Religion on decline among youth [Archive]

KE5FRF

03-29-2007, 04:34 PM

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Mar. 29 2007,09:56)]Heath: Why reply to a blatant troll?
I don't really know, Albert. My road to Christ was paved with many debates and arguments, both with others and with my own conscience. I appreciate now the efforts of my loved ones, family and friends to bring me closer to the truth, MY TRUTH, and the truth that has helped so many people find sanity in this insane world through the years. People such as the poster do not realize how harmful their words sometimes are, how deeply they may affect people who read them. I imagine a desperate person, on the verge of suicide or an otherwise drastic event, reading our forum. I imagine them seeking answers to their troubles in Christ's words. As hard as the Atheist ideaology works to tear down the Christian faith, they offer no message of benefit to replace it...only sarcasm, selfishness, condescension, triteness, arrogance, conflict, intollerance, and downright hate. What benefit is there in sewing such seeds? I see none.

So, the short answer to your question is that I only want to counter the negativity of the troll with a positive message. Maybe if more people were less afraid to express their beliefs, we would see fewer "declines" in the number of faithful, and less personal strife when people hit "rock bottom". A place where my carved initials can be seen by anyone else who has the misfortune of visiting.

N2RJ

03-29-2007, 04:43 PM

Look at it this way - it is a win-win situation.

Atheists do not believe in god, period. #Agnostics just aren't sure.

Theists believe in god, and if you don't, you go to hell. #Or you reincarnate (according to the hindus and some others) as a lower life form.

Atheists are fine with that because they believe that such beliefs are mythical and unfounded.

Theists are fine too because they believe that all unbelievers are going to hell.

Everyone is happy because the unbelievers are going to hell, and the atheists think this is a myth.

Well, except some agnostics because many actually do believe in god but I believe many agnostics are simply apathetic. They get screwed, but screw them for sitting on the fence.

It all works out. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

AE6IP

03-29-2007, 04:48 PM

It all works out until the theists start taking their myths too seriously and go on crusades and jihads.

w3mv

03-29-2007, 05:03 PM

'FRF

The true test of a man's character is not what he does when he is up, but more so what he does after he has been kicked to the ground by life. I, for one, have never needed a spiritual crutch on which to steady myself when I was down on my luck; however, I can appreciate the comfort that having one has brought to others.

With the above said, I have seen people take religion too far. Unable to cope with the hard rock of life without relying heavily on religion, these people start prostyletizing every person who is unfortunate enough to cross their path.

KE5FRF

03-29-2007, 05:18 PM

Quote[/b] (ab3ex @ Mar. 29 2007,12:03)]'FRF

The true test of a man's character is not what he does when he is up, but more so what he does after he has been kicked to the ground by life. #I, for one, have never needed a spiritual crutch on which to steady myself when I was down on my luck; however, I can appreciate the comfort that having one has brought to others.

With the above said, I have seen people take religion too far. #Unable to cope with the hard rock of life without relying heavily on religion, these people start prostyletizing every person who is unfortunate enough to cross their path.
Whatever works I say. I would prefer not to think of spirituality as a crutch, however. Drugs are a crutch. Alcohol is a crutch. Food and other excesses are crutches. Beliefs, writings, teachings, whatever they may be, are answers...agree with them or not. It is unfortunate that some prostyletize their beliefs. But if you read these forums enough, Christians are not the only guilty parties. See the original post.

G8ADD

03-29-2007, 06:10 PM

It would be much more to the point to explore WHY religious beliefs are losing ground.

In my opinion the churches only have themselves to blame. Their only tactic to inspire belief seems to be the threat of hellfire. Too few of those prominent in the churches of whatever denomination seem prepared to lead by example, there are far too many cases of corruption and perversion, and whilst there are many at all levels in the churches who live well and behave in accordance with the high ideals of their denominations, there are far too many that use their religious stance to spew hatred and contempt. Note that this applies more widely than just to Christianity.

There are those in this country (perhaps in the USA, too) who say that we live in a post Christian society: I think it would be more exact to call it a post church society. Strip out the words that indicate religion and the Christian moral philosophy permeates the developed world.

73

Brian G8ADD

al2i

03-29-2007, 06:31 PM

Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Mar. 29 2007,08:43)]Look at it this way - it is a win-win situation.

Atheists do not believe in god, period. Agnostics just aren't sure.

Theists believe in god, and if you don't, you go to hell. Or you reincarnate (according to the hindus and some others) as a lower life form.

Atheists are fine with that because they believe that such beliefs are mythical and unfounded.

Theists are fine too because they believe that all unbelievers are going to hell.

Everyone is happy because the unbelievers are going to hell, and the atheists think this is a myth.

Well, except some agnostics because many actually do believe in god but I believe many agnostics are simply apathetic. They get screwed, but screw them for sitting on the fence.

It all works out. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Hey! That was good OM! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

ab8ro

03-29-2007, 06:33 PM

Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Mar. 28 2007,12:10)]It would be much more to the point to explore WHY religious beliefs are losing ground.
Thanks Brian, at least your comments are related. The article is observing that the trend in the U.S. mirrors the trend in Europe, albeit, delayed by a few decades.

You can argue until you're blue in the face about why you love christ or pink unicorns, however, the trend reflects that your arguments are not sufficient to maintain belief through the generations in the face of a healthy dose of obviosity.

al2n

03-29-2007, 06:36 PM

An Agnostic is an Atheist who is hedging their bets.

KE5FRF

03-29-2007, 06:57 PM

Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 29 2007,13:33)]Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Mar. 28 2007,12:10)]It would be much more to the point to explore WHY religious beliefs are losing ground.
Thanks Brian, at least your comments are related. The article is observing that the trend in the U.S. mirrors the trend in Europe, albeit, delayed by a few decades.

You can argue until you're blue in the face about why you love christ or pink unicorns, however, the trend reflects that your arguments are not sufficient to maintain belief through the generations in the face of a healthy dose of obviosity.
And your comments only highlight the hate, intolerance, sarcasm, and lack of understanding that you have come to be recognized for.

....reply follows with a jab at my intelligence, geographical heritage, or some other trite observation blah blah blah. Am I close?

k4kyv

03-29-2007, 07:38 PM

Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Mar. 29 2007,16:43)]Theists believe in god, and if you don't, you go to hell. Or you reincarnate (according to the hindus and some others) as a lower life form.

Atheists are fine with that because they believe that such beliefs are mythical and unfounded.

Theists are fine too because they believe that all unbelievers are going to hell.

Everyone is happy because the unbelievers are going to hell, and the atheists think this is a myth.
Looks like a classic set-up to me.

