Hams and illegal radios...

[KC4RAN]

A discussion was going around not too long ago, about illegal radios and their impact on the hobby. The radios, sometimes called "export" radios, are marketed as 10-meter radios by the manufacturers.

At that time, I basically warned that there would be many people who will be upgrading their privileges and looking for inexpensive radios capable of using their new 10 meter privileges.

Well, here ya go (http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=5;t=151550)... the perfect example of what I was talking about. I'm not picking on the individual, I'm simply pointing out that the manufacturers making the crap radios with little or no bandpass filtering, sometimes modified before you get your hands on it (golden screwdrivers)... the manufacturers aren't making these things to the same specs as the JR-KenYaeComs of the world. IMD? Who cares!? It sells!

Unfortunately, no one has put out any sort of article warning about these radios, explaining about why they're poor choices. The new/upgrading hams are not educated enough to know anything about it, and it's not really their fault. They need help from the hobby as a whole (to help educate them), from the FCC (to advise them of the legal consequences), and from retailers (to explain why to buy a better radio).

[ky5u]

Well the problem is that alot of upgrade candidates already have these rigs and use them on "freeband" or whatever. It's going to be hard to wean them off of the junk. The FCC crackdown on CB linears and freeband radios is only going to drive them to Amateur where they can shoot skip after passing a 35 question gimme test.

[wa4ilh]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ April 03 2007,11:49)]Unfortunately, no one has put out any sort of article warning about these radios, explaining about why they're poor choices. The new/upgrading hams are not educated enough to know anything about it, and it's not really their fault. They need help from the hobby as a whole (to help educate them), from the FCC (to advise them of the legal consequences), and from retailers (to explain why to buy a better radio).
Just because they're new hams doesn't mean they're stupid. If I went out and bought any consumer product that was a "no name" and it didn't work, I would be at fault for buying the cheapest thing I could find. BTW, I have bought "junk" that didn't work well if at all. (even my first automobile) Who was to blame? Me. Now I buy name brands, Kenwood, Icom, maybe even an Yaseu.
Tom WA4ILH

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ April 03 2007,14:43)]Well the problem is that alot of upgrade candidates already have these rigs and use them on "freeband" or whatever. #It's going to be hard to wean them off of the junk. #The FCC crackdown on CB linears and freeband radios is only going to drive them to Amateur where they can shoot skip after passing a 35 question gimme test.
That's what scares me. I could swear I've already heard some of them on the lower bands.

[ai4ep]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Hey I am proof that those tests are way too easy.

1) C B operator from 1969 till around 2005

2) born and live in Alabama

then I took the General & Extra tests ( only missed 3 on the EXTRA exam ) , so I am proof positive that the tests are way too easy.

{ simple & to the point }


...next !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ki4pap]

I am going to have to agree with ilh on this. I think most new hams are smart enough to see a crap trucker galaxy "10 meter" radio is not a good choice. especially when most hams
talk about thier equipment alot and i have never heard anybody talk about using export radios.

[ai4ep]

pap --- you DO have a point...how many folks are going to brag asnd say they have a " 10 meter GALAXY / VOYAGER / what ever the newest brand names are for this week / ??

Obviously they wont and dont.

Personally I dont spend much time on 10 meters ( too much on 75 meters and 39 meter religious broadcasters ), so I may not know what I aint missing....I guess I COULD spend less time here and more listening to 10 meters...{ idea which some of you might approve of...or if I was co-ordinated enough, I could listen to 10 meters and type at the same time , like some of yoou fine folks do }.

73 s

[K8AG]

What worries me is that at some point the FCC may take our transmitter construction and modification privs away because the bulk of hams are not technically capable of making mods.

Business loves a consumer. Especially an ignorant one.

73, JP, K8AG

[W5HTW]

I think that is a real possibility, though I don't see it on the immediate horizon. It is very clear, though, that amateur radio is no longer a technical hobby. Unles we redefine the word "technical" to mean booting up the computer, or cutting a dipole. The days when we understood what was really happening inside a radio are gone. One day the FCC may realize this. If it does, it will relegate us to type certified radios that we are prohibited from modifying. If they ever open their eyes and see just how far from "technical" we have "progressed," there are any number of things that could happen Like becoming all channelized, for example, or having power reductions to a maximum of 200 watts.

And like issuing licenses the way they did for CB. Fill out a form, send in your bucks and be immediately licensed. And I honestly think that is a very real possibility, within say 5 to 8 years.

Certainly there are exceptions to the amateur who knows nothing except how to screw in the antenna and press the mic button. Some, a few, hams are very technically adept. But they are definitely a minority, and a very small minority at that. If ham radio goes into further regulation, those hams are the ones who will suffer, of course, for they are the ones who like to play with the technical side, and that won't be permitted.

For the moment, the FCC is not overly concerned, as after all they are like Radio Shack - you've got problems, we have cell phones. But one day the FCC may turn its eye once again on the realities of amateur radio, and if they do, they are in for a big surprise!

Ed

[ai4ep]

...so what happens when the FCC finds out that most of you dont know as much as you are supposed to >>>> ?

[nz3m]

"Now farewell to you, ye fine Spanish ladies,
Now farewell to you, ye ladies of Spain,
For we've received orders to sail for old England,
And perhaps we may never more see you again."

[w2vw]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ April 03 2007,11:49)]Unfortunately, no one has put out any sort of article warning about these radios, explaining about why they're poor choices. The new/upgrading hams are not educated enough to know anything about it, and it's not really their fault. They need help from the hobby as a whole (to help educate them), from the FCC (to advise them of the legal consequences), and from retailers (to explain why to buy a better radio).
Do you have data to support any claim that export CB radios would transmit a defective signal? If so which models should be avoided? How can a new ham tell an illegal radio from a legal one?

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (w2vw @ April 03 2007,17:26)]Do you have data to support any claim that export CB radios would transmit a defective signal? If so which models should be avoided? How can a new ham tell an illegal radio from a legal one?
It's not easy to tell the illegal ones from the legal ones. There are lists out there, but they're at sites like swap.qth.com and the like. Like I said, part of the problem is that no one in the industry is educating the public, and the FCC certainly isn't.

Easy way to get an idea is to search on Google for "FCC citation" and add Galaxy or Magnum or RCI.... many lists of radios that have been explicitly deemed illegal for sale or advertisement.

As for the transmission of defective signals, I personally don't have any data, because no magazine that I'm aware of has done a technical review of one of these 'export' radios. I seriously doubt that they will, and I also doubt that the manufacturers will release any sort of technical data of the nature we're looking for.

[K3VR]

You can use whatever you want on amateur bands as long as whatever you're using complies with part 97 for spectral purity, etc., but are the CB type 10/11 meter radios trash? I've never owned/used one. See the list below...


Notice of Apparent Liability:

CB distributor RAMKO is apparently liable for $150,000 for marketing 16 models of non-certified radio transceivers capable of being easily modified to transmit on the Chicken Band.

History

On November 26, 2001, the Enforcement Bureau's ("Bureau") Dallas, Texas Field Office ("Dallas Office") issued a Citation to Ramko for illegally marketing 41 models of non-certified "10-meter" CB radio transceivers.

In 2006, the Bureau's Spectrum Enforcement Division ("Division") received a July 2005 Ramko flyer ("2005 flyer") Ramko was advertising the following 16 models of 10-meter radios in a flyer on its website:

Connex models 3300, 3300HP, and 4800HPE; Galaxy models DX33, DX44, DX55, DX66, DX77, DX88, DX99 and DX2517; General models Jackson and Lee; Magnum models Delta Force and Mini Mag; and Superstar model 121.

Marketing and/or selling uncertified transceivers is illegal. These 16 models were specifically identified by the Bureau in the 2001 Citation as devices that could easily be altered for use as CB devices and therefore they could not be lawfully marketed in the United States.

Radios that are illegal to market and sell (http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2007/FCC-07-49A1.html)

[KE4YGS]

Any radio which can or easily be moded to transmit on both 10M and C.B. is flat out illegal. #Its as illegal to have a Ham Radio that transmits on C.B. and it is to have a C.B. radio that transmits on a ham band.

There is a good writeup of a finding by the FCC on this. #Pretty long but very plain and simple language.

Scotty

[K3VR]

You can legally own a ham radio that transmits anywhere DC to Daylight -- but you can't use it to transmit out of the ham bands. Doing so would be illegal unless you were in a life threatening situation.

You can't, as a CBer, use a CB set that transmits on the ham bands, draws more than 5 watts input on AM, has a variable VFO, etc. That set would violate type acceptance laws.

[kn4ds]

Quote[/b] (K3VR @ April 03 2007,21:22)]has a variable VFO
From the Department of Redundancy Department?

Don't recall seeing an invariable VFO, unless ya count some of the folks on 75m who've superglued theirs. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[ve2nsm]

Quote[/b] (KE4YGS @ April 03 2007,22:13)]Any radio which can or easily be moded to transmit on both 10M and C.B. is flat out illegal.
No it's not.

[KE4YGS]

Its illegal to import, its illegal to sell and its illegal to use, what would YOU call it?

[K3VR]

Dave, FU. That's the vanity call I'd like to get. Can you imagine the pileups? However, K3FU is taken, so I'll stick with what I got. Oh, btw, I meant to write variable frequency oscillator but got sidetracked by the wx forecast. It was in the high 70's today. By Friday the high's gonna be 31.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

How many of these budget 10 meter/illegal cb sets are on 10 meters right now?

[ve2nsm]

Quote[/b] (KE4YGS @ April 03 2007,22:54)]Its illegal to import, its illegal to sell and its illegal to use, what would YOU call it?
In the US it's illegal to sale yes, illegal to import I'm not sure, and illegal to use definitely not... why?

[K3VR]

You can use any radio you want to use on the ham bands (as long as it's spectrally clean) even if it is capable of transmitting on the Chicken Band. You can't use it on the Chicken Band though, because it's not type accepted.

[KE4YGS]

Can not be "Type Accepted" or now "Certified" according to 97 and other FCC rules. and equipment must be approved by the FCC to use. #Is this wrong in some way?

I know full well of the older stuff that was general coverage just like receivers but I "guess" that stuff is granfathered in someway. #But if a Tx will Tx both CB and 10M its illegal to use it on either, licensed operator or not.

There was an FCC finding posted here last night that was about as clear as crystal about it. #Let me see if I can find it again.

[VE7NOT]

Quote[/b] (KE4YGS @ April 03 2007,19:08)]Can not be "Type Accepter" or now "Certified" according to 97 and other FCC rules. and equipment must be approved by the FCC to use. Is this wrong in some way?

I know full well of the older stuff that was general coverage just like receivers but I "guess" that stuff is granfathered in someway. But if a Tx will Tx both CB and 10M its illegal to use it on either, licensed operator or not.

There was an FCC finding posted here last night that waws about as clear as crystal about it. Let me see if I can find it again.
Wrong! Otherwise we would have no 10m beacons.

