SVD
05-03-2007, 05:41 PM
Quote[/b] (kj3n @ May 03 2007,08:47)]Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ May 03 2007,10:59)]While it is a good idea, there are some traps. While it's understandable that the ARRL listen to it's membership, it must be remembered that when the ARRL petitions the FCC for a change or modification of rules, it affects ALL Amateur operators, not just ARRL members.
According to what I see here, they barely listen to the membership. What chance do you think a non-member (like myself) has? That's a trick question, BTW. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Quote[/b] ]Sadly, the ARRL has not always acted in the best interest of Amateur Radio in general, or even in the best interest expressed by the membership at large.
See above.
Quote[/b] ]Now, if such a questionaire were mailed to ALL Amateurs (just like solicitations for membership or contributions to various funds)...
Oh, don't hold your breath.
Quote[/b] ]...with a SASE, ...
I'll pay $0.39 to answer that questionarie. I'm not that cheap. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Quote[/b] ]....there would be little justification for even non-members to complain their voice wasn't heard.
Oh, if only it could happen.....
Quote[/b] ] That is, of course, as long as the ARRL board actually acted in accordance with the publicly released results of such a poll.
Once again, don't hold your breath.
Quote[/b] ]The cost? No more than the solicitation letters that go out urging non-members to join.
Email costs next to nothing. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Of COURSE it's wishful thinking! But IF all Amateurs were polled, those that don't respond wouldn't have any legitimate gripe. And IF (I won't hold my breath) the results WERE made public, then those with blinders on their eyes concerning ARRL actions could see how loyally the ARRL board responds to and respects the opinions and interests of the general Amateur population.
(BTW, the original post was MEANT to be somewhat sarcastic... I don't hold my breath about or get surprised by some of the actions taken by the ARRL lately. I fear many of their actions are decided in the "back room" and a case of "We've made up our minds; don't confuse us with facts," and expect every ham to blindly follow, like lambs to the slaughter. And using snail mail would put everyone on a level playing field; there would be no legitimate complaints about "no computer." Every ham HAS to have a vaild mailing address; that's an FCC rule.)
N5LRZ
05-03-2007, 05:50 PM
As to the directors feeling the pulse of the members in their home district--that district which elected them to the board--it is perhaps a good thing to find out what the "MAJORITY" of the voting members thinks. Note I stated the majority of VOTING members not all members. Follow....
People who are active voters and who almost religiously vote in every election are going to have the ultimate high voice in the selection of their board member, what they do and more importantly what they do NOT do. One has to understand the underlying principle of ALL politics be it small or large: REELECTION once in office. To that end you want to keep those in the majority who DO ACTUALLY vote happy. Note once again I stated the MAJORITY and not everyone.
If the posters here care to look at the elections we have for President of the US they will see that history records that in the normal presidential campagnes over half of the voters qualified to vote DO NOT VOTE. IF virtually every voter who could vote would vote we would never have any president with less than a 50% popular vote being elected president by the Electorial College.
Thus the ARRL is the same way. Ultimately those who chose NOT to vote must face the fact (weither they like it or NOT) that by NOT voting they are indirectly giving the direct authority of Represenative Selection to the minority who DO vote. Hence dont vote dont bitch/you get what you asked for.
N5PVL
05-03-2007, 06:04 PM
My vote is against mindless support of corruption.
n9lya
05-03-2007, 06:42 PM
Why only include ARRL members... They only account for 20% of the Ham Population...
I say lets get it out there for everyone that is licensed..
Lets put our money where our mouth is and use bulk mail to send voting forms to all licensed Hams.. Address data can be compiled...
73 Jerry N9LYA
ARRL Net Manager Indiana Section.
n9lya
05-03-2007, 06:48 PM
YES - It would accomplish a real mess...
NO
NO
NO
NO
73 Jerry N9LYA
n9lya
05-03-2007, 06:50 PM
Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ May 03 2007,06:04)]My vote is against mindless support of corruption.
Exactly what the ARRL Bandwidth proposal WAS... Mindless corruption... Lets hope they change it before refiling...
73 Jerry
ae4fa
05-03-2007, 09:14 PM
Weaver is to be commended.