The almighty (loving) God condemns anyone, who doesn't conform his/her beliefs 100% in accordance with a specific system, to an eternity of torture by fire, simply for doubting the hearsay evidence presented by a few little-known men via some ancient texts. This, despite the fact that the hearsay evidence contradicts natural logic based on personal observation of the physical world, that humans experience as we grow up on our tiny planet.

Would a loving God go out of his way to make his own existence so incredible, that a large number of his subjects are effectively tricked into eternal torture, simply because they cannot honestly accept something that contradicts their own observation and experience, as literal truth?

ab8ro

03-29-2007, 08:03 PM

Quote[/b] (al2n @ Mar. 28 2007,12:36)]An Agnostic is an Atheist who is hedging their bets.
Religious people frequently tend to misunderstand agnostics. They think that the typical agnostic is trying to sit on the fence just to be sure. That's absurd. The term, as coined by Huxley, implies that god isn't known. This stands in stark contradiction to what almost all churches believe in the sense that they claim to know many attributes of god. While the meaning of the term is often disputed, Huxley wrote the following:

Quote[/b] ]
It [agnostic] came into my head as suggestively antithetic to the 'gnostic' of Church history, who professed to know so much about the very things of which I was ignorant....

The point, however, is this. The agnostic may claim to not know of god, but their claim is greater, their claim also includes that god is unknowable, that is, you, e.g. christians, also do not know god.

There are essentially two kinds of agnostics. Those that have a reasonable understanding of what the word means and thus most certainly reject the christian/muslim god. And those who choose it in social safety. You can be sure that those who choose it in safety only do so because they realize that the notion of god is absurd but they don't have the courage, for whatever reason, to come out and say so. I would wager that most who aren't sure about christianity don't claim to be agnostic, rather, they claim to be christians. After all, that is the only "safe bet", if one is naive enough to believe that they can slip a safe bet by an angry vindictive god.

So while deluded christians may feel some false hope in counting the agnostics among potential converts. This feeling is derived from a misunderstanding of what agnostic means.

Agnostics tend to see the gods of philosophers, not the gods of the church. Attributeless gods are generally of no concern to atheists, as they usually have little to say about enforcing an arbitrary set of rules invented by men.

K0RGR

03-29-2007, 08:37 PM

It's possible to believe in a deity or The Deity or many deities, and also believe that they don't give a rip about you - for some, this is the definition of agnosticism - "not knowing" or " we can't know God".

Some, however, believe that it is the power of belief alone that saves you. Others believe that you are what you are when you are born, and nothing you or anyone else does on Earth has any bearing on where you end up. If you're lucky , you'll be reborn somewhere nice, if not, you will be reincarnated as a horse apple.

WA2DYA

03-29-2007, 08:55 PM

This is all good news. Mankind has be matching towards Armageddon from the very day he felt the need for religion.

--- CHAS

ka5piu

03-29-2007, 09:24 PM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Mar. 29 2007,09:48)]It all works out until the theists start taking their myths too seriously and go on crusades and jihads.
Hello.

The only thing that the popular press has right is,
All Muslims are always on Jihad, always planning something.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad
So, with that said, I will go back to my personal Jihad, now in progress.

ab8ro

03-29-2007, 09:34 PM

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Mar. 28 2007,14:37)]It's possible to believe in a deity or The Deity or many deities, and also believe that they don't give a rip about you - for some, this is the definition of agnosticism - "not knowing" or " we can't know God".

Some, however, believe that it is the power of belief alone that saves you. Others believe that you are what you are when you are born, and nothing you or anyone else does on Earth has any bearing on where you end up. If you're lucky , you'll be reborn somewhere nice, if not, you will be reincarnated as a horse apple.
Yes, but this is NOT the christian, nor the muslim god. Modern monotheistic cults make grandiose claims about their knowledge of god and this is, in general, what agnostics reject. After all, if you cannot know that god exists, then you can hardly know what attributes god might have.

KW4MW

03-29-2007, 11:16 PM

Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Mar. 29 2007,14:10)]It would be much more to the point to explore WHY religious beliefs are losing ground.

In my opinion the churches only have themselves to blame. Their only tactic to inspire belief seems to be the threat of hellfire. Too few of those prominent in the churches of whatever denomination seem prepared to lead by example, there are far too many cases of corruption and perversion, and whilst there are many at all levels in the churches who live well and behave in accordance with the high ideals of their denominations, there are far too many that use their religious stance to spew hatred and contempt. Note that this applies more widely than just to Christianity.

There are those in this country (perhaps in the USA, too) who say that we live in a post Christian society: I think it would be more exact to call it a post church society. Strip out the words that indicate religion and the Christian moral philosophy permeates the developed world.

73

Brian G8ADD
I must agree with that. #

I think that young people (and not so young) have tired of the sanctimonious rantings from the altar and from the pious laity, the "do as I say, not as I do" attitude that is prevalent in all orthodox religions. #

Young people are curious but when they question what they are taught by their elders they are told “it is not for you to know or understand – you must accept it on faith alone”. #Some of us readily accept religion on faith alone, most of us would like to know more about what we're getting into before we make a lifetime commitment. # #

For those reasons many of them have forsaken the church. #That is not to say that they are atheists or agnostics – maybe they’re just confused and find it convenient to label themselves as such just so they can be left alone. #

Creeds, dogmas, doctrines, rituals, ceremonies, stained glass, altars, mitres, what have these to do with religion? Religion is in the spirit, the spirit that belongs to all Creation, which expresses itself in every rhythm and manifestation of life, that is revealed in every aspect of Nature and in the striving of all idealists and reformers who wish to serve.

K8MHZ

03-30-2007, 02:08 AM

W.W.J.D.

How many of those that claim to be Christians actually do what Jesus did?

Very few, if any.

But it does not seem to matter as His death provided a carte blanche pass into Heaven for those that think they are deserving for what ever reason.....so they think.

Time will tell.

KW4MW

03-30-2007, 02:59 AM

W. W. J. D.

Wild Women and Jack Daniels

works for me!

kf6rdn

03-30-2007, 03:15 AM

One of my fav Hawkeye quotes:

I'm an atheist! I swear to God!

KI4UDV

03-30-2007, 03:16 AM

One point of the report says this:

"One-in-five members of "Generation Next" say they have no religious affiliation or are atheist or agnostic, nearly double the proportion of young people who said that in the late 1980s."

Well I am a Christian, but I do not have a religious affiliation with any organized church. I wonder if any of these generation "next" people polled fit into this category? The original premise lumps too many variables together. Why? Most likely to be deceptive.

I see Christianity as a relationship with God, through believing in what Jesus did for me personally, not necessarily affiliating myself with any one particular church. Sometimes I do attend services, but that is to meet other Christians, and to have some human interaction with another believer. I am somewhat dissapointed in most of the churches I visit, in the sense of precedures etc, but enjoy meeting friends that I haven't met before after the services are over. Sometimes for lunch, sometimes just to ragchew!