[KE4YGS]

Well since I can't find the thread I read here last night with the entire text of the FCC finding in it I can't point to it.

Obviously I have no clue what I am talking about. Just hope some new ham doesnt get the wrong idea and then get into trouble unwittingly.

I'm not in charge of making anyone believe anything, so I have no vested interest in this thread. Do as you believe is right.

[ve2nsm]

Quote[/b] (KE4YGS @ April 03 2007,23:08)]Can not be "Type Accepted" or now "Certified" according to 97 and other FCC rules. and equipment must be approved by the FCC to use. Is this wrong in some way?

I know full well of the older stuff that was general coverage just like receivers but I "guess" that stuff is granfathered in someway. But if a Tx will Tx both CB and 10M its illegal to use it on either, licensed operator or not.

There was an FCC finding posted here last night that was about as clear as crystal about it. Let me see if I can find it again.
Ok, now your rig is probably illegal too because it's easily modifiable to transmit out of the amateur bands _hence on the CB band_.
Basically EVERY HF tranceiver built in the last 20 years can be very easily modified for this... are they illegal?

Oh, and don't forget to send all these homebrew rigs for inspection to the FCC as well!!!

This subject has been beaten to death already, make a little research http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[K9STH]

Several things:

First of all, it is NOT illegal for an amateur to modify a CB type radio for use on 10 meters so long as he/she either has a General Class or higher license to use it on AM. A Novice or Technician Class can use an SSB CB radio so long as the frequency of use is between 28.300 MHz and 28.500 MHz. However, it is illegal to then use the radio on the CB frequencies.

It IS legal for an amateur radio operator to modify a 10 meter radio to cover the 11 meter band. HOWEVER, it is illegal for that radio to transmit into an antenna on the 11 meter band. It is legal to receive. Also, it is legal to transmit using such a modified radio as the intermediate frequency for a transverter so long as the frequency is not placed "on the air" directly.

The "5 watt" limit has not been in force for CB operations for several decades. The original power limitations were 5 watts carrier INPUT power. However, those regulations were changed to 4 watts OUTPUT power for an AM carrier and 12 watts peak power output for SSB.

Not all of the radios that were manufactured for 10 meters that can be easily modified for 11 meters are junk. Among others the Uniden HR-2510 definitely meets the technical standards of 47 CFR Part 97 IF someone hasn't "tweaked" it with the "golden screwdriver". That particular radio was added to the "no no" list because so many were having the resistor added that added 26.000 MHz to 28.000 MHz to the existing 28.000 MHz to 29.6999 MHz coverage. I have 2 of the HR-2510 radios including one that I purchased new several years before they were added to the "no no" list! The other one I acquired had the "golden screwdriver" applied and it required some extensive realignment to get it where it again met the technical standards of 47 CFR Part 97.

Now many of the radios that can be easily modified for 11 meter use definitely have problems meeting the requirements of 47 CFR Part 97 especially after any modifications to increase the frequency coverage are made. The intended market for these, of course, is not the amateur radio operator but the "freebander" and those who operate illegally on the CB bands. Saying that they are a 10 meter or 10/12 meter radio was just an attempt to get around the FCC type-acceptance regulations for CB operation. It didn't take the FCC that long to "get wise" to the marketing "ploys" and make retail sales of these types of units illegal.

Glen, K9STH

[K3VR]

There's no type acceptance for ham transceivers. There is type acceptance for CB transceivers.

Let's say I own an FT-1000D and I do the "wide transmit mod" so it transmits from 1.5 mHz to 30 mHz continuously. Let's say I did that so I could use 60 meters.

The radio now transmits on CB, yet it is still completely legal to own and to operate -- on the HAM bands. If I put it in the 27 mHz range, that would be illegal, because it's not a Type Accepted CB set for class D citizens band operation.

On the other hand, if I pick up an illegal "export" rig that operates on ham and CB frequencies, it is illegal to use on CB, because like the FT-1000D, it is not type accepted for use on CB. However, I can use it on 10 meters all day, providing my emissions are clean.

The prohibition on these "export" rigs is their marketing and sale in the US -- because they are not type accepted for use on CB, and the FCC has determined that they are easily modifiable and therefore ineligible for type acceptance and sale and marketing.

Just remember, you can USE whatever you want on the ham bands, as long as it's clean, but you HAVE to use ONLY type accepted stuff in the 11m band.

[VE7NOT]

Quote[/b] (K3VR @ April 03 2007,19:20)]There's no type acceptance for ham transceivers. There is type acceptance for CB transceivers.

Let's say I own an FT-1000D and I do the "wide transmit mod" so it transmits from 1.5 mHz to 30 mHz continuously. Let's say I did that so I could use 60 meters.

The radio now transmits on CB, yet it is still completely legal to own and to operate -- on the HAM bands. If I put it in the 27 mHz range, that would be illegal, because it's not a Type Accepted CB set for class D citizens band operation.

On the other hand, if I pick up an illegal "export" rig that operates on ham and CB frequencies, it is illegal to use on CB, because like the FT-1000D, it is not type accepted for use on CB. However, I can use it on 10 meters all day, providing my emissions are clean.

The prohibition on these "export" rigs is their marketing and sale in the US -- because they are not type accepted for use on CB, and the FCC has determined that they are easily modifiable and therefore ineligible for type acceptance and sale and marketing.

Just remember, you can USE whatever you want on the ham bands, as long as it's clean, but you HAVE to use ONLY type accepted stuff in the 11m band.
Yes this is why your hear boaters using their hf rigs on the ham bands and jet pilots using their hf rigs on the ham bands as well. (provided they have a license) They can use the marine or air hf radio for ham bands.

[K3VR]

Quote[/b] ]Yes this is why your hear boaters using their hf rigs on the ham bands and jet pilots using their hf rigs on the ham bands as well. (provided they have a license) They can use the marine or air hf radio for ham bands.

Yes, and once I heard a guy driving a train, high on cocaine... it was a KC something. I forget. Anyhow, you get the picture.

[KE4YGS]

Good explanation K3VR, much better than I could do off the top of my head. #Clear and even makes good sense. #Thanks http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I still cant find that thread post from last night. The Thread title was "Its about time" I believe. Just seems to have vanished into thin air.

[K3VR]

Quote[/b] ]Good explanation K3VR, much better than I could do off the top of my head. #Clear and even makes good sense. #Thanks


You're welcome buddy. It's tough to keep track of some of the rules because some of them have evolved over time to solve problems, but the law of unintended consequences often pops up and seems to interfere with reason and rationality.

[ka5piu]

Hello.

There is nothing wrong with some of the ten meter rigs out of the box.
Both the HR2510 and the 2950 are good mono band radios.
http://incolor.inebraska.com/jshorney/2510.htm
http://www.chipswitch.com/hr2510.htm
http://www.rangerusa.com/rci-29dx.html
Note that I said, out of the box.
I have a 2950 that is never to be put on the air ever again, a reminder of what the golden screwdriver can do.
If there is something I want for a CB, perhaps a truckstop may have it, but CB shops are out of the question.

[ka0gkt]

Radios don't operate illegally, operators operate illegally.

73 DE KAØGKT/7

--Steve

[n6yg]

Quote[/b] ]Yes this is why your hear boaters using their hf rigs on the ham bands and jet pilots using their hf rigs on the ham bands as well. (provided they have a license) They can use the marine or air hf radio for ham bands.

Very well said. One thing sailors absolutely hate is when people illegal use ham gear on the Marine HF bands. Instead of spending the money on a dedicated Marine HF rig its very common for hams to cut corners and use something like an Icom 706 on the marine HF bands. Besides being illegal, most commercial ham gear sold in the last 10 years or so has terrible IMD figures as compared to commercial Marine HF transceivers. What's amazing is most of ARRL reviewers actually pretend like the measurements are good. Some of the worst transceivers out there are the small DC to daylight rigs like the Icom 706. Compare an Icom 706's IMD figures to any Marine HF rig, It's worse then the difference between a cheap CB and a $10,000 Icom. Why do you think we have such a high noise floor on the HF Ham bands? its all the cheap ham gear raising the noise floor.. If Ham gear was required to meet the same standard as other commercial HF gear, the noise floor on HF would be a LOT lower.

[w3scm]

W2VW asks: "Do you have data to support any claim that export CB radios would transmit a defective signal? If so which models should be avoided? How can a new ham tell an illegal radio from a legal one? "

You want "data" to tell which rigs splatter all over the place? Get about 10KC away from one on the band.

Otherwise, the simple answer is: if it ain't from a company that advertises in QST, CQ, etc., don't buy it.

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ April 03 2007,20:39)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ April 03 2007,13:43)]Well the problem is that alot of upgrade candidates already have these rigs and use them on "freeband" or whatever. It's going to be hard to wean them off of the junk. The FCC crackdown on CB linears and freeband radios is only going to drive them to Amateur where they can shoot skip after passing a 35 question gimme test.
http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/beatdeadhorse.gifhttp://smiley.onegreatguy.net/boohoo.gif
I think it's time to change the tune and quit beating the horse.
Yep, I need to quit beating you. Your're dead. And of course on my post you're welcomed to prove me wrong.

.... I didn't think so..

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (ka0gkt @ April 03 2007,23:02)]Radios don't operate illegally, operators operate illegally.

73 DE KAØGKT/7

--Steve
The operators can operate illegally, and the radio itself can be illegal for sale... at the same time, independent of one another.

[KM5FL]

Quote[/b] (KE4YGS @ April 03 2007,21:35)]Good explanation K3VR, much better than I could do off the top of my head. #Clear and even makes good sense. #Thanks http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I still cant find that thread post from last night. #The Thread title was "Its about time" I believe. #Just seems to have vanished into thin air.
Is this it??

http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin....=151507 (http://www.qrz.com/ib-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=151507)


KM5FL

[WA7KKP]

Quote[/b] (K8AG @ April 03 2007,14:04)][edited] . . . the bulk of hams are not technically capable of making mods.

Business loves a consumer. #Especially an ignorant one.
You've hit the nail sqarely on the head.

50 years ago I'd say most of the hams were capable of doing their own electronic repairs; the gear was much simpler then. Not much in a simple CW transmitter . .

The electronics industry just wants to create a new "CB craze", with MILLIONS of hams out there clamoring to get the latest transceiver with DC-to-light coverage.

Only problem is that it won't happen now. Why bother with ham radio when you have cell telephones with dirt-cheap rates, and the Internet?

Gary WA7KKP

[N2NKW]

Quote[/b] (KE4YGS @ April 03 2007,21:13)]Any radio which can or easily be moded to transmit on both 10M and C.B. is flat out illegal. Its as illegal to have a Ham Radio that transmits on C.B. and it is to have a C.B. radio that transmits on a ham band.

There is a good writeup of a finding by the FCC on this. Pretty long but very plain and simple language.

