eBay and illegal radios / amplifiers...

[KC4RAN]

Browsing eBay, looking for a few things to fill out my station, putting in reports on all the illegal radios for sale, and then I run across an interesting ad.

It's an amplifier whose obvious use is 27MHz (input 5 watts, output over 600), and it's for sale by someone who lists themselves as a ham. Curious, I write to ask if it will work on CB.

The response:
"Hello-
I will give you my official line:
Use of power amplifiers on the 11 meter band are prohibited by the FCC. This amplifier exceeds the 5 watt power limit enforced by the FCC.
This amp will operate on 11 meter but is prohibited by law to use on those bands. "

Hrm... 'official' line. In other words, this guy doesn't care, probably knows it's illegal.

Anyway, I write fccham@fcc.gov to inform them of a ham selling questionable items, and this is their response:

"Thank you for the information you submitted, but the major on-line auction sites receive worldwide over 7 million ads a month and work in 7 countries. #They do a pretty good job of keeping equipment off their sites that is not certified, but cannot catch all of them. #We don’t have the resources to police every ad, just as we don’t check newspaper ads or yard sales or other internet auction sites .We are, however, interested in any information about marketing such items by manufacturers or distributors or large scale retail businesses."


Pretty good job? HUH? I try to track what I report. I have sent in several hundred reports, and I would guess that less than 5% of those have been removed. I escalated the issue to customer service, sent them an explicit list of the radios that are illegal for sale (with references, lists of citation numbers with radio makes/models), etc... #

Yet every day, you can find various 'export' or '10 meter' radios for sale. Ones like #<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Galaxy-DX-2517-Amateur-Base-Station-New-In-Box_W0QQitemZ250088964059QQihZ015QQcategoryZ150
2QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this one</a>, the Galaxy DX 2517... made illegal by this citation (http://swap.qth.com/fcc/fcc-citation-C20053238001.pdf). Think eBay will do anything about it?

So much for our FCC giving a crap...

[kn4ds]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Feb. 27 2007,20:14)]I have sent in several hundred reports, and I would guess that less than 5% of those have been removed. I escalated the issue to customer service, sent them an explicit list of the radios that are illegal for sale (with references, lists of citation numbers with radio makes/models), etc...
And we all appreciate your web-cop efforts... thank you for helping keep ebay cleaned up. If only we had more people who'd spend their time trolling websites like that for stuff they think might be illegal...

[VA3SAX]

I like the channel indicator on that rig you linked...very...um...I can't find the adjective but good job maybe if we're lucky they'll do something about this. I sure hope that the technicians who just got their capabilities aren't picking up these radios...you could get a much better rig for that price

[KC4RAN]

Stuff that I *think* might be illegal? Read the citation again. Or maybe I should say, read it for the first time before you come here squawking your ignorance.

There is a big list of radios that yes, Martha... are illegal for sale, even for advertisement for sale here in the U.S.

I know, I know... "But!! But!! I use this radio ever' day on 27MHz....er, I mean 28.325MHz an' it's FINE!"

I would ask if you cared about the fact that each time one of these piece of junk radios is sold, there's a good chance that we're losing another section of the lower part of 10 meters to truckers and freebanders.

But then I read your response again, and I realize that you're probably an owner of a similar radio. Hit a little close to a nerve there, eh? Got yer echo box, and some noise toys, Connex board, changed out the 'pills' so you can 'talk better'? Maybe a big ol 'leaner' in the slip seat?

The export radios, nearly everything marketed in the US by Galaxy, RCI/President/whatever-their-name-is-this-week, Connex, etc are all illegal according to the various FCC citations. If you have an issue with that, take it up with the FCC. I could care less what you think, because it's obvious where you stand. Those pesky "rules"...

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (VA3SAX @ Feb. 27 2007,19:18)]I like the channel indicator on that rig you linked...very...um...I can't find the adjective but good job maybe if we're lucky they'll do something about this. I sure hope that the technicians who just got their capabilities aren't picking up these radios...you could get a much better rig for that price
Based on the price, I'd say it's a good chance these are going to be bought by those very same individuals upgrading to 10M HF privileges. In most cases, that person isn't going to know the difference between one of these band-splatterers and a 'good' radio.

They're going to buy the cheapest thing that gets them on the air, and most of the ads for these things indicate that they're "10 meter" radios. Well, they started life that way. Maybe.

You'll really know once you hear someone calling CQ and during the QSO they say something like "I'm on band F, channel 22".

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Feb. 27 2007,20:14)]Browsing eBay, looking for a few things to fill out my station, putting in reports on all the illegal radios for sale, and then I run across an interesting ad.

It's an amplifier whose obvious use is 27MHz (input 5 watts, output over 600), and it's for sale by someone who lists themselves as a ham. Curious, I write to ask if it will work on CB.

The response:
"Hello-
I will give you my official line:
Use of power amplifiers on the 11 meter band are prohibited by the FCC. This amplifier exceeds the 5 watt power limit enforced by the FCC.
This amp will operate on 11 meter but is prohibited by law to use on those bands. "

Hrm... 'official' line. In other words, this guy doesn't care, probably knows it's illegal.

Anyway, I write fccham@fcc.gov to inform them of a ham selling questionable items, and this is their response:

"Thank you for the information you submitted, but the major on-line auction sites receive worldwide over 7 million ads a month and work in 7 countries. #They do a pretty good job of keeping equipment off their sites that is not certified, but cannot catch all of them. #We don’t have the resources to police every ad, just as we don’t check newspaper ads or yard sales or other internet auction sites .We are, however, interested in any information about marketing such items by manufacturers or distributors or large scale retail businesses."