Each ARRL Director should be doing the same. Though I agree every ham should be polled, it is a membership organization and rightfully should consider only the opinions of members. Non-members will get their chance if and when a petition is posted for comment by the FCC.
Like Albert, I'll be sending this along to my Director.
n9lya
05-03-2007, 09:45 PM
Quote[/b] (ae4fa @ May 03 2007,09:14)]Weaver is to be commended.
Each ARRL Director should be doing the same. #Though I agree every ham should be polled, it is a membership organization and rightfully should consider only the opinions of members. #Non-members will get their chance if and when a petition is posted for comment by the FCC.
Like Albert, I'll be sending this along to my Director.
I disagree... Since day one the ARRL has taughted that Members and Non-Members have been in favor of the petition...
For them to make that claim all Hams Should be polled.. Or shut Up, And only claim what is true for the members..
Seeing how... The comment period sould also show the same results.. Only more so, as they could not be altered or influenced in by the ARRL. And any poll by the arrl would be suspect due to their constant insistance that the last poll was in favor of the petition.. When it clearly was not and no detail of the poll (that never happened) were never published..
Only thing they did was in September Oct of 2004 was to ask all Hams to send comments to bandwidth@arrl.org ...
Ok cool.. The ARRL has been so closed door about this todate.. Why change... Only when confronted will they ever change..
73 Jerry N9LYA
N5LRZ
05-03-2007, 10:16 PM
PSSSST Jerry...
Just in case you missed the RULES of voting. To elect a board member he has to be IN your district and YOU have to be a PAID up member.
The ARRL is a PRIVATE ORGANIZATON licensed and chartered as a PRIVATE Not Profit if I remember correctly.
Hence the votes of NON paid members DO NOT count.
IF YOU ARE who you say you are then YOU of all people should know this.
N5LRZ
05-03-2007, 10:21 PM
As to the mention of only 20% being paid members, myself included of course.
If yall other 80% wish to make your own proposals then just DO SO.
Anyone can make a recommendation to the FCC for rules changes and or adoption. Just get off your collective heinies, go to the FCC web page and read up on how to make a formal request for rules changes.
If yall dont like what the ARRL does then make your own proposals rather than constantly bitching and moaning how yall are mistreated. Get up and speak for YOURSELF. Grow a pair. Make YOUR proposals as YOU want.
Quote[/b] (n9lya @ May 03 2007,14:50)]Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ May 03 2007,06:04)]My vote is against mindless support of corruption.
Exactly what the ARRL Bandwidth proposal WAS... Mindless corruption... Lets hope they change it before refiling...
I'd prefer it never see the light of day again.
Let it die the death it deserved in the first place.
Sent a copy of the GL email to Henry Leggette the Delta Division Director.
k5jat
05-04-2007, 07:19 AM
Quote[/b] (N5LRZ @ May 03 2007,15:21)]As to the mention of only 20% being paid members, myself included of course.
If yall other 80% wish to make your own proposals then just DO SO.
Anyone can make a recommendation to the FCC for rules changes and or adoption. Just get off your collective heinies, go to the FCC web page and read up on how to make a formal request for rules changes.
If yall dont like what the ARRL does then make your own proposals rather than constantly bitching and moaning how yall are mistreated. Get up and speak for YOURSELF. Grow a pair. Make YOUR proposals as YOU want.
I think what you're missing here is that most HAMs are happy with the way things are, thus see no need for a proposal to be made. Well, the exception would probably be to move any automatic operations into their own sub-band so they don't interfere with live people QSO's.
Personally, I'd like to see a new organization rise up and take the place of the ARRL. Of course, there's no guarantee that that organization could make everyone happy 100% of the time either.
73, Jay KE5NRH
N5LRZ
05-04-2007, 11:10 AM
Re NRH....
It is the legal right of the ARRL to make proposals it deems fit and proper on behalf of itself and its membership to the FCC for changes it deems desirable be it majority or minority.
It is the legal right of those 'outside' the ARRL Orgainzation to to make proposals that any individual or group of individuals deem to be reasonable and necessary be they majority or miniroity.