Scotty
It's not illegal to modify a legal C.B. to operate on 10m. This is due to the Type Acceptance not being exceeded for 10M operation.

A legal CB that is modified to operate on 10M can only transmit using SSB and AM, both of which are legal modes on 10M and fall into the type acceptance. (AM being limited to general class licensee or higher which has already been discussed.)
An AM only modified CB would only legally be allowed to be operated by a General class or higher op.

Now taking a legal 10M all mode radio and modifying it to operate on CB would be illegal as it would have the ability to operate FM. That would violate the type acceptance of the CB band.

Please notice the term legal. That is the clincher. There is no such thing as a legal All Mode CB radio.

[w2vw]

Quote[/b] (w3scm @ April 04 2007,06:10)]You want "data" to tell which rigs splatter all over the place? Get about 10KC away from one on the band.

Otherwise, the simple answer is: if it ain't from a company that advertises in QST, CQ, etc., don't buy it.
10 kc away with what? Test gear? Another ham rig? How is this test run. Please provide some numbers so we can educate new hams who want to know.

[kn4ds]

Quote[/b] (N2NKW @ April 04 2007,17:04)]Now taking a legal 10M all mode radio and modifying it to operate on CB would be illegal as it would have the ability to operate FM. That would violate the type acceptance of the CB band.

Please notice the term legal. That is the clincher. There is no such thing as a legal All Mode CB radio.
I'm under the impression that I cannot use my FT-101s on 11m, since they're not type accepted for that band... even if I keep the power within the legal limit.

They've got the band switch position, and they have crystals for 11m. They also only do AM or SSB (or CW). There's no FM.

But they aren't legal for use on 11m, as I understand it.

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (KE4UWL @ April 04 2007,20:23)]Quote[/b] (N2NKW @ April 04 2007,17:04)]Now taking a legal 10M all mode radio and modifying it to operate on CB would be illegal as it would have the ability to operate FM. That would violate the type acceptance of the CB band.

Please notice the term legal. #That is the clincher. #There is no such thing as a legal All Mode CB radio.
I'm under the impression that I cannot use my FT-101s on 11m, since they're not type accepted for that band... even if I keep the power within the legal limit.

They've got the band switch position, and they have crystals for 11m. #They also only do AM or SSB (or CW). #There's no FM.

But they aren't legal for use on 11m, as I understand it.
That's true, they can't legally be used on 11 meters but that hasn't stopped anyone since they first became available. Half or more of the old FT-101's I see on E-bay were used on CB..

[N2NKW]

Quote[/b] (KE4UWL @ April 04 2007,20:23)]Quote[/b] (N2NKW @ April 04 2007,17:04)]Now taking a legal 10M all mode radio and modifying it to operate on CB would be illegal as it would have the ability to operate FM. That would violate the type acceptance of the CB band.

Please notice the term legal. That is the clincher. There is no such thing as a legal All Mode CB radio.
I'm under the impression that I cannot use my FT-101s on 11m, since they're not type accepted for that band... even if I keep the power within the legal limit.

They've got the band switch position, and they have crystals for 11m. They also only do AM or SSB (or CW). There's no FM.

But they aren't legal for use on 11m, as I understand it.
It isn't type accepted because the transmitter is designed to have variable power output that exceeds 4w tx, 7w modulation and 12w ssb. This rig was sold with only one 6JS6C final amplifier tube, with a normal rated power of 10 watts, and 50 PEP. That violates the T/A for CB.

About the CW and CB, can anyone else fill in if CW is legal on CB? I know you could use a code oscillator and key the mic down and op CW that way. Is the full CW mode legal on CB? I seem to remember reading somewhere that CW A1A supposedly is the only mode legally allowed on ALL frequencies D.C. to daylight. Is this true?

[ttevault]

Quote[/b] (KE4YGS @ April 02 2007,20:13)]Any radio which can or easily be moded to transmit on both 10M and C.B. is flat out illegal. #Its as illegal to have a Ham Radio that transmits on C.B. and it is to have a C.B. radio that transmits on a ham band.

There is a good writeup of a finding by the FCC on this. #Pretty long but very plain and simple language.

Scotty
Scotty, Well put. Except Why can it be that a lot of Hams are heard on the SSB 27.225 talking with Ham equipment and telling everybody who might be listening '"Hey how does this Kenwood or Icon sound". Let alone jumping back up to the ten meter band when the conditions change to catch the long distant ones.

[KE4YGS]

I guess ethics is a personal thing. It isn't what ya do when you are bing watched, it is what you do when nobody else will know the difference.

Scotty

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (KE4YGS @ April 03 2007,20:35)]Good explanation K3VR, much better than I could do off the top of my head. Clear and even makes good sense. Thanks http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I still cant find that thread post from last night. The Thread title was "Its about time" I believe. Just seems to have vanished into thin air.
VGS:
The thread was about a "seller" getting fined by the FCC for repeatedly selling radios that were CB capable or easily modifiable, and thus denied FCC certification. (There's no longer any such animal as "type acceptance." The ease of use or modification on CB is the de facto reason for the FCC not granting certification; the quality of the radio does NOT matter. It's signal could be as pure as the driven snow, or as dirty as bituminus coal; all that the FCC looks at FIRST is frequency coverage or potential coverage with simple modification.
It IS illegal to sell, advertise, etc. any radio on the FCC's list IN THE U.S. It is apparently not illegal to purchase and/or use such a radio in other countries or by foreign Amateurs. If such a radio is legally obtained (e.g. in another country) and subsequently brought into this country by a private individual, it is NOT illegal. And such a radio may then be sold from one amateur to another, or to a dealer, legally.
The FCC certified list (and non-certified "banned" list) apply to retail or wholesale sales of new equipment, not used equipment or personal sales between individual Amateurs.

Yes, it's "about time." Actually, it's FCC action that's long overdue.

[K3VR]

"CB radio transceivers are subject to the equipment certification process and must be certified and properly labeled prior to being marketed or sold in the United States. Unlike CB radio transceivers, radio transmitting equipment that transmits solely on Amateur Radio Service ("ARS") frequencies is not subject to equipment authorization requirements prior to manufacture or marketing.

However, some radio transmitters that transmit in a portion of the 10-meter band of the ARS (28.000 to 29.700 MHz) are equipped with rotary, toggle, or pushbutton switches mounted externally on the unit, which allow operation in the CB bands after completion of minor and trivial internal modifications to the equipment. To address these radios, the Commission adopted changes to the CB type acceptance requirements by defining a "CB Transmitter" as "a transmitter that operates or is intended to operate at a station authorized in the CB."

Section 95.655(a) of the Rules also states that no transmitter will be certificated for use in the CB service if it is equipped with a frequency capability not listed in Section 95.625 of the Rules (CB transmitter channel frequencies). Also, the Commission's Office of General Counsel ("OGC") released a letter on the importation and
marketing of ARS transmitters, which clarified that transmitters that "have a built-in capacity to operate on CB frequencies and can easily be altered to activate that capacity, such as by moving or removing a jumper plug or cutting a single wire" fall within the definition of "CB transmitter" under Section 95.603© of the Rules and therefore require certification prior to marketing or importation.

Additionally, the Commission's Office of Engineering and Technology ("OET") has evaluated the models at issue here and has determined that these devices could easily be altered for use as CB transceivers.

VANCE Forfeiture March 16, 2007
NAL/Acct. No.: 200632900005

Forfeiture Order (http://www.fcc.gov/eb/Orders/2007/DA-07-1313A1.html)

[ky5u]

Cliff Notes:

"Big Gun" in Amateur means a great antenna, radio and amp giving you superior performance.

"Big Gun" on CB means being low caliber and emense bore.

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ April 05 2007,05:45)]# #It IS illegal to sell, advertise, etc. any radio on the FCC's list IN THE U.S. #It is apparently not illegal to purchase and/or use such a radio in other countries or by foreign Amateurs. #If such a radio is legally obtained (e.g. in another country) and subsequently brought into this country by a private individual, it is NOT illegal. #And such a radio may then be sold from one amateur to another, or to a dealer, #legally.
I believe 'importation' is on that list of prohibited actions with regards to these radios. I don't believe there's a way to legally bring it in to the US, even as an individual.

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ April 05 2007,10:01)]Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ April 05 2007,05:45)] It IS illegal to sell, advertise, etc. any radio on the FCC's list IN THE U.S. It is apparently not illegal to purchase and/or use such a radio in other countries or by foreign Amateurs. If such a radio is legally obtained (e.g. in another country) and subsequently brought into this country by a private individual, it is NOT illegal. And such a radio may then be sold from one amateur to another, or to a dealer, legally.
I believe 'importation' is on that list of prohibited actions with regards to these radios. I don't believe there's a way to legally bring it in to the US, even as an individual.
§97.315(b)(3) and (4) says certification rules do not apply if the equipment is homebrew, modified for Amateur use, or sold by an Amateur to another Amateur.
WHile that section applies to external power amplifiers, it would seem reasonable to think it also applies to transmitters, which are not certified for Amateur use.
We disagree on perhaps semantics. In the context of the FCC rule, where sale, advertisement for sale or lease, or importation would seem logically to apply to an intent to import quantities for retail sale.
Importation in that context doesn't seem to apply to an individual unit that is already privately owned, particularly by a properly licensed individual. (If a Mexican Amateur brought one into the country do you think he/she would be charged with "importation" of a non-certified transmitter? (Assuming they weren't coming in with a truckload of the units.)
The whole certification issue involves what new equipment is or is not allowed to enter the U.S. for ultimate sale on the retail scale. That is why there is even a stipulation that a certain (small) number of units may be built/imported to allow for certification testing.

And the Part 97 rules DO say that private sales between hams or ham to dealer is permissible when it comes to any type of amplifier, whether it has any kind of certification or not.

[ttevault]

Quote[/b] (KE4YGS @ April 03 2007,22:42)]I guess ethics is a personal thing. #It isn't what ya do when you are bing watched, it is what you do when nobody else will know the difference.

Scotty
I'm sorry Scotty *I guess Ishould have addressed this to you first! It sounds like if you don't get caught it dosen't matter where you transmit its ok!Well maybe I should get me a ham radio and bug the bands with Illigal call letters and see how long I would get by !!! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[KC4RAN]

I see the FCC saying "this item shall not be sold to people in the US, advertised for sale to people in the US, or brought into the US".

I don't see "except for licensed amateurs to do good things with" on the end of anything.

I see the manufacturers trying everything they can to still build the "10-meter" radios, winkwinknudgenudge. "Export" radios, not to be sold in the US, being bought by US hams... and then the purchase somehow defended as legal?

Go ahead and support these crap manufacturers and their slimy tactics if you want. Hey, better still, go out and buy a Davemade instead of an Alpha the next time you're looking for an amplifier! Davemade is homebrew, and homebrew is just fine, right?