I am not sure why the original poster would try to inflame people with his method of crossing out fairytale and then writing god. Perhaps he doesn't mean the God that created everything! Don't worry, the God spelt with the big G is patient. Perhaps the original poster is afraid to use the big G. Who knows? Who cares?

I thought the forums' were for genuine and constructive discussion, and not for slamming someones beliefs. Just pointing out that religious affiliations are down, and other beliefs, or non beliefs are up, would have sufficed for a discussion.

In any case, no one ever said that the majority opinion was ever true. This is a fallacy of logic. In the case of Christianity, or should I say, those who truly believe in Christ. He said the "few" would find the truth. The truth being that he created the world, the world didn't reconize him when he came, but whosoever will may come to him. He will not reject anyone that sincerely comes to him. That includes, everybody, including the original poster!

I've heard all of these debates before, there is nothing new under the sun. I had a friend who once said that "when the ground starts shaking, who is an atheist going to cry out to?" I think that sums it up. I think he might have been refering to when Christ comes back in all of his Glory and people cry out to the rocks, that they fall on them so they don't have to see him. Christ doesn't condemmed them, they condemm themselves.
BTW , not writing this to be "pushy" or trying to "frighten people". I'm pointing out that people have free will. Free will has consequences, for good and for bad. I'm not perfect, I make decisions everyday. Some I am proud of, some not so proud. I didn't blow the big koyhuna decision though. Thank God! I'm glad he was patient with me!

Anyway, I digress. The truth is that people don't merely need to have a mental ascent that God exists. That won't save anyone on Judgement day. People need a relationship with him. Relationship with God = good.
No relationship with God = not so good!

This is the deception of all of these discussions about God, and whether he exists or not. It's a rabbit trail that leads nowhere. My Bible says that God not not want anyone to perish, but all to have everlasting life. My Bible says that God is love. That's why he sent his Son.

That's my two cents. I'm out.
The atheists may resume patting themselves on the back.
I merely wrote this to say my piece and to encourage. Not to get in a half baked debate with the original poster!

ab8ro

03-30-2007, 04:27 AM

Quote[/b] (KI4UDV @ Mar. 28 2007,21:16)]One point of the report says this:

"One-in-five members of "Generation Next" say they have no religious affiliation or are atheist or agnostic, nearly double the proportion of young people who said that in the late 1980s."

Well I am a Christian, but I do not have a religious affiliation with any organized church. I wonder if any of these generation "next" people polled fit into this category? The original premise lumps too many variables together. Why? Most likely to be deceptive.
Actually, it's pretty well documented that the reverse is true. Many people claim to be christian because they expect that's what the polls want to hear.

As to the rest of your silliness, take a class in logic. The ground DOESN'T shake. Nor will it ever, other than for natural or man made causes. If that's the sum total of your analysis of the issue then it's no surprise that you're christian.

And as far as the "purpose" of these forums?

HAhahahahahahahahhahahahaha

hold on a minute....

hahahhhahhahahahahahhahahahaha
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
ahahahahhhahhahahahhhahaaahahahahah
ahahahaahhhhahahahahahahahahaha

ok, I'm good now.

Religious beliefs deserve no special treatment. As long as people believe that fairy-tales describe the nature of the physical world, then they are open to criticism. If you wish the criticism to cease, provide evidence that your fairy-tales have validity.

You are indeed free to believe what you want, but there is nothing sacred about your beliefs such that others have any obligation not to criticize them as they would any other beliefs. People criticize the political beliefs of others in these forums daily.

If you say you believe something is true, then you either should expect to provide evidence that it is indeed true, or expect criticism.

ab8ro

03-30-2007, 04:29 AM

Quote[/b] (KW4MW @ Mar. 28 2007,17:16)]For those reasons many of them have forsaken the church. #That is not to say that they are atheists or agnostics – maybe they’re just confused and find it convenient to label themselves as such just so they can be left alone. #
The point of the study, is that in fact, more ARE atheists and agnostics.

KA8NCR

03-30-2007, 04:36 AM

God just sent me an instant message. She says she's tired of the bickering on QRZ and she's going to start working on the band conditions in the morning; just as soon as she catches up on the "Ask a Ninja" videos on YouTube.

God also passed along that Jesus says "hi", and what Jesus would do is be nicer to people, animals and try to get along better, and quit sending money to that preacher in Texas who has a house bigger than Donald Trump.

That is all.

KC2ESD

03-30-2007, 04:44 AM

No wonder The World is going to Hell in a Bucket.
Another sign of the endtimes.
73 Earth de Rick KC2ESD

ab8ro

03-30-2007, 04:46 AM

Quote[/b] (ka8ncr @ Mar. 28 2007,22:36)]God just sent me an instant message. #She says she's tired of the bickering on QRZ and she's going to start working on the band conditions in the morning; just as soon as she catches up on the "Ask a Ninja" videos on YouTube.

God also passed along that Jesus says "hi", and what Jesus would do is be nicer to people, animals and try to get along better, and quit sending money to that preacher in Texas who has a house bigger than Donald Trump.

That is all.
I hope you've observed that neither god nor jesus are necessary for your message.

Buddhism captures all the <s>truthful</s> important bits.

ab8ro

03-30-2007, 04:48 AM

Quote[/b] (KC2ESD @ Mar. 28 2007,22:44)]No wonder The World is going to Hell in a Bucket.
Another sign of the endtimes.
73 Earth de Rick KC2ESD
My god I hope so. Maybe all you christians will shut the hell up about abortion once you're lapping up honey, milk, and virgins, in paradise. Oh wait, I forget, you guys only get to pet angel wings, no virgins for you! But grandma and her smelly feet will be there.

KI4UDV

03-30-2007, 05:29 AM

Here's a quote from someone that I respect.

"As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene....No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."
Albert Einstein

he had another quote when discussing quantum mechanics namely "God Does Not Throw Dice"

Other people, much more intelligent then myself are believers. Also much more intelligent than most pseudo intellectuals that I seem to recently encounter. the following is an excerpt from this webpage; from this man.

Dr. "Fritz" Schaefer is the Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry and the director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia. He has been nominated for the Nobel Prize and was recently cited as the third most quoted chemist in the world. "The significance and joy in my science comes in the occasional moments of discovering something new and saying to myself, 'So that's how God did it!' My goal is to understand a little corner of God's plan." --U.S. News & World Report, Dec. 23, 1991.

http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9501/bigbang2.html

"
There are many prominent counter-examples to Stephen Hawking. One is a colleague of mine at Berkeley for 18 years, Charlie Townes. Townes won the Nobel Prize for discovering the maser. One statement he made differs greatly from Hawking's view; he said, "In my view, the question of origin seems to be left unanswered if we explore from a scientific view alone. Thus, I believe there is a need for some religious or metaphysical explanation. I believe in the concept of God and in His existence."