Pretty good job? HUH? I try to track what I report. I have sent in several hundred reports, and I would guess that less than 5% of those have been removed. I escalated the issue to customer service, sent them an explicit list of the radios that are illegal for sale (with references, lists of citation numbers with radio makes/models), etc... #

Yet every day, you can find various 'export' or '10 meter' radios for sale. Ones like #<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Galaxy-DX-2517-Amateur-Base-Station-New-In-Box_W0QQitemZ250088964059QQihZ015QQcategoryZ150

2QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this one</a>, the Galaxy DX 2517... made illegal by this citation (http://swap.qth.com/fcc/fcc-citation-C20053238001.pdf). Think eBay will do anything about it?

So much for our FCC giving a crap...
So? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[kn4ds]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Feb. 27 2007,21:23)]I realize that you're probably an owner of a similar radio. Hit a little close to a nerve there, eh? Got yer echo box, and some noise toys, Connex board, changed out the 'pills' so you can 'talk better'? Maybe a big ol 'leaner' in the slip seat?
Now, now... let's just run down the list of transceivers here...

Radio Shack HTX-202 2m HT
Yaesu FT-2400 in the car
Yaesu FT-2200 here in the house
Yaesu FT-101E here in the house
Yaesu FT-101EE here in the house

Yeah, you're right, hit real close to a nerve there. Which of those is on your list? Those are the only things I own that're capable of transmitting RF... well, that's not completely accurate... I do have 2 Sprint CDMA cell phones, 3 Dish Network receivers that have TV channel 3-4 outputs, a Sirius receiver that can output anywhere from 88.1 to 107.9, two cordless 950MHz landline phones, a Linksys wireless router, and a VHS machine with channel 3-4 outputs. Wow, now that I look at all that, I better do an RF eval! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Frankly, I'm glad you've got nothing better to do than track this stuff down on ebay and elsewhere. It keeps you out of other folks' hair.

[KC4RAN]

So then what's your opposition to enforcing the rules? I mean, I guess you don't see a problem with selling a radio that says:

"Don't clip the blue wire (see included color picture). Clipping the blue wire would enable your transceiver to operate from 26.00MHz to 32.00MHz. This might be illegal where you live, so please don't clip the BLUE wire. Thank you."

If you read the citation, the FCC decided these radios are illegal because they're easily modified for expanded operation, and because they're not certified as CB radios. There is no such thing as a legal 'dual band' 10M/11M radio.

Oh well, I guess I expected too much out of this forum. What the FCC reaps (nearly nonexistent enforcement of the rules), it sows (amateurs who are ignorant of the rules, or who don't care if the spectrum granted to them is stomped all over).

[kd7msc]

I have a FT 101 that has the 11 meter band. Anything wrong with that?

[kn4ds]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Feb. 27 2007,22:21)]So then what's your opposition to enforcing the rules?
I have absolutely no opposition to enforcing the rules. If you want to be a self-appointed web-cop, more power to you.

[KC4RAN]

Nope. But the FT-101 isn't being sold as new today, and it's not being sold in quantities large enough to warrant the FCC's attention. If 3 out of every 4 truckstops sold FT-101s 'peaked and tuned' and with 'them extrey channels' it might be ruled illegal. But you and I know that isn't the root of this problem.

The FCC issued citations against various people for selling radios that are easily modified for expanded operation. They have ruled that they're illegal for sale (not just new), and even illegal to advertise for sale.

From what I understand of the rules, an amateur can operate on 27MHz, as long as the applicable rules for that band are followed with regards to power and frequency and frequency modes.

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (KE4UWL @ Feb. 27 2007,20:29)]Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Feb. 27 2007,22:21)]So then what's your opposition to enforcing the rules?
I have absolutely no opposition to enforcing the rules. #If you want to be a self-appointed web-cop, more power to you.
LOL... and so whose 'hair' am I getting in, exactly? One minute, you tell me I'm getting in someone else's hair, the next you say you have no problem with rules being enforced. Which is it?

And by the way, if you haven't noticed we're supposed to be (to a certain extent) a self-policed hobby. That's why fccham@fcc.gov exists. That's why the amateur enforcement bureau acts on reports from hams more actively than they do from most others.

Well... most of the time. Maybe.

When they do anything at all...

[ai4ep]

You COULD do it like I used to do it , back when I messed with cb radios...and was an amateur --- use an amateur rig for amateur frequencies, and a CB rig for CB communications ---or was that too complicated >? ?

That way, if I were mobile, I could listen to the truckers on channel 19 with the cb and talk on 10 meters with a 10 meter amateur rig...at the same time. Sure it required 2 microphones ( and the brain knowledge to tell one mike from the other ), but it was not THAT hard to do. Hey if a person from Alabama could do it, it shouldnt be a real challenge for your superior intelligence.

But these days, I dont even mess with CB at all, mobile or at home, and my radio areas are a lot quieter, cleaner on the ears, and ( most of all ) I aint missing nothing by not messing with the cb ( ssdd syndrone ) .

[KA4DPO]

Almost all of my pre 1957 gear has 11 meter capability, it used to be a ham band.

[n7rjd]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Feb. 27 2007,11:14)]Pretty good job? HUH? I try to track what I report. I have sent in several hundred reports, and I would guess that less than 5% of those have been removed.
If you do the same for the FCC I have a pretty good idea why they don't have the budget to follow up.

The fact is they are more interested in manufactures and distributors. This is good business sense. While the wait may be lengthy they are more likely to collect larger forfeitures from deeper pockets where they can wrap multiple violations into one proceeding.

Sure it would be nice if they could comb through eBay or if they had extra personnel that could follow up on each complaint but you have to remember they have to answer to their board of directors which in this case is basically the taxpayer. Taxpayers don't like extra government money being spent on such issues.

[ka5piu]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Feb. 27 2007,20:21)]radios. There is no such thing as a legal 'dual band' 10M/11M radio.
Hello.