It is the legal right once proposal is made and formal debate opened by the FCC that any and all parties can make comments either pro or con on any topic so opened by the FCC for comments. Sidebar: the FCC, for the new guys and gals, can completely throw out any suggestion or suggestions for change if it so wishes.
Ultimately it will be the FCC who will be the judge, the jury and the high executioner on ultimate standing of the/any proposal regardless of majority or minority proposing it--outright refusal of debate, rejecting the proposal in total after debate, accepted as is and adopted into radio law, or good idea and accepted but ammended by the FCC as to specific content.
NOW IF any amateur does not like the system of rules and regulation making they still have two options open to them/both of which lead to the same place. One can always just turn in your license to the FCC asking that it be voided. OR one can just sell all their equipment and get out of the hobby entirely letting their license lapse into oblvion--as many have done in the past.
IF one is smart they learn to adapt to change, to go with the flow, to LEARN new stuff. Smart people change and adapt even if the reason is that they have to change--even if it is agains their personal wishes. To adapt and gut it out is difficult at times I admit, but in the long run its the best decision/policy.
k5jat
05-04-2007, 11:55 AM
Quote[/b] (N5LRZ @ May 04 2007,04:10)]Re NRH....
It is the legal right of the ARRL to make proposals it deems fit and proper on behalf of itself and its membership to the FCC for changes it deems desirable be it majority or minority.
It is the legal right of those 'outside' the ARRL Orgainzation to to make proposals that any individual or group of individuals deem to be reasonable and necessary be they majority or miniroity.
It is the legal right once proposal is made and formal debate opened by the FCC that any and all parties can make comments either pro or con on any topic so opened by the FCC for comments. Sidebar: the FCC, for the new guys and gals, can completely throw out any suggestion or suggestions for change if it so wishes.
Ultimately it will be the FCC who will be the judge, the jury and the high executioner on ultimate standing of the/any proposal regardless of majority or minority proposing it--outright refusal of debate, rejecting the proposal in total after debate, accepted as is and adopted into radio law, or good idea and accepted but ammended by the FCC as to specific content.
NOW IF any amateur does not like the system of rules and regulation making they still have two options open to them/both of which lead to the same place. One can always just turn in your license to the FCC asking that it be voided. OR one can just sell all their equipment and get out of the hobby entirely letting their license lapse into oblvion--as many have done in the past.
IF one is smart they learn to adapt to change, to go with the flow, to LEARN new stuff. Smart people change and adapt even if the reason is that they have to change--even if it is agains their personal wishes. To adapt and gut it out is difficult at times I admit, but in the long run its the best decision/policy.
Ya know, you're right. They can do whatever 'they' want to to a point. The FCC does have it's limits of power, as pointed out by Congress. Also, the FCC should be careful not to step on the ITU's toes in the mean time.
You're still not getting the point, though your reply was entertaining to say the least. I'm not arguing against the FCC's power to make policies, or the ARRL's (or anyone's) ability to file proposals. I'm just saying that a lot of HAMs don't feel that a change like this needed. Deal with it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
73, Jay KE5NRH
edited for spelling.
n9lya
05-04-2007, 12:44 PM
Quote[/b] (N5LRZ @ May 03 2007,10:16)]PSSSST Jerry...
Just in case you missed the RULES of voting. #To elect a board member he has to be IN your district and YOU have to be a PAID up member. #
The ARRL is a PRIVATE ORGANIZATON licensed and chartered as a PRIVATE Not Profit if I remember correctly.
Hence the votes of NON paid members DO NOT count.
IF YOU ARE who you say you are then YOU of all people should know this.
I understand what you are saying..
But this poll is not a VOTE
And the ARRL has never had a VOTE or a POLL on this subject..
Just an email in your comments..
Let the ARRL take a vote.. No matter how it turns out the reality is the FCC does accept comments from All HAMS..
Thanks jerry
n9lya
05-04-2007, 12:47 PM
Quote[/b] (N5LRZ @ May 03 2007,23:10)]Re NRH....
It is the legal right of the ARRL to make proposals it deems fit and proper on behalf of itself and its membership to the FCC for changes it deems desirable be it majority or minority.
It is the legal right of those 'outside' the ARRL Orgainzation to to make proposals that any individual or group of individuals #deem to be reasonable and necessary be they majority or miniroity.