Arthur Schawlow is another Nobel Prize winner, a professor at Stanford who identifies himself as a Christian. He states, "We are fortunate to have the Bible and especially the New Testament which tells us so much about God in widely accessible human terms."

The other Cambridge professor of theoretical physics for much of Hawking's career was John Polkinghorn, a nuclear physicist. He left his chair of theoretical physics at Cambridge in 1979 and went to seminary to become a minister. Upon completing that, he had a parish church for awhile and now has recently come back to be the President of Queen's College at Cambridge. He states, "I take God very seriously indeed. I am a Christian believer and I believe that God exists and has made Himself known in human terms in Jesus Christ."

Probably the world's greatest observational cosmologist is Allan Sandage. Sandage works in Pasadena, California at the Carnegie Observatories. In 1991, he received a prize given by the Swedish academy that is given every six years in physics for cosmology and is worth the same amount of money as the Nobel prize (there is not a Nobel Prize given for cosmology). Sandage has even been called "the grand old man of cosmology" by the New York Times.

At the age of 50, Sandage became a Christian. He states in Lightman's book, Origins: The Lives and Worlds of Modern Cosmologists, "The nature of God is not to be found within any part of the findings of science. For that, one must turn to the Scriptures." When asked the famous question regarding whether it's possible to be a scientist and a Christian, Sandage replies, "Yes. The world is too complicated in all its parts and interconnections to be due to chance alone. I am convinced that the existence of life with all its order in each of its organisms is simply too well put together."

I think these learned men are on to something.

ab8ro

03-30-2007, 05:42 AM

Quote[/b] (KI4UDV @ Mar. 28 2007,23:29)]Here's a quote from someone that I respect.

"As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene....No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."
Albert Einstein
Did you actually read that? He's acknowledging that the character jesus has a fantastic personality. As a Jew, I'm quite sure he didn't believe that jesus was the son of god. More to the point, Einstein did not believe in a personal god at all. In essence, Einstein was agnostic.

Quote[/b] ]
he had another quote when discussing quantum mechanics namely "God Does Not Throw Dice"

Like many, you misunderstand this to be a statement about religion, it's not, it's a statement about physics.

I've snipped the rest. Who can say why some intelligent people believe in fairy-tales. Sorry to burst your bubble, however, scientists have a much higher rate of atheism than the general population. It ought not surprise you that some claim to believe in god. After all, so has every modern president, it's convenient for politics.

But seriously, more to the point, no scientist is an expert on god, or perhaps phrased more correctly, no scientist is any more an expert on god than anybody else. It's really quite simple, you can become an expert on the body of evidence that demonstrates that god exists in no time. Literally. There is no evidence that god exists and your silly reference to a few scientists who are either as deluded or dishonest as anyone else who believe fairy-tales say something about the state of the world demonstrates nothing about god.

Skeptics do not worship scientists. We might defer to their opinion on a matter in their field when we trust they are expert in their field, but no scientist is an expert on god as science has nothing to say about the supernatural.

The problem is that in our culture we treat religious beliefs as if they're special, they are not and they ought to be challenged.

To paraphrase someone else, that which is believed without evidence can be as easily dismissed without evidence.

KI4UDV

03-30-2007, 06:03 AM

"I've snipped the rest."

Of course you did!

Other readers can scroll up to read the quotes I had from learned men.

Well Einstein said that Jesus was not a myth, in his opinion. Perhaps he was an agnostic. I havent studied him. I thought his quote was thoughtful, even if he was an Agnostic, he was careful in his statement and seemed to care about the topic of Jesus.

It seems you are incorrect about scientists being atheists. Perhaps you should hold your ears and make noise instead of reading the following quote from Dr. Shaefer..also found in this web page

http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9501/bigbang2.html

"It is very rare that a physical scientist is truly an atheist

ab8ro

03-30-2007, 06:19 AM

Quote[/b] (KI4UDV @ Mar. 29 2007,00:03)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 29 2007,22:42)]
"I've snipped the rest."

Of course you did!
Indeed, read above for more explanation. You're the fool if you take the words of scientists over priests for your religious beliefs. They have nothing to say about god. Of course, neither do your priests, but at least they have the funny hats for extra credibility.

Quote[/b] ]
Other readers can scroll up to read the quotes I had from learned men.
http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9501/bigbang2.html

It's great that you think scientists are "learned men", I'm guessing that you'll agree with the overwhelming majority who are atheists.

Quote[/b] ]
It seems you are incorrect about scientists being atheists. Perhaps you should hold your ears and make noise instead of reading the following quote from Dr. Shaefer..also found in this web page

"It is very rare that a physical scientist is truly an atheist

That might be Henry F. Schaefer's unsubstantiated opinion, however, the data disagrees with him. He should stick to chemistry and you should try this thing called reading, you might learn something.

Here's real data (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm) for you. Choke on that for a while while you eat your own words.

That's right over 70% of scientists express disbelief in a personal god and immortality and over 20% express doubt or agnosticism. I could care less about splitting hairs over agnosticism vs atheism, however, because as has already been made clear, the gods of philosophers are uninteresting. The essence of this is that they reject silly belief systems like christianity and islam.

G8ADD

03-30-2007, 06:23 AM

Quote[/b] (KW4MW @ Mar. 29 2007,16:16)]Creeds, dogmas, doctrines, rituals, ceremonies, stained glass, altars, mitres, what have these to do with religion? Religion is in the spirit, the spirit that belongs to all Creation, which expresses itself in every rhythm and manifestation of life, that is revealed in every aspect of Nature and in the striving of all idealists and reformers who wish to serve.
That's a nice quote: it resonates in me as an agnostic - where is it from?

73

Brian G8ADD

ab8ro

03-30-2007, 06:35 AM

Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Mar. 29 2007,00:23)]Quote[/b] (KW4MW @ Mar. 29 2007,16:16)]Creeds, dogmas, doctrines, rituals, ceremonies, stained glass, altars, mitres, what have these to do with religion? Religion is in the spirit, the spirit that belongs to all Creation, which expresses itself in every rhythm and manifestation of life, that is revealed in every aspect of Nature and in the striving of all idealists and reformers who wish to serve.
That's a nice quote: it resonates in me as an agnostic - where is it from?

73

Brian G8ADD
Hi Brian,

It is a nice quote. However, it's important to identify that these ideas are not of ANY dogmatic majority religion today. Christians who talk about how they see god everywhere are touting the agnostic position. Their god has attributes, it cannot be confused for the indifferent god. To claim one knows some particular attribute of god is to deny the agnostic position.