What the FCC rules say is that the radio must be FCC type accepted for CB radio service.
There is nothing in the rules that says that an FCC approved radio can not be used in the 10 meter band.
What the rules say is that it is against the law to mod a radio and than use it on CB.
So, with an old Hammarlund HQ-105, I asked the FCC.
http://www.yesterdaysradios.com/forsale/forsale16.html
That is legal, as it was FCC type accepted at the time for 11 and 10 meters.
Next, I asked about CEPT radios.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens'_band_radio
The FCC said fine, this was a case by case review, it does not apply to anyone else.
Next, I asked about CB radio kits, they were made at one time, even Heathkit had a few.
By this point the FCC simply gave up on it.
So, the mods to the autopage units.
This is a car alarm that transmits on the 27 MHz RC channels with 5 watts.
All this back and forth between the FCC and I was started by some SuperHamster &reg; who was somewhat upset over my use of both 27.185 MHz and 28.185 MHz.
I use both in a totally legal manner, no roger beeps.
What I do is use tone based selective calling on the R/C channels.
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7....207.htm (http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/13nov20061500/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2006/octqtr/47cfr95.207.htm)
He finally got his when he decided to track down a signal.
This led him to some girl who totally freaked.
Her boyfriend almost beat him to death.
After that the police pounced on him.
Mr. save the world found a bumper beeper.
http://www.stopcovertwar.com/tests.html
The people who write that type of thing are nuts, and sometimes quite violant.
And usually into drugs.
So, yes, there are people who are using "freeband", but that is not the great priority right now.
People running drugs or building bombs is where it is at.

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ Feb. 27 2007,22:07)]Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Feb. 27 2007,21:21)]So then what's your opposition to enforcing the rules? I mean, I guess you don't see a problem with selling a radio that says:

"Don't clip the blue wire (see included color picture). Clipping the blue wire would enable your transceiver to operate from 26.00MHz to 32.00MHz. This might be illegal where you live, so please don't clip the BLUE wire. Thank you."

If you read the citation, the FCC decided these radios are illegal because they're easily modified for expanded operation, and because they're not certified as CB radios. There is no such thing as a legal 'dual band' 10M/11M radio.

Oh well, I guess I expected too much out of this forum. What the FCC reaps (nearly nonexistent enforcement of the rules), it sows (amateurs who are ignorant of the rules, or who don't care if the spectrum granted to them is stomped all over).
Yes, let's slam the new amateurs since you have issues with the FCC.
Cheap shot, assuming that a new amateur is a freebander, but it's to be expected from amateurs with a problem towards those who upgraded without Element 1.

You want to report violations, report them to eBay. The FCC doesn't have the manning, or sometimes even the inclination to go after individuals, unless they're selling illegal gear by the truckload.

Your wanting to make sure that the amateur bands are kept free from people who would abuse such equipment is admirable. Your shot at a new amateur simply because he is new (and doesn't know CODE! GASP!) was cheap, unfair, and mean spirited.
No, I never assumed that a new amateur is a freebander. I'm assuming that a new amateur looking for something to operate his new 10-meter phone privileges (which is the only place he has phone privs) is going to be looking for the least expensive solution. And as for the shot at a new amateur because he is new, it has nothing to do with ANYTHING except the fact that a new (to HF) ham is probably not going to know the difference between one of these inexpensive retuned CB radios and what you or I would consider a real radio. They don't know the technical reasons why the retuned CB is junk, and they might not know the implications of operating outside their assigned frequencies. And with a frequency indication method that involves a chart which lists 'band' and 'channel', it is very easy to find yourself operating outside your privileges. And it has nothing to do with code or the lack thereof. This has nothing to do with that war.

These radios are the least expensive solution to get on 10 meters SSB or (sometimes) FM. An inexperienced new operator is most likely going to be looking for the cheapest solution.


And I do report them to eBay, not the FCC. I didn't even report the homebrew CB amplifier that quoted 10KW-15KW output to the FCC. I did report it to eBay. I did quote it to their customer service department. All of this happened well before the 7 day ad closed. Guess what happened? Yep, it sold, and eBay got their cut of the (I believe) $5000+ sale.

If the FCC wants to find out who is selling these amplifiers and radios 'by the truckload' (and assuming they don't know who is moving them wholesale), wouldn't it make sense to go after the distributor who has 15-20 amplifiers listed every day, and the 4-5 others who sell the same or similar products, bust them, and find out who they buy from?

No, I guess that makes too much sense.

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ Feb. 27 2007,21:45)]Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Feb. 27 2007,20:21)]radios. There is no such thing as a legal 'dual band' 10M/11M radio.
Hello.

What the FCC rules say is that the radio must be FCC type accepted for CB radio service.
There is nothing in the rules that says that an FCC approved radio can not be used in the 10 meter band.
What the rules say is that it is against the law to mod a radio and than use it on CB.
You are correct in what you say about radios that were sold in the past, but the FCC has issued 'clarifications', and is using those clarifications within these various citations for dealing with radios being sold now.

Here's a quote from the citation, you can read it for yourself. They basically lay out the problem with these radios. If they operate on CB, they have to be certified and properly labeled with that FCC certification. The radios in question "are not only amateur radios but can easily be altered for use as Citizens Band devices as well." #They go on to state that they can't be both, and the FCC is classifying them as CBs. As such, they're not certified... The interesting part is "See also FCC 88-256, 1988 WL 488084 (August 17, 1988). This clarification was added to explicitly foreclose the possibility of certification of dual use CB and amateur radios, see id., and thereby deter use by CB operators of frequencies allocated for amateur radio use. "

So in 1988 (well after the FT-101s and the like), the FCC decided that they had had enough of the 'clip this wire, works on CB' stuff. They used this rewording to make the radios illegal, and the citations are used to clarify exactly which devices have been found to be illegal for sale.