I see no difference between a ham going down to Mexico or the Phillipines and purchasing one of these Connex/Magnum/RCI radios and the dealer importing one.

The FCC intended for this radio not to be brought into the US. My/your 'good intentions' have nothing to do with that.

[KB2SEO]

The Point of the FCC was to STOP the Flow of these rigs. When I first got my License, My family could not afford a Higher Priced, HF rig. My wife got me a So called Mono Bander 10 meter rig, from Copper electronics. It was the Beacon rig for a long time.

The ebay stores are starting to catch the heat, and a few stores and even truckstops have been cited in some way or another for selling these rigs.

If more Ham s would take the time and scan the ebay offerings, and cull out these radios, it Would start to dry up. I report dozens of these rigs being sold with every Bull-story written. the bottom line is Simply writing that you need a license to operate does not clear the seller, to offer the rig is a Violations of the FCC, let's add the "FM Braodcaster" equipment on Ebay too!

We are supposed to be self policing hobby. Yet we get "It's not your problem" when we kick about the illegal rig and the operator. What we need is teeth in the law. We are starting to get some, But it's going to be a struggle.

I believe the best way to stop them is to render that band as off limits. Move the CB services to FRS and GMRS. No more cow pone phoney "CB voices, no more moronic ideas that 7000 watts into a large coiled antenna makes it "talk good"

And if the wing nuts want to put 7000 watts into a 70 cm transmitter and have the antenna next to their heads on the mirro or on the back deck- go for it-DO ME A FAVOR!

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ April 05 2007,12:08)]I see the FCC saying "this item shall not be sold to people in the US, advertised for sale to people in the US, or brought into the US".

I don't see "except for licensed amateurs to do good things with" on the end of anything.

I see the manufacturers trying everything they can to still build the "10-meter" radios, winkwinknudgenudge. "Export" radios, not to be sold in the US, being bought by US hams... and then the purchase somehow defended as legal?

Go ahead and support these crap manufacturers and their slimy tactics if you want. Hey, better still, go out and buy a Davemade instead of an Alpha the next time you're looking for an amplifier! Davemade is homebrew, and homebrew is just fine, right?

I see no difference between a ham going down to Mexico or the Phillipines and purchasing one of these Connex/Magnum/RCI radios and the dealer importing one.

The FCC intended for this radio not to be brought into the US. My/your 'good intentions' have nothing to do with that.
RAN:

The FCC's reasoning for the "ban on sales, etc." is not to prevent licensed Amateurs from having, using, owning or even purchasing such radios, it is to KEEP SUCH RADIOS OUT OF THE HANDS OF ILLEGAL, UNLICENSED "CB" operators, who would use them illegally on 10 Meters and on the frequencies between CB Channel 40 and the beginning of 10 Meters. (28.000 MHz) Many of the radios have "easy" mods that will put their "super channels" on AM or SSB square in the CW portion of 10 Meters.

And because of the ease of modifying such radios for CB and Ham, (or is that Ham and CB) the FCC denies certification to any such radio, thus making the marketing illegal IN THE US. It does NOT address the quality (or lack of quality) of any of the radios on the "banned list, It does NOT make posession illegal; or the radio illegal, just the act of selling or trying to sell such radios in the U.S. to U.S. Citizens.
Just WHERE in §Part 97 does it actually say it is illegal to posess or buy such a radio? If you are in a foreign market, and it's sold legally in that country, there should be no problem for an individual to purchase a single unit for private use, as long as the radio meets the technical standards of harmonic suppression and spectral purity for Amateur equipment. Certainly, the manufacturers use all kinds of loopholes ("Export Model, 10 Meter Radio") to get around the certification, but the FCC is finally going after some of them; actually, it's the distributors and sellers the FCC goes after; if the manufcturer's are overseas, there's little recourse the FCC has until such equipment arrives on our shores.

But I don't see anyone saying the U.S. sale of the prohibited radios to U.S. Citizens (or even U.S. residents) is permissible or legal. Clearly, it is not.

[ttevault]

OK! Now listen to this! When was the last time a good Ham rig or kit was built or produced in the U.S. A.???Why? Let me tell you. #1 we are letting cheaper equipment to be imported into the U.S.A. #2 Import radios seem to have all the bells an whistles that everybody wants. #3 this is the one that everybody doesn'twant to hear. LABOR COST!! We have let our labor cost either by union or from cost of materials to kill the good rigs from being produced and you know and I know that the "joe public" will stray to the cheapest or closest to it unit to get on the air. Check, Check,! Now as far as illegal radios,many Hams, CB'ers,SWL'ers etc. care less as long as it gets the job done. Now would you be "mister true blue HAM" or all the other people mentoned above if you could get the equipment wanted above or below the table?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Now if you want to stop this problem, why don't you right all of the Illegal sites and ask them for a response!Then if they don't respond as a law abiding Raido Operator sent a note to the FCC explaining what you have found. Enough of this kicking of each other about what you know is right or wrong!!!Show your responability. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif Now I have said my piece of info I will get off of my soap box and sit down. 73's from an old SWL'er.

[k5phw]

He said Raido. Heh heh heh.

[k5phw]

He said 73's.

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ April 06 2007,23:25)]# #Just WHERE in §Part 97 does it actually say it is illegal to posess or buy such a radio? #
It's not in Part 97. It's in the FCC citations themselves... They simply quote 2 or 3 different sections of the code to lay the groundwork for the legality of the order.

The citations quote the code very specifically. And remember, federal law tends to go broad with prohibitions, then specific with exemptions. What you should be looking for is something (like the amplifier provisions) that specifically exempt amateurs (in certain circumstances) from being subject to the orders laid out in citations like these.

Problem is, I can't find those exemptions.

[N5LRZ]

Re T guy...

Actually they dont have what the person who truly knows the qualities of a good rig wants. Those who demand a good quality rig will demand a great deal more in the line of filters (digital and otherwise) as well as all the plugs and jacks available to connect the radio to computer for CAT and Digital modes aka PSK, SSTV high def, computerized RTTY, etc.

To get a radio of this quality and convienence you have to pay BIG BIG bucks. Well at least a hell of a lot of $$$$$.

Those cheap inexpensive rigs are definately not for people who want at least a proper quality receiver, adequate filtering, and the proper number of creature comfort features.

Those cheap import rigs are a waste of money to anyone except a CBer. And I cannot blame them for liking them. They are not supposed to know better. We amateurs are supposed to know better.

N5LRZ

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ April 09 2007,15:19)]Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ April 06 2007,23:25)] Just WHERE in §Part 97 does it actually say it is illegal to posess or buy such a radio?
It's not in Part 97. It's in the FCC citations themselves... They simply quote 2 or 3 different sections of the code to lay the groundwork for the legality of the order.

The citations quote the code very specifically. And remember, federal law tends to go broad with prohibitions, then specific with exemptions. What you should be looking for is something (like the amplifier provisions) that specifically exempt amateurs (in certain circumstances) from being subject to the orders laid out in citations like these.

Problem is, I can't find those exemptions.
But it IS in Part 97!

The radios or posession is not the illegal part; it's the sale of non-certified equipment that is illegal. Which includes the FCC banned list. They can NOT be sold in the U.S. or to U.S. residents because they can be used on CB, perhaps with an easy mod, and for that reason, they will not be granted certification, and THAT makes their sale as new equipment illegal.
Look at the FCC citations. They are all for commercial sellers (even those "posing" as individuals) that are selling multiple new units for profit, not individual sales of single radios. The whole purpose of the "banned list" is to keep the radios off the Class "D" CB airwaves, and stop illegal use above the CB channels and on into 10 Meters.
I'll also take some exception to your statement that Federal Law goes broad with prohibitions, and then grants only specific exemptions.
Time and again, the FCC has said they do not want to micromanage Amateur Radio; being licensed, it's SUPPOSED to be self-policing. The FCC doesn't want to have to spell out every little detail; if they did, or had to, Amateur Radio would have been abolished a long time ago as too time-consuming and a drain on the FCC's limited resources.
The very essence of Amateur Radio has been experimentation, and the ability to use and modify for our use, any and all equipment we wish, as long as it meets the power limitations and the minimal technical standards. THAT is all the control the FCC wants to exert on AMateur Radio.

Again, look at the citations. Nowhere do the citations or their references and footnotes label the "banned radios" themselves as illegal to posess, or use; just the sale is illegal because of lack of certification.

[KG6YTZ]

Quote[/b] (ttevault @ April 09 2007,13:50)]When was the last time a good Ham rig or kit was built or produced in the U.S. A.???
Kits like these ones here, perhaps...? (http://www.elecraft.com)

[n0xas]

Quote[/b] (ttevault @ April 09 2007,14:50)]When was the last time a good Ham rig or kit was built or produced in the U.S. A.???
Umm, just yesterday.

Elecraft
Ten-Tec
Small Wonder Labs

The list goes on, and on...

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (N5LRZ @ April 09 2007,15:20)]Re T guy...

Actually they dont have what the person who truly knows the qualities of a good rig wants. Those who demand a good quality rig will demand a great deal more in the line of filters (digital and otherwise) as well as all the plugs and jacks available to connect the radio to computer for CAT and Digital modes aka PSK, SSTV high def, computerized RTTY, etc.

To get a radio of this quality and convienence you have to pay BIG BIG bucks. Well at least a hell of a lot of $$$$$.

Those cheap inexpensive rigs are definately not for people who want at least a proper quality receiver, adequate filtering, and the proper number of creature comfort features.

Those cheap import rigs are a waste of money to anyone except a CBer. And I cannot blame them for liking them. They are not supposed to know better. We amateurs are supposed to know better.

N5LRZ
I agree the radios are not the best quality, but if they meet FCC technical standards for Amateur Radio equipment, that's just a fact of life.
Sure, by examining the specs, I KNOW that a $10,000 radio is going to have a better receiver than the $1200 radio I bought 15 years ago. Does that mean I should spend half the cost of a new car just to get an acceptable radio, as you suggest? YES, BIG BUCK$ usually provides better performance; and most Amateurs do, and always have, yearned for a better piece of equipment than they have.

but how many Amateurs started out with ARC-5 mil. surplus equipment? That wasn't "state-of-the-art, BIG BUCK$ equipment, didn't have the best selectivity, ot the most sensitivity, but it WAS a starting point, until one could afford a "real" radio. When I started out, HeathKit and even KnightKit were the norm; not everyone had Collins equipment, no matter how hard they wished for it. Yes we "KNEW" Collins equipment was better than a KnightKit. But that didn't make it any more affordable or a mere dream..

Until YaeComWood, Alinco, Ten-Tec, El Craft, and others supply "real" radios in the $300-$400 range, there is a void, and even marginal quality equipment will find a market.