Once we take away those things, there is nothing left of any majority religion. And once we take those things away, god becomes unnecessary to the religions that remain.

The problem with quotes that "resonate" is that they are full of words which cannot be "defined." Words like spirit, for example. Without the supernatural, what exactly does it mean that is manifestly different from a human experience?

G8ADD

03-30-2007, 07:55 AM

Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 29 2007,23:35)]Hi Brian,

It is a nice quote. However, it's important to identify that these ideas are not of ANY dogmatic majority religion today. Christians who talk about how they see god everywhere are touting the agnostic position. Their god has attributes, it cannot be confused for the indifferent god. To claim one knows some particular attribute of god is to deny the agnostic position.

Once we take away those things, there is nothing left of any majority religion. And once we take those things away, god becomes unnecessary to the religions that remain.

The problem with quotes that "resonate" is that they are full of words which cannot be "defined." Words like spirit, for example. Without the supernatural, what exactly does it mean that is manifestly different from a human experience?
All aspects of our experiences are human, yet surely there are different levels. When I look at the sky on a clear, moonless night, or watch a sunset, or stand on a mountain top when the cloud suddenly clears, I feel a sensation that I can only describe as an expansion into another plane of experience. This is not of itself a religious experience but it can easily be described in such terms.

The god of organised religion is too simple, too easily understood, too human; as an agnostic I suspect that if there is a God he is intrinsically beyond our knowing, though we may be able to deduce things about him by studying his creation.

73

Brian G8ADD

n2ize

03-30-2007, 08:09 AM

Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Mar. 30 2007,00:55)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 29 2007,23:35)]Hi Brian,

It is a nice quote. However, it's important to identify that these ideas are not of ANY dogmatic majority religion today. Christians who talk about how they see god everywhere are touting the agnostic position. Their god has attributes, it cannot be confused for the indifferent god. To claim one knows some particular attribute of god is to deny the agnostic position.

Once we take away those things, there is nothing left of any majority religion. And once we take those things away, god becomes unnecessary to the religions that remain.

The problem with quotes that "resonate" is that they are full of words which cannot be "defined." Words like spirit, for example. Without the supernatural, what exactly does it mean that is manifestly different from a human experience?
All aspects of our experiences are human, yet surely there are different levels. When I look at the sky on a clear, moonless night, or watch a sunset, or stand on a mountain top when the cloud suddenly clears, I feel a sensation that I can only describe as an expansion into another plane of experience. This is not of itself a religious experience but it can easily be described in such terms.

The god of organised religion is too simple, too easily understood, too human; as an agnostic I suspect that if there is a God he is intrinsically beyond our knowing, though we may be able to deduce things about him by studying his creation.

73

Brian G8ADD
I sort of belive in a "God" too. I "belive" that I am God. We are all "God". We have the "power of God" Instead of projecting the image of God on some supernatural obscure being we need to start projecting God onto what we do know, including ourselves. I am God. We are God.

ab8ro

03-30-2007, 08:17 AM

Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Mar. 29 2007,01:55)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 29 2007,23:35)]Hi Brian,

It is a nice quote. However, it's important to identify that these ideas are not of ANY dogmatic majority religion today. Christians who talk about how they see god everywhere are touting the agnostic position. Their god has attributes, it cannot be confused for the indifferent god. To claim one knows some particular attribute of god is to deny the agnostic position.

Once we take away those things, there is nothing left of any majority religion. And once we take those things away, god becomes unnecessary to the religions that remain.

The problem with quotes that "resonate" is that they are full of words which cannot be "defined." Words like spirit, for example. Without the supernatural, what exactly does it mean that is manifestly different from a human experience?
All aspects of our experiences are human, yet surely there are different levels. When I look at the sky on a clear, moonless night, or watch a sunset, or stand on a mountain top when the cloud suddenly clears, I feel a sensation that I can only describe as an expansion into another plane of experience. This is not of itself a religious experience but it can easily be described in such terms.
Ah, no doubt. Watching the sun come up over the grand canyon induces such a feeling. I just think that it's poorly described as a religious experience only because people will take it for more than the distinctly neurological experience that it is.

I don't mean to minimize these kinds of experiences. They are, indeed, thoroughly enjoyable, but there is no evidence that they are anything other than human.

Quote[/b] ]
The god of organised religion is too simple, too easily understood, too human; as an agnostic I suspect that if there is a God he is intrinsically beyond our knowing, though we may be able to deduce things about him by studying his creation.

Which is to say, that for all intents and purposes, there's little point in studying or trying to know such a god. Certainly, there's no point in worshiping such a god. After all, if god is beyond our knowing, then it isn't possible for us to know if such a god wishes to be worshiped.

This is one of the fallacies of the monotheistic cults. They ascribe human emotion to a god of perfection. We consider jealousy and rage to be limitations of the human emotional experience, yet, a so called perfect god, in essence, throws tantrums?

G8ADD

03-30-2007, 09:49 AM

Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 30 2007,01:17)]Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Mar. 29 2007,01:55)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 29 2007,23:35)]Hi Brian,

It is a nice quote. However, it's important to identify that these ideas are not of ANY dogmatic majority religion today. Christians who talk about how they see god everywhere are touting the agnostic position. Their god has attributes, it cannot be confused for the indifferent god. To claim one knows some particular attribute of god is to deny the agnostic position.

Once we take away those things, there is nothing left of any majority religion. And once we take those things away, god becomes unnecessary to the religions that remain.

The problem with quotes that "resonate" is that they are full of words which cannot be "defined." Words like spirit, for example. Without the supernatural, what exactly does it mean that is manifestly different from a human experience?
All aspects of our experiences are human, yet surely there are different levels. When I look at the sky on a clear, moonless night, or watch a sunset, or stand on a mountain top when the cloud suddenly clears, I feel a sensation that I can only describe as an expansion into another plane of experience. This is not of itself a religious experience but it can easily be described in such terms.
Ah, no doubt. Watching the sun come up over the grand canyon induces such a feeling. I just think that it's poorly described as a religious experience only because people will take it for more than the distinctly neurological experience that it is.

I don't mean to minimize these kinds of experiences. They are, indeed, thoroughly enjoyable, but there is no evidence that they are anything other than human.

Quote[/b] ]
The god of organised religion is too simple, too easily understood, too human; as an agnostic I suspect that if there is a God he is intrinsically beyond our knowing, though we may be able to deduce things about him by studying his creation.

Which is to say, that for all intents and purposes, there's little point in studying or trying to know such a god. Certainly, there's no point in worshiping such a god. After all, if god is beyond our knowing, then it isn't possible for us to know if such a god wishes to be worshiped.