Anyway, here (http://www.arrl.org/news/enforcement_logs/2004/0207.html) is the enforcement log, and quoted below is the excerpt, for your viewing pleasure.

---------------

According to the Commission's records, these devices have not received an FCC equipment authorization which is required for Citizens Band transmitters marketed in the United States.


3. Section 302(b) of the Act2 provides "[n]o person shall manufacture, import, sell, offer for sale, or ship devices or home electronic equipment and systems, or use devices, which fail to comply with regulations promulgated pursuant to this section." Section 2.803(a)(1) of the Rules3 provides that "... no person shall sell or lease, or offer for sale or lease (including advertising for sale or lease), or import, ship or distribute for the purpose of selling or leasing or offering for sale or lease, any radio frequency device unless: (1) In the case of a device subject to certification, such device has been authorized by the Commission in accordance with the rules in this chapter and is properly identified and labeled ...." Mr. Jonathan Edward Stone's (d.b.a. Omnitronics / Pacetronics) offer for sale of these devices violates both sections.


4. Mr. Jonathan Edward Stone d.b.a. Omnitronics / Pacetronics marketed these devices as amateur transceivers. The Commission has evaluated radiofrequency devices similar to those listed in paragraph 2 and concluded that the devices at issue are not only amateur radios but can easily be altered for use as Citizens Band devices as well. A CB transmitter is a transmitter that operates or is intended to operate at a station authorized for the CB service, and it must be certificated by the FCC prior to marketing or importation.[4] The Commission has further concluded that these devices fall within the definition of a CB transmitter and therefore cannot legally be imported or marketed in the United States. See Response from the Commission's General Counsel to U.S. Customs Service dated May 17, 1999, 14 FCC Rcd 7797 (1999).


5. Additionally, dual use CB and amateur radios of the kind at issue here may not be certificated under the Commission's rules. Section 95.655(a) of the rules[5] states: ". . . . ([CB] Transmitters with frequency capability for the Amateur Radio Services . . . . will not be certificated.)" See also FCC 88-256, 1988 WL 488084 (August 17, 1988). This clarification was added to explicitly foreclose the possibility of certification of dual use CB and amateur radios, see id., and thereby deter use by CB operators of frequencies allocated for amateur radio use.


6. Furthermore, the Commission has revised Section 2.1204(a)(5) of its rules[6] to prohibit all marketing and/or offering for sale in the United States of such devices even when the purchaser(s) had provided assurances that the transceivers are being bought solely for export. ALL DOMESTIC MARKETING OF SUCH DEVICES VIOLATES THE COMMUNICATIONS ACT OF 1934, AS AMENDED, AND THE COMMISSION'S RULES.


7. In addition to the marketing of the non-certified transceivers addressed above, Mr. Jonathan Edward Stone d.b.a. Omnitronics / Pacetronics is warned that Section 302(b) of the Act2, and Section 2.815© of the Commission's Rules[7] requires FCC Type Acceptance (or Certification) of External Radio Frequency Power Amplifiers (or amplifier kits) capable of operation on any frequency or frequencies below 144 MHz. Furthermore, Section 2.815(b) of the Commission's Rules[8] prohibits the marketing of External Radio Frequency Power Amplifiers (or amplifier kits) capable of operation on any frequency or frequencies between 24 and 35 MHz.

[ka5piu]

Hello.

My gripe is all the more valid now.
I was a novice for ages, so I had the same spectrum that the new techs have, but no VHF and above.
28.3 to 28.5 Mc was just fine with me.
But, some felt that this was somehow wrong.
Now, the very people who were on my arse have a whole new bunch to go after.
And that is wrong.

[w7act]

Why Hell I guess all three of my HF Radios are Illegal by your standards as they've all been opened up, they'll not only receive on Eleven Meters , they'll also transmit there. Both the IC-746 & IC-706 MKII were opened up by Icom's Radio Tech and HRO opened up the IC-7000 for me. Go ahead turn me into the FCC for having illegal radio Equipment, but before you do you had better get your facts straight. They are legal and it didn't void the warranty on the IC-7000 as I am an MARS operator and I operate on MARS Frequencies.

[KC4RAN]

Before you go flying off the handle, go read the FCC citation. Geez.

There is a group of manufacturers marketing '10 meter' radios that are very easy to open up for use on 27MHz. They're trying to get around the strict rules on CB radios in the US by claiming they're amateur radios, not CB. The FCC called them on it, saying basically that we don't care what you call it, it's classified as a CB.

Interesting quote from another one of your posts...

"there's room for all of us if we'll just show some common courtesy towards each other"

Hrm....

[wa3vjb]

I'm a little late to this party, but there has never been much stomach for point-of-sale restrictions on ham gear. A purchase would require proof of being licensed.

That would be one way of limiting the crossover between rigs intended for ham use, and other destinations.

[n8yx]

Quote[/b] (kd7msc @ Feb. 27 2007,20:27)]I have a FT 101 that has the 11 meter band. Anything wrong with that?
Only if you transmit on 11M with it.

By the way - Yaesu removed that band from its subsequent ham transceiver models. Care to guess why? (Hint: We hams lost 11M as an ARS 'secondary' band LONG before the '101 line began production.)

[n8yx]

Quite telling is the number of replies which seem to actually endorse the sale of blatantly illegal radio equipment - so-called 'low drive' amplifiers, 'export' CBs and so forth.

Guess it's not a problem until one of those splatterboxes shows up in your neighborhood, correct?

As much as 'KWH gets on my nerves with his folksy, half-baked/dumb-@ssed mockery of the 11M crowd, this time I think he's right ...