If you've never driven or even seen a Porsche 911, you won't know what you're missing by driving a Ford Escort.
Or should a new driver just "know" better.
As pointed out earlier by one of the moderators, some of the radios now on the "banned" list were decent, but hardly spectacular, radios for 10 Meters, without a lot of bells and whistles, and many now serve as the IF stage in Amateur microwave equipment. The SOLE reason they were banned is the ease with which they could be made to operate on CB frequencies.

[n2cfj]

Has anyone used the elecraft K2-100? How does it compare to built rigs costing 2 to 3 times as much.

If it is worth the price as an entry level rig and an educational project, it would be good for some of the people who recently got HF privileges but are not rolling in money.

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (n2cfj @ April 10 2007,14:29)]Has anyone used the elecraft K2-100? How does it compare to built rigs costing 2 to 3 times as much.

If it is worth the price as an entry level rig and an educational project, it would be good for some of the people who recently got HF privileges but are not rolling in money.
Actually, the Elecraft radio stacks up quite well. But it's still not inexpensive, and I wouldn't recommend it as a "beginner's" kit for someone who hasn't yet learned which end of a soldering iron to pick up. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Beginners should start construction (even kit construction) on simpler projects and work their way up. Not many of us LEARNED how to solder on a HeathKit SSB transceiver, and with current designs, PC boards, and components, soldering mistakes or inexperience can cause a lot more damage than the point-to-point wiring many of us started with.

(Now, if only the Elecraft included an internal 100 Watt 6 Meter option, I'd have one in an instant!)

[kc4umo]

To the newbie hams,

How to tell if the radio is an export?
Simple. Any radio that is export only works on one frequency. 28.025mhz. Turn the 40 channel knob and flip the hi low band selector and it's still on 28.025mhz. Dealers that sell these in the U.S. will not modify them. This is how they have gotten away with selling them.

Names not to buy:
Cobra DX
Galaxy
Magnum
Stryker
Connex
General
Ranger, RCI
Superstar
NorthPiont
DO NOT BUY THESE EXPORT RADIOS FOR HAM USE.

These units also have, Echo, Roger Beeb listed. Ham radios do not come with these features. These units have channel selectors at 10khz intervals instead of a VFO. Also on he back of he unit it may have a tag that says export.
All the units above have the same circuit board. These boards have no filtering. The FM boards are not true FM. On SSB they splatter over a 12 to 15 khz bandwidth.

I just wanted to throw this at the new hams so they do not waste there money and indanger the new ticket.
For what these units sell for you can buy a good used hf rig for about the same price.

[WA9SVD]

You can't go by brand name alone, either, but you have to be wary. Ranger also makes legitimate 6 Meter radios. Not the best, but perfectly legal and they meet or exceed FCC technical standards.
But the current "10 Meter" models aren't legal because they can be easily modified to transmit on CB frequencies. And the dealers are getting away with selling them, they just haven't been caught yet. But those that have been caught already do get heavy fines. Whether or not they are sold with a mod in place, if they have a "high/low" switch, the FCC considers them unacceptable for sale as new equipment in the U.S., whether they are claimed to be export models or not.
Whether or not they cause splatter is immaterial. SOME of them are decent, but certainly not spectacular radios, but they still can't legally be sold in the U.S.
But posession or use (if the radio meets FCC technical standards) by an Amateur, on the Amateur bands for which they have privileges, is not illegal.
And I'll agree, new operators would be wiser to spend a little more and get even used Amateur equipment than some radios of questionable quality.

[kc4umo]

Agreed. And thanks for the Ranger 6 meter tip. I was unaware of that.

[K4KWH]

Quote[/b] (K3VR @ April 03 2007,20:30)]Quote[/b] ]Yes this is why your hear boaters using their hf rigs on the ham bands and jet pilots using their hf rigs on the ham bands as well. (provided they have a license) #They can use the marine or air hf radio for ham bands.

Yes, and once I heard a guy driving a train, high on cocaine... it was a KC something. I forget. Anyhow, you get the picture.
How do you "drive" a train? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Where's the steering wheel? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[K4KWH]

Dealers that sell these in the U.S. will not modify them. This is how they have gotten away with selling them.

No, they don't "get away" with selling them. #They are specifically excluded by NAME on a list of banned equipment! #When FCC finds them (with a little help--hint,hint!) they'll get nailed. #Like Ramko Distributors for $150,000!!!! SIC 'em SIC 'em!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (K4KWH @ April 25 2007,14:41)]Dealers that sell these in the U.S. will not modify them. This is how they have gotten away with selling them.

No, they don't "get away" with selling them. They are specifically excluded by NAME on a list of banned equipment! When FCC finds them (with a little help--hint,hint!) they'll get nailed. Like Ramko Distributors for $150,000!!!! SIC 'em SIC 'em!http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Absolutely. They "get away" with selling them in the same sense that a bank robber "gets away" with the cash. Until they are caught, that is.

And it's a shame that fines, forfeitures, and "voluntary donations" (talk about government euphemisms!) don't go back to the FCC for enforcement, instead of going to the U.S. Treasury.

[N3ATS]

Someone here needs to come up with a common sense explanation why a "export radio" that is marketed, and labeled as a 10 meter radio is illegal in the U.S.

Now keep in mind that easily modifiable, channelized operation, and "looks like a CB" can be said of many legal HF rigs. Illegal on CB yes. Not illegal for amateur use, yet they are still illegal in the eyes of the FCC>

No one has ever been able to answer this question for me. E-Mails to the FCC have gone unanswered as well.

Any thoughts?

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ April 25 2007,16:05)]Someone here needs to come up with a common sense explanation why a "export radio" that is marketed, and labeled as a 10 meter radio is illegal in the U.S.

Now keep in mind that easily modifiable, channelized operation, and "looks like a CB" can be said of many legal HF rigs. Illegal on CB yes. Not illegal for amateur use, yet they are still illegal in the eyes of the FCC>

No one has ever been able to answer this question for me. E-Mails to the FCC have gone unanswered as well.

Any thoughts?
Try reading some of the enforcement actions of the FCC; they explain it quite well.

1. The FCC requires certification of CB radio equipment.
2. Equipment that is designed to operate on CB by an easily made modification will not receive certification.
3. CB equipment that can operate (transmit) on ANY frequency other than the specific 40 CB channels will not receive FCC certification.
4. Many of the radios that are easily modified exceed the power limits placed on CB equipment.

Sorry, but there's NO legitimate Amateur HF radio that is "channelized."

The FCC keeps a specific list of radio models that are "banned" from sale in the U.S.
WHile it's not illegal to use such radios on Amateur frequencies, (if your license allows such operation,) and the radio meets Amateur Technical Standards, it IS illegal to sell, import for sale, lease, or advertise for lease or sale any non-certified radio that is capable of operating on CB.

And short answer, is that the FCC's OET evaluates equipment before it receives certification. If the FCC SAYS it's illegal, it's illegal.

[N3ATS]

1. The radio is marketed for 10 meter use. Not CB.

2. Amateur radios do not require FCC certification. Besides ALL modern HF rigs are easily modifiable to use on CB.

3. The radios in question operate on 10 meters only from the factory.

4. See #1.

A channelized radio is not illegal for use on the amateur bands.

The question still remains. Why are "export radios" being marketed and sold as 10 meter amateur radios, considered illegal?

"If the FCC SAYS it's illegal, it's illegal." That's true. However I ask why.

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ April 25 2007,17:09)]1. #The radio is marketed for 10 meter use. #Not CB.

2. #Amateur radios do not require FCC certification. #Besides ALL modern HF rigs are easily modifiable to use on CB.

3. #The radios in question operate on 10 meters only from the factory.

4. #See #1.

A channelized radio is not illegal for use on the amateur bands.

The question still remains. #Why are "export radios" being marketed and sold as 10 meter amateur radios, considered illegal?

"If the FCC SAYS it's illegal, it's illegal." #That's true. #However I ask why.
Did you even read any of the citations? The FCC lays out exactly why, in each citation.

Quote[/b] ]
3. Section 302(b) of the Act provides “No person shall manufacture, import, sell, offer for
sale, or ship devices or home electronic equipment and systems, or use devices, which fail to comply with
regulations promulgated pursuant to this section.” Section 2.803(a)(1) of the Rules provides that “… no
person shall sell or lease, or offer for sale or lease (including advertising for sale or lease), or import, ship
or distribute for the purpose of selling or leasing or offering for sale or lease, any radio frequency device
unless: (1) In the case of a device subject to certification, such device has been authorized by the
Commission in accordance with the rules in this chapter and is properly identified and labeled….” CB
transmitters must be certified pursuant to Section 95.603© of the Rules. Eugene Dezanett d.b.a. Pro
Class Electronics offered for sale these devices in violation of both sections.
4. Eugene Dezanett d.b.a. Pro Class Electronics marketed these devices as amateur and/or
Citizens Band transceivers. The Commission has evaluated radio frequency devices similar to those
listed in paragraph 2 and concluded that the devices at issue are not only amateur radios but can easily be
altered for use as CB devices as well. A CB transmitter is a transmitter that operates or is intended to
operate at a station authorized for the CB service, and it must be certificated by the FCC prior to
marketing or importation. The Commission has further concluded that these devices fall within the
definition of a CB transmitter and therefore cannot legally be imported or marketed in the United States.
See Response from the Commission’s General Counsel to U.S. Customs Service dated May 17, 1999, 14
FCC Rcd 7797 (1999).
5. Additionally, dual use CB and amateur radios of the kind at issue here may not be
certificated under the Commission’s rules. Section 95.655(a) of the Rules states “….([CB] Transmitters
with frequency capability for the Amateur Radio Services….will not be certificated).” See also FCC 88-
256, 1988 WL488084 (August 17, 1988). This clarification was added to explicitly foreclose the
possibility of certification of dual use CB and amateur radios, see id., and thereby deter use by CB
operators of frequencies allocated for amateur radio use.



From this citation (http://swap.qth.com/fcc/fcc-citation-C20053238001.pdf)

[N3ATS]

I wasn't talking specifically about the citation. I am merely questioning the rules in general.

If I import a Galaxy 99 and sell it as a 10 meter only radio for amateur use only, how and why is this illegal? Not dual-use, not CB use, but amateur use only for the 10 meter band only.

That radio is on the "illegal" list. But the fact is, it comes from the factory being capable of operating on 10 meters only, and can be marketed as an amateur radio. Yet it is still illegal.

Keep in mind that ALL of the legal radios. ALL of them, are capable of everything this "illegal" radio can do with just as little effort.

The contradiction here is my question.

(edited for spelling and grammar)

[KC4RAN]

1) Most importantly, because the FCC says so
2) Because The Commission has evaluated radio frequency devices similar to those
listed in paragraph 2 and concluded that the devices at issue are not only amateur radios but can easily be
altered for use as CB devices as well
3) Because A CB transmitter is a transmitter that operates or is intended to
operate at a station authorized for the CB service, and it must be certificated by the FCC prior to
marketing or importation.
4) Therefore the Commission has further concluded that these devices fall within the
definition of a CB transmitter and therefore cannot legally be imported or marketed in the United States.

and


5) The FCC is calling the bluff of the manufacturers who are trying to end-run the FCC rules with regards to power output and frequency coverage. The manufacturers try to now change a few things and call them "10-meter radios", when in reality the FCC knows exactly what they are, who they're marketed towards, and what's going on. In this case, the FCC isn't dumb.