This is one of the fallacies of the monotheistic cults. They ascribe human emotion to a god of perfection. We consider jealousy and rage to be limitations of the human emotional experience, yet, a so called perfect god, in essence, throws tantrums?
Agreed. I have yet to hear a water-tight answer to the crucial question "why does God want to be worshipped?"

73

Brian G8ADD

KW4MW

03-30-2007, 12:50 PM

2izeQuote[/b] ]I sort of belive in a "God" too. I "belive" that I am God. We are all "God". We have the "power of God" Instead of projecting the image of God on some supernatural obscure being we need to start projecting God onto what we do know, including ourselves. I am God. We are God.

Psalms 82:6 #I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34 #Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

KI4UDV

03-30-2007, 01:08 PM

Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 29 2007,23:19)]Quote[/b] (KI4UDV @ Mar. 29 2007,00:03)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 29 2007,22:42)]
"I've snipped the rest."

Of course you did!
Indeed, read above for more explanation. You're the fool if you take the words of scientists over priests for your religious beliefs. They have nothing to say about god. Of course, neither do your priests, but at least they have the funny hats for extra credibility.

Quote[/b] ]
Other readers can scroll up to read the quotes I had from learned men.
http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9501/bigbang2.html

It's great that you think scientists are "learned men", I'm guessing that you'll agree with the overwhelming majority who are atheists.

Quote[/b] ]
It seems you are incorrect about scientists being atheists. Perhaps you should hold your ears and make noise instead of reading the following quote from Dr. Shaefer..also found in this web page

"It is very rare that a physical scientist is truly an atheist

That might be Henry F. Schaefer's unsubstantiated opinion, however, the data disagrees with him. He should stick to chemistry and you should try this thing called reading, you might learn something.

Here's real data (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm) for you. Choke on that for a while while you eat your own words.

That's right over 70% of scientists express disbelief in a personal god and immortality and over 20% express doubt or agnosticism. I could care less about splitting hairs over agnosticism vs atheism, however, because as has already been made clear, the gods of philosophers are uninteresting. The essence of this is that they reject silly belief systems like christianity and islam.
This study that you hold so near and dear to your heart has very narrow parameters."Larson and Witham present the results of a replication of 1913 and 1933 surveys by James H. Leuba. In those surveys, Leuba mailed a questionnaire to leading scientists asking about their belief in "a God in intellectual and affective communication with humankind" and in "personal immortality". "

Suposed a scientist felt that God existed, but didn't interact personally with "human kind". The scientist would then have to check the no selection, if he responded at all. In todays busy workaday world, most people don't even do surveys anymore. In the more literate age of 1913 and 1933, people more likely would do surveys. A higher number of reponders would probably altered the final result.

What was the response rate in 1913 and 1933? Higher than 50 percent? #The article fails to mention this but seems to be dead set to refute the Newsweek article. Surveys can be construed to mean anything. People talk differently today than they do in 1913. Ever read any old textbooks? People are more reflective and have more than 7 second thoughts for 7 second sound bytes. Is a 1913 survey even relevant in todays world?

It really seems like you have deep anger. Your answers seem to border on personal attacks. This is not what the boards are set up for. Perhaps the moderators should take more note of your tone. #Perhaps if you had a relationship with a loving personal God, he could help you with your anger issues! I do say, perhaps, becuase God doesn't force himself on people. Even believers.
People have to be open to Him.

AE6IP

03-30-2007, 05:02 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4UDV @ Mar. 29 2007,22:03)]Well Einstein said that Jesus was not a myth, in his opinion. Perhaps he was an agnostic. I havent studied him. I thought his quote was thoughtful, even if he was an Agnostic, he was careful in his statement and seemed to care about the topic of Jesus.
Einstein believed in "Spinoza's god" (his words). By this he meant that he believed that the universe is well ordered and runs on principles that are detectable and understandable. The comment about dice was a resistance of the concept of quantum randomness. Einstein was never comfortable with quantum mechanics because, when coupled with general relativity, it removes causality from physics and he could not accept a non-causal universie.

AE6IP

03-30-2007, 05:12 PM

Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Mar. 29 2007,23:55)]All aspects of our experiences are human, yet surely there are different levels. When I look at the sky on a clear, moonless night, or watch a sunset, or stand on a mountain top when the cloud suddenly clears, I feel a sensation that I can only describe as an expansion into another plane of experience. This is not of itself a religious experience but it can easily be described in such terms.
The Laughing Ghod in the Corner asks me to remind you that the Buddhists describe those experiences as moments of enlightenment. To them such experiences are merely lessons on the path to nirvana.

AE6IP

03-30-2007, 05:16 PM

Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 30 2007,00:17)]This is one of the fallacies of the monotheistic cults. They ascribe human emotion to a god of perfection. We consider jealousy and rage to be limitations of the human emotional experience, yet, a so called perfect god, in essence, throws tantrums?
Not all of the monotheistic cults claim perfection for their gods. Omnipotence and omniscience but not perfection. An imperfect all-knowing, all-powerful god is a fearsome thing to behold, and the god of the old testament describes itself as a jealous god. (It also mentions that there are other gods, something the monotheists tend to forget in their quoting of the OT)

I would think that the Laughing Ghod in the corner would have something to say about this, but it is currently throwing a perfect hissy fit.

AE6IP

03-30-2007, 05:20 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4UDV @ Mar. 30 2007,05:08)]Perhaps if you had a relationship with a loving personal God, he could help you with your anger issues!
unless it was a co-dependent relationship with a god that feeds on anger.

This is the beauty of the gods that man has made. They take whatever role their creator demanded of them.

WB2WIK

03-30-2007, 05:31 PM

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. I am the great and powerful Wizard of Oz. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

ab8ro

03-30-2007, 05:35 PM

Quote[/b] (KI4UDV @ Mar. 29 2007,07:08)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 29 2007,23:19)]Quote[/b] (KI4UDV @ Mar. 29 2007,00:03)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 29 2007,22:42)]
"I've snipped the rest."

Of course you did!
Indeed, read above for more explanation. You're the fool if you take the words of scientists over priests for your religious beliefs. They have nothing to say about god. Of course, neither do your priests, but at least they have the funny hats for extra credibility.

Quote[/b] ]
Other readers can scroll up to read the quotes I had from learned men.
http://www.leaderu.com/real/ri9501/bigbang2.html

It's great that you think scientists are "learned men", I'm guessing that you'll agree with the overwhelming majority who are atheists.

Quote[/b] ]
It seems you are incorrect about scientists being atheists. Perhaps you should hold your ears and make noise instead of reading the following quote from Dr. Shaefer..also found in this web page

"It is very rare that a physical scientist is truly an atheist

That might be Henry F. Schaefer's unsubstantiated opinion, however, the data disagrees with him. He should stick to chemistry and you should try this thing called reading, you might learn something.