[n8yx]

Quote[/b] (w7act @ Feb. 28 2007,01:31)]Why Hell I guess all three of my HF Radios are Illegal by your standards as they've all been opened up, they'll not only receive on Eleven Meters , they'll also transmit there. Both the IC-746 & IC-706 MKII were opened up by Icom's Radio Tech and HRO opened up the IC-7000 for me. Go ahead turn me into the FCC for having illegal radio Equipment, but before you do you had better get your facts straight. They are legal and it didn't void the warranty on the IC-7000 as I am an MARS operator and I operate on MARS Frequencies.
There's a difference between MARS operation and 11M usage. Run any of those on CB and get caught doing it: Kiss your Amateur license and MARS privileges bye-bye.

[VE1IDX]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Feb. 27 2007,23:35)]From what I understand of the rules, an amateur can operate on 27MHz, as long as the applicable rules for that band are followed with regards to power and frequency and frequency modes.
In that regard an amateur is no differant than anybody else. An amateur MUST use an FCC certified radio when on 11m and that means he MUST use only a legal CB radio.Even an amateur cannot use his HF rig or a so called export radio on 11m whether he runs 1 watt or 4 watts and stays on the legal 40 channels or not.

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Feb. 27 2007,18:14)]Browsing eBay, looking for a few things to fill out my station, putting in reports on all the illegal radios for sale, and then I run across an interesting ad.

It's an amplifier whose obvious use is 27MHz (input 5 watts, output over 600), and it's for sale by someone who lists themselves as a ham. Curious, I write to ask if it will work on CB.

The response:
"Hello-
I will give you my official line:
Use of power amplifiers on the 11 meter band are prohibited by the FCC. This amplifier exceeds the 5 watt power limit enforced by the FCC.
This amp will operate on 11 meter but is prohibited by law to use on those bands. "

Hrm... 'official' line. In other words, this guy doesn't care, probably knows it's illegal.

Anyway, I write fccham@fcc.gov to inform them of a ham selling questionable items, and this is their response:

"Thank you for the information you submitted, but the major on-line auction sites receive worldwide over 7 million ads a month and work in 7 countries. They do a pretty good job of keeping equipment off their sites that is not certified, but cannot catch all of them. We don’t have the resources to police every ad, just as we don’t check newspaper ads or yard sales or other internet auction sites .We are, however, interested in any information about marketing such items by manufacturers or distributors or large scale retail businesses."


Pretty good job? HUH? I try to track what I report. I have sent in several hundred reports, and I would guess that less than 5% of those have been removed. I escalated the issue to customer service, sent them an explicit list of the radios that are illegal for sale (with references, lists of citation numbers with radio makes/models), etc...

Yet every day, you can find various 'export' or '10 meter' radios for sale. Ones like <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Galaxy-DX-2517-Amateur-Base-Station-New-In-Box_W0QQitemZ250088964059QQihZ015QQcategoryZ150


2QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this one</a>, the Galaxy DX 2517... made illegal by this citation (http://swap.qth.com/fcc/fcc-citation-C20053238001.pdf). Think eBay will do anything about it?

So much for our FCC giving a crap...
I think the FCC made it pretty clear: They DO NOT HAVE the personnel or resources to go after private sales or "one off" sales of even quiestionable equipment. They WILL be interested in someone selling multiple units on a retail basis.

Also bear in mind, that eBay isn't necessarily a U.S. only business. While amps in the U.S. must be certified, and the one you mention is probably illegal to sell on the open market, EXCEPT to another Amateur Radio Operator who intends to use it in their station, or to a legitimate dealer, such equipment may in fact be legal, or at least unregulated, in other countries.

And while I agree the normal intent of an amp that has 5 W in for "600 Watts" out (probably grossly overstated rating) is most likely intended as an illegal "Class D CB" amp, there are QRP AMateur radios that have a 5-10 Watt output that could benefit from such a design.
The problem is that such amps are often NOT well filtered and additional circuitry would need to be added to comply with FCC technical standards for spurious emissions and harmonic suppresion. And if not bandswitched, would only be usable on one or two Amateur bands.
Also bear in mind, that an amp that works on 10 Meters, will almost always also work on 11 Meters. That is one of the dodges the producers of illegal amps employ to try to get around FCC rules. They CLAIM the equipment is for 10 Meters, but know full well that's not the real intent.


We as hams need to understand (a dose of reality here) that AMateur Radio is NOT the most important, or even the only service, of which the FCC has to worry about. And Amateur Radio does NOT produce any direct monetary contribution to the FCC's budget, (except perhaps, the vanity fees, but those are a mere drop in the bucket of a Fedreal entity's budget!)
They would love to have stricter, or at least more complete enforcement, but on a realistic scale, individual enforcement actions just aren't practical.

Do the police in your town catch EVERY speeder? EVERY person who rolls through a stop sign, or makes a "right turn on red" where the oncoming traffic with the right of way has to screech to a halt or swerve to avoid a collision?

No offense, but I'd rather spend my time operating on the Amateur bands than perusing eBay and other sites looking for "illegal" or even questionable sales by individuals.

OK, there IS a solution. Get a benefactor with lots of $$$ and BUY ALL the illegal stuff yourself. Then bring it to the next local hamfest, and have a "sledgehammer fest!"
For $1.00, any ham can take a swing at an illegal piece of equipment. (Maybe even give a discount for multiple whacks; say 10 for $7.00) That would get the illegal equipment off the market and out of the hands of CB'ers.

[KD5SHW]

I didn't see anything in the original post that questions how well the amp was designed. Honestly, I don't care if an amplifier can put out a megawatt with a milliwatt drive. Have at it as long as the output is clean.

I have a rig that can transmit on CB frequencies. If I ever sold it I wouldn't mind if the person told me they were going to use it for CB. 100W of clean RF on CB isn't going to bother anyone.

Hams just seem to enjoy making up enemies of their hobby. Amplifiers that have "too much gain" on CB frequencies just aren't that big of a deal.