[K9STH]

ATS:

If you import one radio which you described as an individual and sold it to another individual then you have NOT broken the law. BUT, if you import more than one radio and sell them to others then you are acting as a dealer and you have broken the law.

There are radios such as the Uniden HR-2510 that were not on the "NO NO" list when they were first imported. Then it was "discovered" that they could be modified to cover 26.000 MHz to 29.6999 MHz by cutting a jumper and installing a resistor. Those radios became VERY popular for use on CB and by "freebanders". The FCC then created the list banning those radios for commercial sales in the United States. Personally, I own 2 HR-2510 units. One of these was purchased shortly after they came on the market and I got it for 10 meter mobile operation. The other one had been "golden screwdrivered" and was obtained by another amateur radio operator who wanted to use it on 10 meters. However, he couldn't get it operating correctly and I ended up with it. Fortunately, the radio was easy to get working correctly and now I have 2 of these units.

You really have to look at the intent of the manufacture of the radio. Yes, units intended for use on the amateur radio bands can be modified (some easier than others) to operate on the CB frequencies. But, those units on the "banned" list have certain characteristics like having "channels" which are a clear indication that they were designed for use other than by amateur radio operators. This, when coupled with the extreme ease it is to modify the frequency coverage shows the intent of the manufacturer for the units not to be used in the Amateur Radio Service but for other services which require certified / type accepted units.

Glen, K9STH

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (K9STH @ April 25 2007,18:02)]If you import one radio which you described as an individual and sold it to another individual then you have NOT broken the law. #BUT, if you import more than one radio and sell them to others then you are acting as a dealer and you have broken the law.
I'd be interested to see your legal basis for such a statement...

[N3ATS]

That's a pretty slippery slope.

I am quite sure the FCC knows that some of the low priced HF rigs are being used for CB. They are not type accepted for use there either. Not to mention they are also easily modifiable to use on 11 meters.

How long until our favorite HF rigs get added to the list?

See what I am saying? Every since HF rig falls into each one of those categories you mentioned.

My point is there needs to be a more defined ruling other than "because it looks like a CB".

[WA9SVD]

RAN:

Here's the wording. It applies to MARKETING, and specifically states importing for the purpose of selling or leasing equipment, not equipment obtained for personal use.

================

"Certain devices, including Citizens Band ("CB") radio transmitting
equipment, may not be marketed within the United States unless they
have been tested and found to comply with Commission technical
requirements, granted Commission certification and properly labeled.
"Marketing" includes the sale or lease, offer for sale or lease
(including advertising for sale or lease), importing, shipping, and/or
distribution for the purpose of selling or leasing or offering for
sale or lease."

=================


N3ATS:

What it boils down to is that the FCC's OET evaluates equipment submitted for certification.
===========
QUOTE: "such transmitters that "have a
built-in capability to operate on CB frequencies and can easily be
altered to activate that capability, such as by moving or removing a
jumper plug or cutting a single wire" fall within the definition of
"CB transmitter" under Section 95.603© of the Rules and therefore
require certification prior to marketing or importation."
==============

And CB transmitters must be certified to legally be marketed (sold, leased, distributed, etc.) in the U.S.
To clarify, the FCC keeps their Favorites (banned) list, with additions as it sees fit.

Now, it doesn't really matter if you (or I, or anyone else) do not agree with the FCC in the matter; their decision IS explained, and it IS the law. (As Ramko Distributors recently learned, to the tune of $150,000.)

[wv6z]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ April 24 2007,19:05)]I'd be interested to see your legal basis for such a statement...
Gee Whiz, you just don't give up, or does it just not sink in?..... what Glen is telling you IS the legal basis, period. Good grief, what is it with some of you guys?!?! Buy a rule book for goodness sakes. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Every dog goned HF rig I have owned so far (and I will supply you a list if your writing a book) has been easily modifiable to work on 11 meters, were they illegal because of their potential too?

[KC4RAN]

I was interested in his interpretation of the personal use vs commercial resale, and I see how he's coming to that conclusion. I don't agree with it, since it still involves importing a device which is not intended for sale here in the US, but I see his argument.

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ April 26 2007,05:07)]I was interested in his interpretation of the personal use vs commercial resale, and I see how he's coming to that conclusion. I don't agree with it, since it still involves importing a device which is not intended for sale here in the US, but I see his argument.
RAN:
No offense meant, but again, the citations only serve to emphasize and further clarify the FCC's rules; they ARE specifying that the importation part of their ban applies to marketing; the whole wording of the ban is IN their definition of "marketing," as seen in the Ramko decision:


It SAYS QUOTE: "... may not be marketed... "Marketing" includes the sale or lease, offer for sale or lease
(including advertising for sale or lease), importing, shipping, and/or
distribution for the purpose of selling or leasing or offering for
sale or lease."

THAT is their wording, not mine or anyone elses's. A personal purchase is not considered "marketing" by the FCC's definition.

With all due respect, DON'T ask the FCC to micromanage Amateur Radio, and to rule on every little detail. The rules and ban on certain equipment is meant to prevent unlicensed operators from obtaining equipment that is not certified by the FCC; it has nothing to do with technical standards or spectral purity, or any aspect of the radio itself, other than frequency and/or power output that exceed FCC regulations.
Again, an FCC official who outranks even Riley was quoted a few years ago at an ARRL convention as saying "If Amateur Radio wants the FCC to make detailed decisions on every little question individuals have, the FCC may just do that, but the result will be something no Amateur will like." (Paraphrased.)
Amateurs ARE allowed a lot of freedom; the FCC encourages experimentation; Amateur Radio is the only Radio Service that is allowed the freedom of non-channelized operation (i.e. frequency agility) and a wide choice of user chosen frequencies. Can you name any other Service that enjoys that freedom? The FCC has trusted Amateurs to work things out and be self-policing since the Comm. Act of 1934 set the ground rules in stone, as it were. They do not want to be bothered with the details, so the rules ARE broad. Don't read more into the rules than is actually there. THAT is the "slippery slope" we must avoid.

[KC4RAN]

Wow... just... wow. I asked for clarification, got it, thanks. No need for the society lesson or anything else.

I didn't know if there was some section of Part 97 that was being thought of as somehow exempting us from this, but I see the wording now. Thanks. Again.

Geez...

[WA9SVD]

N3ATS:

The reason the Galaxy model you mention (as well as other radios on the FCC's list) is banned is because of it's capability of being easily modified.
It does NOT matter HOW it is marketed. (Heck, it could be "marketed" as a paperweight.) Companies can claim anything, but as the saying goes, "A rose is a rose," and a CB radio is a CB radio, no matter how it's marketed, or what purpose the manufacturer/seller claims. The manufacturers are using the claim to be Amateur equipment to "get around" the FCC rules concerning CB radios about frequency coverage, Power level, and indeed, the certification requirement itself.
The FCC, prior to certification, reviews and inspects each piece of equipment. If it finds a piece of equipment can be easily modified to cover CB frequencies, certification will not be granted. And that (lack of certification) is what makes it illegal to market in the U.S.

And I challenge you to give an example of ANY legitimate HF Amateur Radio that is channelized. NOT the radios that are on the FCC's banned list, or CLAIM to be Amateur radios, but true AMATEUR Radio equipment. Channelized operation of alleged Amateur equipment is one of the first flags used by the FCC to take a closer look at a suspect radio; they know true Amateur HF radios are NOT channelized.

[N3ATS]

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ April 26 2007,01:24)]
Quote[/b] ]QUOTE: "such transmitters that "have a built-in capability to operate on CB frequencies and can easily be altered to activate that capability, such as by moving or removing a jumper plug or cutting a single wire" fall within the definition of "CB transmitter" under Section 95.603© of the Rules and thereforerequire certification prior to marketing or importation."

The only problem with this is that ALL modern and legal HF transceivers marketed for amateur use fall into this category. This is too broad of a generalization.

The President HR2510 (on the banned list) required a cap to be added and the main PLL pins to be jumped. This is more difficult to modify than most legal HF transceivers, yet this radio is "on the list" even though it requires more than "moving a jumper" or "cutting a wire" to modify. This radio also looks nothing like a CB.

Quote[/b] ] Now, it doesn't really matter if you (or I, or anyone else) do not agree with the FCC in the matter; their decision IS explained, and it IS the law. (As Ramko Distributors recently learned, to the tune of $150,000.)

It certainly does matter. The FCC rules in this matter are vague, contradictory, and by the letter of the law, can be interpreted to include many legal radios as well.

The fact is. Most of these radios are limited to 10 meters from the factory. They are clearly stated as such on the box. There is a warning accompanying the radio advising it is an amateur radio requiring a license. The owner's manual says it, the dealers are saying it too. It IS marketed as a 10 meter radio. It is NOT a CB.

If it looks like a CB, or if the alleged intent of the end user is to operate the device in an illegal manner, then it's illegal in the eyes of the FCC.

By your reasoning, any HF amplifier capable of an output exceeding 1500W is illegal, because the ham "might" use it at full power. An AR-15 rifle should be illegal because it "looks" like a military weapon or machine gun. Cars should be limited to a maximum speed of 70MPH because the driver "might" go faster. The list goes on and on...

When the FCC goes after the small time dealer who runs his business out of his basement, he has no money to fight the FCC and he takes his lumps. He succumbs to the bully.

However, it isn't the small time dealer causing the influx of these types of radio into the U.S. It is the manufacturer. Manufacturers with deep pockets who can hire lawyers to laugh the FCC right out of court. In fact, it's been done. See The United States v. Ranger and Jim Peng. I will follow the Ramko case and see how it goes. But I am willing to bet that at this time next year, Ramko will still be selling radios.

If you really want the FCC to stop the importation and sale of these radios you need clear, concise rules. You can't fight the big guns in court with arguments like "Because I said so", "it looks like a CB", and "the end user might use it as a CB". Anyone with a decent lawyer can figure this out and very easily win.

Why do you think Copper and the larger dealers are selling these radios by the thousands every month and still doing it? This even AFTER Copper was sent a NAL back in 1999. Still business as usual for them!

If you want these radios "off the street" demand that the FCC comes up with a logical explanation as to why they are illegal.

[N3ATS]

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ April 26 2007,08:36)]N3ATS:

And I challenge you to give an example of ANY legitimate HF Amateur Radio that is channelized. NOT the radios that are on the FCC's banned list, or CLAIM to be Amateur radios, but true AMATEUR Radio equipment. Channelized operation of alleged Amateur equipment is one of the first flags used by the FCC to take a closer look at a suspect radio; they know true Amateur HF radios are NOT channelized.
No problem sir. As soon as you legally define what a "legitimate HF radio" is. Not based on looks, or your personal opinions, but a legal definition of "legitimate HF radio".