Here's real data (http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm) for you. Choke on that for a while while you eat your own words.

That's right over 70% of scientists express disbelief in a personal god and immortality and over 20% express doubt or agnosticism. I could care less about splitting hairs over agnosticism vs atheism, however, because as has already been made clear, the gods of philosophers are uninteresting. The essence of this is that they reject silly belief systems like christianity and islam.
This study that you hold so near and dear to your heart has very narrow parameters."
There's this river in Africa, it's called denial. Perhaps you have some reputable data of your own? Yeah, I didn't think so. Try looking up the belief rate for scientists in the academy.

That study appeared in Nature, a journal full of articles by some of the world's most "learned" men. Now I see that your appreciation for "leranedness" that you were touting only a few posts ago, has waned.

BTW, you really have no sense of history whatsoever if you think that scientists in 1913/1914 were somehow universally religious.

Instead of trying to identify my psychological state, how about you produce data to back up your misconceptions of the world?

k4kyv

03-30-2007, 05:40 PM

Quote[/b] (ka8ncr @ Mar. 30 2007,04:36)]God just sent me an instant message. She says she's tired of the bickering on QRZ and she's going to start working on the band conditions in the morning
And if it doesn't stop immediately, Jesus will see his shadow and we'll have 6 more weeks of Lent.

ab8ro

03-30-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote[/b] (k4kyv @ Mar. 29 2007,11:40)]Quote[/b] (ka8ncr @ Mar. 30 2007,04:36)]God just sent me an instant message. #She says she's tired of the bickering on QRZ and she's going to start working on the band conditions in the morning
And if it doesn't stop immediately, Jesus will see his shadow and we'll have 6 more weeks of Lent.
I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.

ab8ro

03-30-2007, 05:55 PM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Mar. 29 2007,11:16)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 30 2007,00:17)]This is one of the fallacies of the monotheistic cults. They ascribe human emotion to a god of perfection. We consider jealousy and rage to be limitations of the human emotional experience, yet, a so called perfect god, in essence, throws tantrums?
Not all of the monotheistic cults claim perfection for their gods. Omnipotence and omniscience but not perfection. An imperfect all-knowing, all-powerful god is a fearsome thing to behold, and the god of the old testament describes itself as a jealous god. (It also mentions that there are other gods, something the monotheists tend to forget in their quoting of the OT)

I would think that the Laughing Ghod in the corner would have something to say about this, but it is currently throwing a perfect hissy fit.
Well, perhaps I should have been more narrow. I was primarily referring to the christian god. The old testament describes the "way of god", and the "will of god" as perfect in numerous places.

Of course, I don't actually expect the bible to be consistent.

ka5piu

03-30-2007, 05:55 PM

Hello.

I had to wait until I was able to see the survey for myself.
This survey has a very clearly defined church.
It totally ignores anybody who does not consider a building of worship in the Christian sense.
So, Muslims are all but excluded.
Just like Masons meet, not at a lodge but as a lodge, Muslims may meet at a building set aside for this but the building itself is not that important.
Muslims can, and do, pray everywhere.

ab8ro

03-30-2007, 06:03 PM

Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ Mar. 29 2007,11:55)]Hello.

I had to wait until I was able to see the survey for myself.
This survey has a very clearly defined church.
It totally ignores anybody who does not consider a building of worship in the Christian sense.
So, Muslims are all but excluded.
Just like Masons meet, not at a lodge but as a lodge, Muslims may meet at a building set aside for this but the building itself is not that important.
Muslims can, and do, pray everywhere.
Oh that's good work there. Why don't you write to Nature so that they can publish your marvelous insight? Please let us know how that works out.

Do you need help writing the letter?

k4uug

03-31-2007, 02:25 AM

Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 29 2007,02:04)]According to this (http://www.humaniststudies.org/enews/?id=281&article=0) report, a recent study suggests that religion is on the decline in the U.S. as fewer younger people are choosing to believe in <s>fairytales</s> god.

Quote[/b] ]
new survey in the U.S. shows that the number of 18-25 year olds who are atheist, agnostic or nonreligious has increased from 11 percent in 1986 to 20 percent today. Meanwhile a survey of the United States and the five largest countries in Western Europe reveals that religious belief continues to plummet in Europe, with Italy being the only country with a majority believing in any form of God or supreme being.

THE TRUTH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmLhyPjHVes)

kg4kww

03-31-2007, 02:30 AM

I agree there are a lot of young people who need to go to church and get right with god. It's not there fault they have been led astray by the devils goons or by hf addicts.

If more young people all over the world were in church I think the world would be a better place.

The Islam types are making things worse because all they teach is hate.

N2RJ

03-31-2007, 02:38 AM

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Mar. 30 2007,21:30)]I agree there are a lot of young people who need to go to church and get right with god.
For every young person (such as myself) that needs to go to church and get right with "god" there are ten bible beaters who need to shut the hell up and stop wasting my time.

Quote[/b] ]If more young people all over the world were in church I think the world would be a better place.

There's a bible beater at my job who has been disciplined a few times for getting into religious arguments with his coworkers. I think if he were fired, my workplace would be a better place.

Quote[/b] ]The Islam types are making things worse because all they teach is hate.

Pot, kettle black.

Who's dropping the bombs and killing people, Greg?

ab8ro

03-31-2007, 02:38 AM

Quote[/b] (k4uug @ Mar. 29 2007,20:25)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Mar. 29 2007,02:04)]According to this (http://www.humaniststudies.org/enews/?id=281&article=0) report, a recent study suggests that religion is on the decline in the U.S. as fewer younger people are choosing to believe in <s>fairytales</s> god.

Quote[/b] ]
new survey in the U.S. shows that the number of 18-25 year olds who are atheist, agnostic or nonreligious has increased from 11 percent in 1986 to 20 percent today. Meanwhile a survey of the United States and the five largest countries in Western Europe reveals that religious belief continues to plummet in Europe, with Italy being the only country with a majority believing in any form of God or supreme being.

THE #TRUTH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmLhyPjHVes)
Haahah, that's some funny stuff.

Now here's ACTUAL TRUTH (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1tW3p-zeq4)

N7VQM

03-31-2007, 05:09 AM

Quote[/b] (k8mhz @ Mar. 29 2007,19:08)]W.W.J.D.
WWJD?
JWRTFM!

God, as defined by all the pastors/preachers I have heard speak, is supernatural; something that can't be observed in the natural universe. Indeed, the Marriam-Webster definition for supernatural refers to god. If it can't be tested for, observed and recorded, I can't believe it exists.

KE5FRF

03-31-2007, 05:42 AM

Here we go again.

Methinks some folks need new material, or maybe, new obsessions.

K0HWY

03-31-2007, 07:59 AM

I see not much has changed around here.