[ka7fox]

Has anyone thought about just clicking "report this listing" and moving on?

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (ka7fox @ Mar. 02 2007,08:48)]Has anyone thought about just clicking "report this listing" and moving on?
When you click the "Report this item" button for hundreds of different items, all demonstrably illegal for sale... and when you send the reference material for verifying that the item is illegal (complete with FCC links containing makes and model numbers)...

and when eBay removes about 5% of the ones you report...

Then there's a problem. That's why I started this thread. It amazes me that the FCC actually thinks that eBay does a 'pretty god job', when I rarely see any of the illegal radios pulled... and when a 10-15KW amplifier makes it through 7 days and sells for over $5k.

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (KD5SHW @ Mar. 02 2007,01:06)]I didn't see anything in the original post that questions how well the amp was designed. #Honestly, I don't care if an amplifier can put out a megawatt with a milliwatt drive. #Have at it as long as the output is clean. #

I have a rig that can transmit on CB frequencies. #If I ever sold it I wouldn't mind if the person told me they were going to use it for CB. #100W of clean RF on CB isn't going to bother anyone. #

Hams just seem to enjoy making up enemies of their hobby. #Amplifiers that have "too much gain" on CB frequencies just aren't that big of a deal.
"I have a commercial amplifier that can output 50KW. #If I ever sold it I wouldn't mind if the person told me they were going to use it for ham radio. #30KW of clean RF on ham radio isn't going to bother anyone. "

Fixed it for you, to put it in perspective.

[KD5SHW]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Mar. 02 2007,11:46)]"I have a commercial amplifier that can output 50KW. If I ever sold it I wouldn't mind if the person told me they were going to use it for ham radio. 30KW of clean RF on ham radio isn't going to bother anyone. "

Fixed it for you, to put it in perspective.
Well assuming they would use it at full power and not operate it at the legal limit:

Really 50kW of clean rf isn't going to bother anyone on amateur frequencies unless they transmit over someone. Unless your antenna is close to them and it overloads the front end of your receiver you won't have any problems. 1.5kW can overload nearby receivers too. If they want to risk losing their license let them have at it.

I can't imagine getting rid of an amplifier like that, but if I ever wanted to I would probably sell it to a ham.

[wd0ct]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Mar. 02 2007,09:42)]Quote[/b] (ka7fox @ Mar. 02 2007,08:48)]Has anyone thought about just clicking "report this listing" and moving on?
When you click the "Report this item" button for hundreds of different items, all demonstrably illegal for sale... and when you send the reference material for verifying that the item is illegal (complete with FCC links containing makes and model numbers)...

and when eBay removes about 5% of the ones you report...

Then there's a problem. That's why I started this thread. It amazes me that the FCC actually thinks that eBay does a 'pretty god job', when I rarely see any of the illegal radios pulled... and when a 10-15KW amplifier makes it through 7 days and sells for over $5k.
So what do you think this thread will accomplish?

This is not news to any of us. We have seen plenty of these posts.

Keep up your crusade and by all means keep ratting out hams trying to unload crap cb amps while there are a few cbers still alive to buy them.

Who knows, you may be the one to turn the fcc and ebay around to your liking. Just don't bet the milk money on it.

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Mar. 02 2007,11:46)]Quote[/b] (KD5SHW @ Mar. 02 2007,01:06)]I didn't see anything in the original post that questions how well the amp was designed. #Honestly, I don't care if an amplifier can put out a megawatt with a milliwatt drive. #Have at it as long as the output is clean. #

I have a rig that can transmit on CB frequencies. #If I ever sold it I wouldn't mind if the person told me they were going to use it for CB. #100W of clean RF on CB isn't going to bother anyone. #

Hams just seem to enjoy making up enemies of their hobby. #Amplifiers that have "too much gain" on CB frequencies just aren't that big of a deal.
"I have a commercial amplifier that can output 50KW. #If I ever sold it I wouldn't mind if the person told me they were going to use it for ham radio. #30KW of clean RF on ham radio isn't going to bother anyone. "

Fixed it for you, to put it in perspective.
I'm just curious, who is the manufacturer of your amp? Most, if not all amplifiers capable of that kind of power are commercial broadcast transmitters.

What does it use for a power supply?

How much does it weigh?

What frequency is it designed to operate on?

Is it water or air cooled?

Inquiring minds want to know.... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[W2USM]

HOLY SMOKES!
Another Ham Cop... Jeez just what we need... The FCC doesn't really give a crap cause they can't police everything, the first order of business would be to contact eBay and not be a tattle-tale to the FCC.. What do you think you accomplish by putting more meaningless crap that the FCC clearly can't do anything about in their laps...
Step 1. Contact eBay
Step 2. Wait for a reply from eBaq
Step 3. Take A shot of whiskey
Step 4. Have a good cry
Step 5. When you wake up in the morning all will be fine..

<span style='color:red'>Sarge 3:16
"And That's The Bottom Line Cause Sarge Said So"</span>

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (wd0ct @ Mar. 02 2007,12:27)]Keep up your crusade and by all means keep ratting out hams trying to unload crap cb amps while there are a few cbers still alive to buy them.
First off, if you had read the original post completely (I know, too much to ask... easier for you to skim a bit and throw in your flame), you would find there are two issues:

1) Illegal CB amps for sale (mostly used, some new). Glad to know you would rather let someone 'unload crap cb amps' to someone rather than follow the rules. I know, they're pesky...

2) Illegal radios for sale (mostly new, some used). These are the ones that eBay has no excuse for. There's a list out there, well published, of models. There's no question for a very long list of radios. The FCC says they're illegal to sell, illegal to advertiset for sale. No grey areas, no "but they're legal for hams".


But hey, it makes my heart warm to see all the hams who would rather ignore the rules and talk bad about "web cops", about people "getting in someone's hair"... people who think it's OK to output 20 times the legal limit of power - just as long as the output is 'clean'.