You may also want to find in the FCC rules where a channelized radio is not legal for HF use. Because unless specifically prohbitied by law, you can use the radio on the amateur bands. Right or wrong?

A kit radio, a homebrew radio, a radio in a Radio Shack project box, a radio built inside an Altoids tin, the $400 economy HF rig, the $10,000 rigs. Are these legitimate HF radios? Are they legal to use on the HF bands?

Listen, I am not trying to attack you, just so we're clear on this I mean no disrespect. Sometimes typed words may come off as such. I didn't want you you think my argument with is a personal attack. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ April 26 2007,06:42)]If you want these radios "off the street" demand that the FCC comes up with a logical explanation as to why they are illegal.
They've given as good an explanation as you're likely to get. As each manufacturer comes up with a new device, the FCC OET looks at it and makes a determination.

If you put out hard and fast rules, all that's going to do is give the Galaxy-types of the world hard and fast borders on how to make their 28 MHz CBs legal.



"Here's a list. These are illegal."


Seems logical to me.

[WA3KYY]

Quote[/b] (n2cfj @ April 10 2007,16:29)]Has anyone used the elecraft K2-100? #How does it compare to built rigs costing 2 to 3 times as much.

If it is worth the price as an entry level rig and an educational project, it would be good for some of the people who recently got HF privileges but are not rolling in money.
It is my primary rig and has been since 2002. #Nothing short of rigs in the $6K and up range out perform it. It beats the pants off radios like the Ft-857/897, IC-7000, TS-2300, etc except for the fact that it stops at 10M and does not have a general coverage receiver. #I #started with the basic 10W 80-10M version and added the other options over the next two years. #I am seriously considering a second one for SO2R contesting when I retire and have more time to play radio. I am gradually adding transverters for 6M and up even though I have an FT-857 and a dedicated 200W 6M SSB/CW rig because it out performs them. The 857 is for VHF/UHF FM and HF mobile work.


73,
Mike WA3KYY

[K9STH]

Actually, the HR-2510 requires the addition of a resistor, not a capacitor to "expand" the frequency range.

Glen, K9STH

[KD6NIG]

"I have modified your radio. Pray I don't modify it any further."
-Darth Vader, owner, "The Dark side CB repair shop"

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (KD6NIG @ April 26 2007,09:26)]"I have modified your radio. Pray I don't modify it any further."
-Darth Vader, owner, "The Dark side CB repair shop"
Wouldn't that actually be "Dork Vader?"

N3ATS:

The radios are considered CB or CB capable radios because the FCC says so. THEY define what is a CB radio (and have pointed out that the radios in question fall within their definition)just as they define what is CB, what is FRS, what is Amateur Radio, and what equipment standards are to be followed. CB and CB capable radios must be certified by the FCC to be legally marketed. (Sold on a commercial, for profit, basis.)
The ban doesn't apply to real HF Amateur equipment, because no Amateur HF equipment is specifically designed to allow operation on the CB frequencies when modified.

Now if any of the radios on the banned list were subsequently designed so that modification allowing operation on the CB frequencies were NOT possible, they would probably be considered "legitimate" Amateur radios, although the market for a channelized radio on HF would be questionable; and the idea of channelized radios is pretty much anathema to the concepts of Amateur Radio.
VHF/UHF FM is a different animal; specific frequencies and set steps are considered an advantage, especially when a repeater is in use. But multi-mode or all mode VHF/UHF Amateur equipment is all VFO tuned; none are channelized.


RAN:

No offense was meant. I was merely paraphrasing the ARRL's FCC Rule Book.

[N3ATS]

None taken! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

We could go on forever, but I would believe that "because the FCC says so" without any statutes, laws, or definition to back it up is a guaranteed lost case if this were ever taken to court.

I think especially humorous is how you can 100% legally operate your Galaxy/Magnum/Superstar/Connex/etc. radio within the amateur bands in the USA, but you are not allowed to market them in the USA.

Yet another contradiction. Oh well...

[k4kyv]

Quote[/b] (K8AG @ April 03 2007,21:04)]What worries me is that at some point the FCC may take our transmitter construction and modification privs away because the bulk of hams are not technically capable of making mods.
To me that would be tantamount to discontinuing amateur radio. If it happens in my lifetime, I will choose one of the following routes:

1. Just keep on operating, using my homebrew station until the FCC knocks on my door and shuts me down. Then tear up my licence right in front of the FCC inspector and tell him to stick what's left of amateur radio where the sun don't shine.

2. Skip the first step and simply contact the FCC and request licence cancellation, like the country music singer and her husband recently did.

[k4kyv]

Quote[/b] (w3scm @ April 04 2007,13:10)]You want "data" to tell which rigs splatter all over the place? Get about 10KC away from one on the band.
There was a thread on the Topband Reflector not too long ago in which numerous 160m users complained that some of the most popular amateur transceivers generate severe key clicks on CW. There were suggestions for simple modifications on some of the rigs that would fix the problem. Evidently the manufacturers wouldn't spend a couple of bucks per rig to build them to work correctly the first time, for the sake of the bottom line.

[KG6YTZ]

Now, see, if I were in the business of building rigs, I'd be concerned about things like that! If the people using the stuff I built had those kinds of complaints about it, I'd do something about fixing it. If someone comes up with a mod that fixes a problem I didn't know about, I'd add it to the design and show my gratitude to the one(s) who designed the mod.

Well, actually, I'd rather have my stuff be free of such problems before it even hits the shelves, but... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ April 26 2007,15:25)]None taken! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

We could go on forever, but I would believe that "because the FCC says so" without any statutes, laws, or definition to back it up is a guaranteed lost case if this were ever taken to court.

I think especially humorous is how you can 100% legally operate your Galaxy/Magnum/Superstar/Connex/etc. radio within the amateur bands in the USA, but you are not allowed to market them in the USA.

Yet another contradiction. Oh well...
N3ATS:
Steve, I believe (at least hope) we're having a civil discussion, even though we disagree...

The Communications Act of 1934 gives the FCC the authority to set standards concerning communications, only a small part of which concerns Amateur Radio. (There's telephone, broadcast radio and TV, etc.)

Part of those standards are to define the various services, including frequencies allowed, Power levels, equipment standards and licensing standards. So, by authority delegated by Congress, the FCC ultimately defines Amateur Radio and what frequencies may be used in the U.S. Same goes for CB. (IF the FCC chose to allow only the original 23 CB channels in the U.S., THAT would be CB, and the other 17 channels would NOT be uasble by legitimate CB operators.)

So it's also within the FCC's authority to define what equipment is allowed to be used by different services. They choose to require certification of equipment meant for the "John or Jane Doe," who is only interested in using the radio to talk or conduct business, but have no interest in the technical aspect of Radio.
That is why although most of the personal radio services do not require a written exam (indeed, some [FRS, CB] do not even require a license) Amateur Radio alone requires a written exam covering both Rules and Regulations as well as at least some technical knowledge. In return for that, Amateurs are given wide freedom and latitude in operation, and the right to use any equipment we wish, as long as it meets the technical standards for spectral purity and harmonic supression. ANY equipment may be used by Amateurs, but ONLY on Amateur frequencies. ANY equipment.
It's also within the FCC's authority to define what constitutes a "CB" radio, and to require certification of CB equipment for marketing in the U.S. And they look closely, and one of the first clues that a radio might not really be Amateur equipment is channelized operation. Ability to easily modify a piece of equipment to operate on CB frequencies is also one of the criteria they use. And when they find such radios, they use the concept that "If it quacks like a duck..."

The FCC has the authority to set the standards and define what each Service is allowed, just as your State's Motor Vehicle Department has the authority to set speed limits. Are such speed limits arbitrary? You (or I) may think so, but they are established, (hopefully) to protect the common good and the general population.
Who says the speed limit in a residential neighborhood is 25 MPH? Or 30 MPH. Why not 20? Or 40? Whether or not the actual value is arbitrary, or we think it is, it's determined by a government agency, and carries the force of law.

But I see no real contradiction. Amateurs may use ANY equipment; the FCC expects us to ensure it's used properly, and only on Amateur frequencies. The other services, including CB, do NOT have that right. They must follow the rules set forth by the FCC, including the requirement of using only certified equipment. So not allowing some equipment to be marketed because it can operate (transmit) on CB frequencies as well as other frequencies, or equipment for other services that also operate, or can easily be modified to operate on CB are also not legal because the FCC has decided such equipment will not be certified. CB equipment must operate ONLY on the specific 40 channels as specified in 47CFR95. Any other frequencies that may be possible, even with a simple "mod" will cause the FCC to refuse certification.
In like manner, a "10 Meter" radio that can be easily modified to operate on the CB frequencies will be classified as a CB radio by the FCC's definition, as pointed out in the FCC's citations to Ramko and others. The manufacturers and dealers use the claim of "10 Meter Amateur equipment" to not only try to get around the CB power limitation but also the entire certification process, knowing full well that they are producing a radio that will be used on 11 Meters. and can not meet the FCC's certification requirements (or limitations.)
Again, if many of the radios were designed so that modification were NOT possible, they probably could be sold as 10 Meter radios, although a channelized Amateur radio would have few takers.

[N8CPA]

Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ April 04 2007,21:45)]Quote[/b] (AB3BK @ April 03 2007,17:27)]"Now farewell to you, ye fine Spanish ladies,
Now farewell to you, ye ladies of Spain,
For we've received orders to sail for old England,
And perhaps we may never more see you again."
http://members.cox.net/richardray/th-4.jpg
Quint: [he sarcastically sings]
"Farewell and adieu to you fair Spanish ladies.
Farewell and adieu you ladies of Spain.
For we've received orders for to sail back to Boston.
And so nevermore shall we see you again."
Older than that.

Chapter XL
MIDNIGHT, FORECASTLE
Harpooners and sailors

Foresail rises and discovers the watch standing, lounging, leaning, and lying in various attitudes, all singing in chorus



Farewell and adieu to you, Spanish ladies!
Farewell and adieu to you, ladies of Spain!
Our captain's commanded. --

==================

Herman Melville--Moby Dick (1851)

[KC9GUZ]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ April 03 2007,13:53)]http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif Hey #I am proof that those tests are way too easy.

1) C B operator from 1969 till around 2005

#2) born and live in Alabama

then I took the General & Extra tests ( only missed 3 on the EXTRA exam ) , so I am proof positive that the tests are way too easy.

{ simple & to the point }


...next !! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I can attest to the fact that the tests are too easy as well.
CB op from Jan 1991 until Nov 2005.
Passed my General written July 2005 and passed the easy 5 WPM test July 2006.
Now im trying to study for my Extra as i speak. NOT so easy as the other tests I took, but im SLOWLY getting a grip.