Bait
Cast
Reel 'em in
Repeat

I kinda wish Winter would come back so I could come here and waste my time reading such tripe. But it's Spring . Lots to do. Carry on. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

ab8ro

04-03-2007, 01:12 AM

Quote[/b] (K0HWY @ Mar. 30 2007,01:59)]I see not much has changed around here.

Bait
Cast
Reel 'em in
Repeat

I kinda wish Winter would come back so I could come here and waste my time reading such tripe. But it's Spring . Lots to do. Carry on. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Are you suggesting that I'm some kind of a baiter. I simply report the news as I find it.

n2ize

04-03-2007, 01:50 AM

Quote[/b] (KW4MW @ Mar. 30 2007,05:50)]2izeQuote[/b] ]I sort of belive in a "God" too. I "belive" that I am God. #We are all "God". We have the "power of God" Instead of projecting the image of God on some supernatural obscure being we need to start projecting God onto what we do know, including ourselves. I am God. We are God.

Psalms 82:6 #I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34 #Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
That settles it !! I knew it. I knew it all along !! I am GOD!... well now what. I got to shovel the same schidt as everyone else.

n2ize

04-03-2007, 01:51 AM

Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ April 02 2007,18:12)]Quote[/b] (K0HWY @ Mar. 30 2007,01:59)]I see not much has changed around here.

Bait
Cast
Reel 'em in
Repeat

I kinda wish Winter would come back so I could come here and waste my time reading such tripe. But it's Spring . Lots to do. Carry on. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Are you suggesting that I'm some kind of a baiter. I simply report the news as I find it.
I hope you are not a master baiter. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

ab8ro

04-03-2007, 01:52 AM

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ April 01 2007,19:51)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ April 02 2007,18:12)]Quote[/b] (K0HWY @ Mar. 30 2007,01:59)]I see not much has changed around here.

Bait
Cast
Reel 'em in
Repeat

I kinda wish Winter would come back so I could come here and waste my time reading such tripe. But it's Spring . Lots to do. Carry on. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Are you suggesting that I'm some kind of a baiter. I simply report the news as I find it.
I hope you are not a master baiter. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I believe that's a sin.

k5xit

04-03-2007, 11:00 AM

Daryl, of course you only want to knock christianity but I do not think you really know what a christian is. FYI it is a person that believes Jesus Christ as the son of God. You do not have to be a Msthodest, Baptist, Catholic or any specific chruch member. If you choose not to beleive in God or even any greater power than yourself so be it. The bottom line is, most of us do not think we are the highest power. I had the opportunity a good many years ago to observe people praying to God that had never prayed before. It is funny how your views change when you know you may not see the sun come up tomorrow. Oh well as long as YOU are the supreme power you can just tell God to "stick it" ummm, why do that if he doesn't exist? Being Christian does not mean you must die on a cross nor take vows of poverty. Being a Christian is love. This does not mean you will not fight to protect what is near and dear to you. It means responsibility, decency. The ten commandments pretty well sum it up. You know Daryl, everyone, even you need a code to live by. Man cannot provide the inner peace and stability that one gets from God. Sure there are the fires of hell but one should do better because they love God not because of the just punishment if you curse God. All of us are sinners and only the grace of God can us from our selves yet grants the freedom to choose. You profess to be a deep thinker, think about it.

G8ADD

04-03-2007, 01:16 PM

Do you maintain that all of humanity born outside of the Holy Land and before the birth of Christ are burning in hellfire?

Do you maintain that any man who succeeds in living a good life but without believing in God will rot in hell?

If so you believe in a god with infinite power and infinite sadism.

73

Brian G8ADD

k5xit

04-03-2007, 03:33 PM

Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ April 03 2007,06:16)]Do you maintain that all of humanity born outside of the Holy Land and before the birth of Christ are burning in hellfire?

Do you maintain that any man who succeeds in living a good life but without believing in God will rot in hell?

If so you believe in a god with infinite power and infinite sadism.

73

Brian G8ADD
No way, if you simply read what I posted I did never suggest such a thing. #All the people in the old testament lived before the birth of Christ. #There were many people lived by the commands laid down. #The others died according to scripture. I do however caution those that belittle and scoff at the notion of God should make no long range plans. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif The apostle Paul did not beleive in god and perscuted christians; he finally saw the light. I find it sad that most vocal non-beleivers that try to force their way of thinking must feel really alone. They do not like it that way and want company.
I see that you want very much to disprove what I may post and that is Ok. It is your choice after all.

ab8ro

04-03-2007, 03:48 PM

Quote[/b] (k5xit @ April 02 2007,09:33)]Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ April 03 2007,06:16)]Do you maintain that all of humanity born outside of the Holy Land and before the birth of Christ are burning in hellfire?

Do you maintain that any man who succeeds in living a good life but without believing in God will rot in hell?

If so you believe in a god with infinite power and infinite sadism.

73

Brian G8ADD
No way, if you simply read what I posted I did never suggest such a thing. #All the people in the old testament lived before the birth of Christ. #There were many people lived by the commands laid down. #The others died according to scripture. I do however caution those that belittle and scoff at the notion of God should make no long range plans. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #The apostle Paul did not beleive in god and perscuted christians; he finally saw the light. #I find it sad that most vocal non-beleivers that try to force their way of thinking must feel really alone. #They do not like it that way and want company.
I see that you want very much to disprove what I may post and that is Ok. #It is your choice after all.
Nobody should make long range plans, death is guaranteed. It's why we invent religion in the first place.

G8ADD

04-03-2007, 05:10 PM

Quote[/b] (k5xit @ April 03 2007,08:33)]Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ April 03 2007,06:16)]Do you maintain that all of humanity born outside of the Holy Land and before the birth of Christ are burning in hellfire?

Do you maintain that any man who succeeds in living a good life but without believing in God will rot in hell?

If so you believe in a god with infinite power and infinite sadism.

73

Brian G8ADD
No way, if you simply read what I posted I did never suggest such a thing. All the people in the old testament lived before the birth of Christ. There were many people lived by the commands laid down. The others died according to scripture. I do however caution those that belittle and scoff at the notion of God should make no long range plans. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif The apostle Paul did not beleive in god and perscuted christians; he finally saw the light. I find it sad that most vocal non-beleivers that try to force their way of thinking must feel really alone. They do not like it that way and want company.
I see that you want very much to disprove what I may post and that is Ok. It is your choice after all.
On the contrary, I wanted to explore some of the parameters of your belief. There are many that would answer yes to the first two questions without considering that the positive answer implies my final statement. No hard feelings, but those who profess beliefs on this site must expect to have them tested.

(Not a problem to me, I have no beliefs, only questions and the occasional interim answers!)

73

Brian G8ADD