Makes me feel good. I mean, yeah the only thing standing between CB and amateur radio are those pesky rules... telling you what you can and can't do, but hey... those rules get in the way of so much, no reason to enforce those rules. I mean, you ain't hurtin nobody by breakin that rule!

Tahn-Fer!?

[wd0ct]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Mar. 02 2007,17:57)]Quote[/b] (wd0ct @ Mar. 02 2007,12:27)]Keep up your crusade and by all means keep ratting out hams trying to unload crap cb amps while there are a few cbers still alive to buy them.
First off, if you had read the original post completely (I know, too much to ask... easier for you to skim a bit and throw in your flame), you would find there are two issues:

1) Illegal CB amps for sale (mostly used, some new). Glad to know you would rather let someone 'unload crap cb amps' to someone rather than follow the rules. I know, they're pesky...

2) Illegal radios for sale (mostly new, some used). These are the ones that eBay has no excuse for. There's a list out there, well published, of models. There's no question for a very long list of radios. The FCC says they're illegal to sell, illegal to advertiset for sale. No grey areas, no "but they're legal for hams".


But hey, it makes my heart warm to see all the hams who would rather ignore the rules and talk bad about "web cops", about people "getting in someone's hair"... people who think it's OK to output 20 times the legal limit of power - just as long as the output is 'clean'.

Makes me feel good. I mean, yeah the only thing standing between CB and amateur radio are those pesky rules... telling you what you can and can't do, but hey... those rules get in the way of so much, no reason to enforce those rules. I mean, you ain't hurtin nobody by breakin that rule!

Tahn-Fer!?
Like I said keep up your crusade. By all means keep up the anal retentive whining too.

I'm sure you will have much success with both.

Please keep us updated on your successful efforts. We are all dying to know how you resolve this weighty issue.

[k2gsp]

Quote[/b] (n8yx @ Feb. 27 2007,06:49)]Quite telling is the number of replies which seem to actually endorse the sale of blatantly illegal radio equipment - so-called 'low drive' amplifiers, 'export' CBs and so forth.

Guess it's not a problem until one of those splatterboxes shows up in your neighborhood, correct?

As much as 'KWH gets on my nerves with his folksy, half-baked/dumb-@ssed mockery of the 11M crowd, this time I think he's right ...
Thats what I thought too. It's all fun till one of them is parked up the road from your house and then you'll be wishing somebody had done something about it sooner.

I also don't understand why people have such a problem with turning this sort of thing in. Rules , regs and laws exist for a reason. Johnny Q Public in most cases doesn't know CB from AR. All he knows is someone with a radio is screwing up his new big screen TV and he will remember that and act accordingly when the HOA's put up rules for him to vote on. It is a bad PR thing and it can be dealt with if people don't look the other way. Just my two cents and I could be wrong.

Greg

[WA9SVD]

There seems to a bit of a misunderstanding about the "illegal status" of equipment.

Uncertified equipment meant to be used on CB, or dual CB/Amateur Radios (which the FCC will NOT certify) can NOT be sold, advertised for sale, etc. by retailers to persons in the U.S. (Hence the euphamism "Export model" is often used.)
It is NOT illegal for a licensed Amateur radio operator to posess such a radio, OR to sell it (privately) to another licensed Amateur Radio Operator, or to a legitimate dealer.

While it would be LEGAL for an Amateur to use such a dual-service radio, an Amateur would ONLY be ably to use it on the Amateur bands; he/she could NOT legally use it on CB.

Similarly, an Amateur could legally posess and use a "low drive power" amplifier, as long as it met the spectral purity standards for AMateur equipment. He COULD sell it to another licensed Amateur, or a legitimate dealer.

But the truth is that many (not necessarily all) of the radios and amps that are designed with CB in mind are low quality, poorly filtered, and very often grossly overrated as to power output capability. (Similar to how HiFi equipment was hawked many years ago. Often a true 20 Watt amp would get an 80-100 watt rating, but that was absolute peak power, and at as much as 50% distortion.)

The equipment IS LEGAL to be owned by Amateurs, but they may not sell it to just anyone, and the equipment can only be used on Amateur frequencies.

But I don't think many here are actually endorsing or approving of the retail sale of such non-certified equipment intended for the CB Service.
But there ARE provisions for AMateurs to legally sell such equipment, normally USED, to other Amateurs.

[KA4DPO]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Mar. 02 2007,19:57)]Quote[/b] (wd0ct @ Mar. 02 2007,12:27)]Keep up your crusade and by all means keep ratting out hams trying to unload crap cb amps while there are a few cbers still alive to buy them.
First off, if you had read the original post completely (I know, too much to ask... easier for you to skim a bit and throw in your flame), you would find there are two issues:

1) Illegal CB amps for sale (mostly used, some new). Glad to know you would rather let someone 'unload crap cb amps' to someone rather than follow the rules. I know, they're pesky...

2) Illegal radios for sale (mostly new, some used). These are the ones that eBay has no excuse for. There's a list out there, well published, of models. There's no question for a very long list of radios. The FCC says they're illegal to sell, illegal to advertiset for sale. No grey areas, no "but they're legal for hams".


But hey, it makes my heart warm to see all the hams who would rather ignore the rules and talk bad about "web cops", about people "getting in someone's hair"... people who think it's OK to output 20 times the legal limit of power - just as long as the output is 'clean'.

Makes me feel good. I mean, yeah the only thing standing between CB and amateur radio are those pesky rules... telling you what you can and can't do, but hey... those rules get in the way of so much, no reason to enforce those rules. I mean, you ain't hurtin nobody by breakin that rule!

Tahn-Fer!?
KC4RAN That's all very nice but you still didn't tell me about your 50 KW amplifier.