Shame, shame, on me for starting out on CB and not "starting out pure and white" as a ham. Guess ill burn in hades for being a CB op..
Life goes on........

[AB8RU]

Personally all the illegal radios are a bunch of JUNK Period , poorly designed horrid specs and If anyone is offered to buy it tell them stop by the hardware store pick out a nice sledge hammer and a 2 ft square block, drive home place junk radio on top of block, put on saftey glasses take sledge hammer give it so many swings like you do at the county fair to ring the bell and have at it , afterwards take junk radio throw in dumpster.

End of Story http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[ve2nsm]

Quote[/b] (AB8RU @ April 28 2007,22:19)]Personally all the illegal radios are a bunch of JUNK Period , poorly designed horrid specs and If anyone is offered to buy it tell them stop by the hardware store pick out a nice sledge hammer and a 2 ft square block, drive home place junk radio on top of block, put on saftey glasses take sledge hammer give it so many swings like you do at the county fair to ring the bell and have at it , afterwards take junk radio throw in dumpster.

End of Story http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
You feel better now?

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (ve2nsm @ April 28 2007,19:30)]Quote[/b] (AB8RU @ April 28 2007,22:19)]Personally all the illegal radios are a bunch of JUNK Period , poorly designed horrid specs and If anyone is offered to buy it tell them stop by the hardware store pick out a nice sledge hammer and a 2 ft square block, drive home place junk radio on top of block, put on saftey glasses take sledge hammer give it so many swings like you do at the county fair to ring the bell and have at it , afterwards take junk radio throw in dumpster.

End of Story http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
You feel better now?
He might feel better initially, but if caught, could be looking at a stiff fine. In most areas now, electronic "waste" is considered hazardous material, and has to be disposed of in a proper manner. You MUST take it to a recycler. In some areas, it's 35¢ a pound for disposal, but can be a few thousand $ fine for disposing of electronics in the regular trash.

[kb1ohk]

Pushing the issue between the distinction of a legitimate amateur transceiver that can be modified to operate out of band and a cb in disguise could have undesireable consequences.

It is illegal to sell a cb that can be easily modified to operate on the 10 meter band,so how do you attempt to get around that? Sell just the opposite.

How many amateurs are in the market for a channelized radio with an echo & a train whistle?

If they made a channelized radio that operated on 17 meters I highly doubt the fcc would care,and I also doubt any ham would purchase such a useless rig!

Plain and simple the cb freebander is the guy buying the connex,cobra,galaxy 10 meter cb in disguise and operating it on 28.000

Technically the distinction between the differences may be vague but the reality is that the fcc isnt blind they know which equipment to target and they leave our legitimate amateur transceivers alone. Allowing us the privelage of modifying our equipment and trust that we will use it responsibly.

We face the possibility of having our licenses revoked if caught misusing our modified rigs. so we need use our equipment responsibly and are trusted by the fcc to do so.

The cb'er has nothing to loose and thats exactly the reason he shouldnt have modifiable radios!

[n0ov]

Frankly, the only place on HF where channelized radio may actually be useful would be on 60 meters

[KE6LYU]

Here is the answer, with the FCC Case number to back it up...

Quote:
I noticed there are a lot of forums I have never heard of discussing this same matter with the same differing opinions. So at the beginning of the week I called the FCC and asked flat out if these radios, that are illegal to market in the US, are ok for licensed amateur operators to use on the amateur bands ? Today on my way home I called home and my wife said I had a message from a Diane from the FCC. She had told me she would get back to me after directing the question to someone in charge of Amateur Licensing. I got home just now and she has stated that an Amateur is allowed to use the Amateur portion of an export radio. So that settles the question for good with me.
If anyone would like to verify the answer you can call Diane at 877-480-3201 option #2. The case# for my question is #776635


If you would like, call the number, and ask....legal as Ice cream to use on the Ham Bands with proper Lic.

73
KE6LYU

[N5LRZ]

VE2NSM..

MOST of them yea I agree. Most are just garbage. But there are a couple that while NOT GREAT were at least functinal. Uniden 2610 and its followup both had an actual VFO and were at least half way decent.

But on the whole I have to agree and state that in general one should not even waste their time on those imported pieces of crap. Get a half way truly decent HF/VHF/UHF base/mobile rig. The big three offer a low end but still very funcitonal mobile rig for a thosand up (price includes cost of a new external power supply to power the radio in base applications).

A pretty darn good basic rig can be gotten for just over 2 grand.

NOT BAD prices actually.

N5LRZ

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (KE6LYU @ May 04 2007,14:44)]Here is the answer, with the FCC Case number to back it up...

Quote:
I noticed there are a lot of forums I have never heard of discussing this same matter with the same differing opinions. So at the beginning of the week I called the FCC and asked flat out if these radios, that are illegal to market in the US, are ok for licensed amateur operators to use on the amateur bands ? Today on my way home I called home and my wife said I had a message from a Diane from the FCC. She had told me she would get back to me after directing the question to someone in charge of Amateur Licensing. I got home just now and she has stated that an Amateur is allowed to use the Amateur portion of an export radio. So that settles the question for good with me.
If anyone would like to verify the answer you can call Diane at 877-480-3201 option #2. The case# for my question is #776635


If you would like, call the number, and ask....legal as Ice cream to use on the Ham Bands with proper Lic.

73
KE6LYU
That's what I (and a few others) have been saying all along. It IS legal for an Amateur to use such radios on 10 Meters (but NOT the CB channels, modified or not.) It is NOT legal for a CB operator to use such a radio, even if it doesn't exceed the power limit for CB equipment; such radios are not certified or certifiable, so they can't be used on CB.
But Amateur or CB operator, whatever, such a radio can NOT be sold (as new) by anyone in the U.S. or it's posessions. And it would not be legal to BUY such a radio in the U.S., since the sale is illegal. (But apparently, a U.S. Amateur could purchase such a radio from a vendor outside the U.S.?? That's a gray area, and I wouldn't want to bet money on THAT either way. But if the radio is USED, it's legal for a Ham to sell it to another ham. or a dealer, or a dealer to then sell it to a Ham.)

Now, all that is assuming the piece of equipment meets the FCC's technical standards for suppression of spurious emissions and adequate suppression of harmonics. While many of the radios are not the greatest in terms of performance, (either transmit OR receive) they probably DO meet the standards, which are less stringent that the standards for equipment in other Radio Services.

[kb1ohk]

This tells you who is using these 10 meter radios http://www.radioactiveradios.com/testimonials.html

[ttevault]

Tell me this then. Is it legal for Hams to take legal equipment to the 11 meter band and use it??

[kb1ohk]

If it is an fcc type accepted cb transmitter anyone can use it on the 11 meter band.

[ttevault]

I guess I didn't state that last question correctly. What I should have said Take Ham equipment onto the 11 meter band and use it. as CB equipment. This is happening more than a lot of operators know. Let alone reular CB'ers using Ham equip. But I guess if you want to. What the heck. I won't get caught,Right?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif?

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (kb1ohk @ May 04 2007,18:30)]This tells you who is using these 10 meter radios http://www.radioactiveradios.com/testimonials.html
You don't need to read "testamonials" to know the vast majority of the radios are NOT used by hams; that's not the real issue.
Most ARE used by illegal operators who either want more power than CB allows, or want to use frequencies beyond (and below) the legitimate CB frequencies. (Sometimes, both reasons are given as an excuse.) But that (the higher power, and/or ability to operate outside the CB channels, either from the factory, or with a slight mod) is why the FCC will not certify the equipment, which makes them illegal to be sold in the U.S. The FCC considers them to be CB radios, even if they are marketed as, or claim to be, "10 Meter" radios. (If they were NOT modifiable to CB frequencies, they probably WOULD get FCC certification.

Now, even LRZ agrees (even grudging) that at least SOME of the radios may make a usable 10 Meter radio for a licensed Amateur. That's probably true; the FCC ban doesn't address performance issues, either on CB or 10 Meters. Such radios are NOT going to compete with good quality Amateur equipment, but they never were intended to compete with, say a $800-$1000 Amateur HF radio, and certainly not with a $10,000 YaeComWood. But some of the radios ARE marginably usable by hams. (That's all I've ever claimed since the beginning of the thread.) Indeed, a few of the radios, before the FCC created the banned list, were acceptable for casual 10 Meter work, and many microwave enthusiasts adopted the radios to use as the IF stage in a all-mode microwave station. The radios actually were attractive for such use: all-mode operation was possible, (CW, FM, AM and Upper/Lower Sideband,) the receiver section requirements are not as stringent as would be needed for "DX" work, and the low power of the transmitter made it easier to interface with a transverter than a regular HF radio. (In most cases, the output still has to be attenuated, but it's easier to attenuate 10-20 Watts down to one watt, than 100 watts.)
10 Meter radios, under different brand names, but apparently all manufactured by Uniden fell into this category: The HR-2510, President Lincoln, etc. by any other name was an "OK" radio, until the FCC decided the ease of modification to operate on CB made it "armamenta non grata."

Now, apparently the FCC has clarified the rules, and verified that such radios are legally usable on Amateur frequencies, by licensed Amateurs. But obviously, they may NOT legally be used on the CB channels by anyone.


The bottom line (hopefully) is that the radios are legal for licensed Amateurs to own and use on Amateur frequencies, as long as the license restrictions are followed.
The radios may NOT be purchased from a U.S. seller.
The actual purchase of such equipment as "New merchandise" from a seller outside the U.S. appears to be an option, but that is a gray area (IMHO) that would require a legal determination. But if such a radio were purchased by an Amateur outside the country, and he/she wished to bring it back as equipment for personal use, that seems to be permissible. And the "ban" on sales of the 10 Meter radios does not apply to ANY used equipment sold from one Ham to another licensed Ham or to a dealer. (For personal use; sale of such equipment must be on a personal use basis, not sold on a commercial basis. A ham could sell only one such 10 Meter radio in a calendar year, so that precludes commercial sales as a business.)

On the other hand, some of the radios on the "banned list" are marketed as CB radios, but with a simple mod will operate on extended frequencies, usually up to and including the low end of 10 Meters. The FCC also refuses to certify such equipment, because they have ruled that a CB radio can transmit on the 40 CB channels, and NOWHERE else. The radios CAN receive outside the CB band, but the transmitter must not cover anything other than the 40 CB channels.. Such radios would still be usably by a licensed Amateur IF and only IF they were used on the 10 Meter band, whether in a stock configuration, or after a mod is performed. But they are not legal for anyone to use on CB.

(Edited to repair typographical errors. Sorry.)

[kb1ohk]

It is illegal to use ham equipment on 11 meters, but that doesnt mean it's not being done.

The only advice I can give on that is use at your own risk,
and ask why anyone would want to go on the cb bands and listen to so