It is the legal right once proposal is made and formal debate opened by the FCC that any and all parties can make comments either pro or con on any topic so opened by the FCC for comments. #Sidebar: the FCC, for the new guys and gals, can completely throw out any suggestion or suggestions for change if it so wishes.
Ultimately it will be the FCC who will be the judge, the jury and #the high executioner on ultimate standing of the/any proposal regardless of majority or minority proposing it--outright refusal of debate, rejecting the proposal in total after debate, accepted as is and adopted into radio law, or good idea and #accepted but ammended by the FCC as to specific content.
NOW IF any amateur does not like the system of rules and regulation making they still have two options open to them/both of which lead to the same place. # One can always just turn in your license to the FCC asking that it be voided. #OR one can just sell all their equipment and get out of the hobby entirely letting their license lapse into oblvion--as many have done in the past.
IF one is smart they learn to adapt to change, to go with the flow, to LEARN new stuff. #Smart people change and adapt even if the reason is that they have to change--even if it is agains their personal wishes. #To adapt and gut it out is difficult at times I admit, but in the long run its the best decision/policy.
This proposal has been made inspite of the fact that MOST members are against it...
Yet the ARRL claims otherwise and refused to let the results of any types of polls be public.. So what they are a private club... For that reason they should be required to present their evidence when making wild claims like... A majority of members are in favor.. What good came of that is the comments left with the FCC show the exact opposite...
They can deem whatever they wish.. I just wish they would quit deeming a majoprity of members are in favor when they are OBVIOUSLY NOT...
73 jerry
W3MIV
05-04-2007, 01:03 PM
Quote[/b] (n9lya @ May 04 2007,07:47)]This proposal has been made inspite of the fact that MOST members are against it...
There is no objective proof of that, and this is part of the problem.
Unless and until some actual measure of the views of the membership of the ARRL is made, the League can just as accurately state that "a majority supports" something as you can assert that the "majority opposes" it.
That is why it is important to urge the ARRL to seek some means of testing and evaluating member views on very important issues.
n9lya
05-04-2007, 01:53 PM
Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ May 04 2007,01:03)]Quote[/b] (n9lya @ May 04 2007,07:47)]This proposal has been made inspite of the fact that MOST members are against it...
There is no objective proof of that, and this is part of the problem.
Unless and until some actual measure of the views of the membership of the ARRL is made, the League can just as accurately state that "a majority supports" something as you can assert that the "majority opposes" it.
That is why it is important to urge the ARRL to seek some means of testing and evaluating member views on very important issues.
The FCC Comments period clearly shows that a Majorityu of members and Non Member are against the proposal...
Why the heck u think they pulled it...
the evidence is clear and reviewable at the FCC Website at least up until they pulled the proposal...
The ARRL will do as they wish... but my opinion is they abused their rightys the last time and EYES will be on them this time... They can be open with their info or they can be closed... I sugest they be more open..
73 Jerry N9LYA
Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ May 03 2007,16:31)]Sent a copy of the GL email to Henry Leggette the Delta Division Director.
Mr. Leggette responded almost immediately saying he was indeed going to do the same thing in the near future here in the Delta Division.
KD6NIG
05-04-2007, 03:59 PM
Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ May 04 2007,06:03)]Quote[/b] (n9lya @ May 04 2007,07:47)]This proposal has been made inspite of the fact that MOST members are against it...
There is no objective proof of that, and this is part of the problem.
Unless and until some actual measure of the views of the membership of the ARRL is made, the League can just as accurately state that "a majority supports" something as you can assert that the "majority opposes" it.
That is why it is important to urge the ARRL to seek some means of testing and evaluating member views on very important issues.
Precisely.
It could very well be they withdrew the petition. They will solict comments from the membership at large. They could then file them in "file 13" or the "round file," say whatever they want thier agenda to be is what the membership majority said, and resubmit the proposal, verbatim.
Or they could listen to the suggestions and craft one that would give the winlink crowd a little more room, but also take everyones wants/needs/opinions into account.
Lets hope for the latter.
EDIT: I wonder if they are polling the membership because of the bad publicity, or I'm wondering if their membership numbers took a hit the past month or so.