I'm curious, who is the manufacturer of your amp? #Most, if not all amplifiers capable of that kind of power are commercial broadcast transmitters. #

What does it use for a power supply?

How much does it weigh?

What frequency is it designed to operate on?

Is it water or air cooled?

[K0CRX]

RAN - I completely support your gallant effort to help remove illegal radio equipment from ebay. You are not alone!

DPO, UWL, MSC, SWH, USM, CT, and the rest of you who belittle RAN for his effort - I just made my daily pass through ebay and reported another dozen 11-meter amplifiers and free-band radios. Feel free to add me to your lists.

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Mar. 03 2007,11:52)]
So far, all we know is that the FCC has cited a number of people for selling these radios. Nowhere in the citations is there any language about defining the method of sale - it doesn't limit it to 'retail sale'. Therefore, it would not be a reasonable defense to say "Yeah, I read the citations, I know that you guys said it was illegal to sell those, but I didn't think it applied to *me*, a ham... so I sold it to my bud here as a private sale."

It is just as illegal to advertise a used model of those radios as an individual on eBay, or in a local ham club magazine as it is for these guys to sell them via retail. I have not read a citation yet that makes any distinction, it just says 'sale'.



DPO - you can drop it now. It was an example, and you know it. Thanks.



And as for no one endorsing or approving... sure coulda fooled me! I mean, there's a whole group of people poking fun at others for attempting to get the rules enforced. What's the point of trying to discourage rule enforcement, unless you don't agree with the rule for some reason?

And while there may be provisions for certain equipment to be owned and operated by hams, it would be a stretch for someone to defend ownership and operation of a device which cannot legally be sold (by anyone) in the US, imported into the US... so how'd you get it? Magic?

Before you start trying to say that hams can sell em privately, remember that it's the citations themselves which have explicitly made these radios illegal for sale and advertisement. The FCC quotes the rule and section that makes it illegal. I would love to see someone quote a citation or rule that specifically negates the rules being quoted, but I can't find it. Even then, remember the citations are being used as extensions to the rules, since the radios are officially being sold as amateur radios - to which the FCC said "Uh, no they're not."

Be really hard to defend at that point, after the FCC has already said they're CBs.

[kn4ds]

Look... rules should be enforced. I believe that if you run across something that violates the rules, we should inform the other person, and if they don't correct the problem, sure, report them. All of us have that responsibility.

Note that I said "run across."

When you come on a ham forum and imply that you spend time *seeking out* violators, you set yourself up for the "ham cop" moniker. And your original post also suggested you got upset that the Commission didn't pat you on the head and say "good job, we're gonna bust these scofflaws right now!"

Continue your crusade, but when you come here and post like your original post, don't be surprised when some of us wonder out loud if you don't have way too much time on your hands.

[w4pjh]

...my head hurts...

[wd0ct]

Quote[/b] (k0crx @ Mar. 03 2007,12:27)]RAN - I completely support your gallant effort to help remove illegal radio equipment from ebay. #You are not alone!

DPO, UWL, MSC, SWH, USM, CT, and the rest of you who belittle RAN for his effort - I just made my daily pass through ebay and reported another dozen 11-meter amplifiers and free-band radios. #Feel free to add me to your lists.
CRX, good for you. How many did ebay jerk after your reporting?

We are expecting daily updates from you and RAN on your efforts to get ebay and the fcc in compliance with the law. This is vital to continued successful operation of the amateur and cb communities.

I think we need more dedicated hammie cops such as yourself and RAN.

Have either of you volunteered for the ARRL OO program? They need help and you two would be naturals. You both would have plenty of time to scan our bands for scofflaws after your ebay scanning duties were properly completed.

Of course these jobs are not to be taken lightly. They demand vigilance, a good work ethic, and several hours each and every day to keep on top of violators.

I'm confident that you guys are up to the job.

[ai4ep]

...pot...kettle...black...

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (wd0ct @ Mar. 03 2007,16:55)]Quote[/b] (k0crx @ Mar. 03 2007,12:27)]RAN - I completely support your gallant effort to help remove illegal radio equipment from ebay. #You are not alone!

DPO, UWL, MSC, SWH, USM, CT, and the rest of you who belittle RAN for his effort - I just made my daily pass through ebay and reported another dozen 11-meter amplifiers and free-band radios. #Feel free to add me to your lists.
CRX, good for you. How many did ebay jerk after your reporting?


Have either of you volunteered for the ARRL OO program? They need help and you two would be naturals. You both would have plenty of time to scan our bands for scofflaws after your ebay scanning duties were properly completed.
Ahh I think I understand now. Sounds like someone has gotten a few letters in the mail for operation violations. So exactly which rules do you have a problem with?

[WA9SVD]

If you read the citations listed at ARRL, you will see the places that have been busted lately ARE in the business of retail sales. (The lates "ham" to be busted was listed asa business, and was previously warned about selling "illegal" radios.)

"The FCC has affirmed a $14,000 fine it proposed in November in the case of a California radio amateur. The Commission alleges that Jason Kaltenbach, KE6CND, doing business as Metamerchant..."

Other recent actions have been against other businesses.
But the rules allow some sales:

§97.315(b):

(4) The amplifier is sold by an Amateur to another Amateur or dealer.
(5) The amplifier is purchased in used condition from an Amateur by a dealer and subsequently sold to an Amateur...

Now there ARE limits and other restrictions. But the private sale is not the same as retail sales. And such things as the "dual band" radios COULD be purchased outside the U.S. (where it may be legal) and legally brought into the country by a private individual.

For better or worse, the FCC doesn't have the resources or personnel to prowl the web looking for individual sales; by the time they could gather sufficient evidence of an illegal sale, the auction would be over.And perhaps that's as it should be.
Instead of going after individuals selling questionable equipment that already exists, they are going after the people that are selling new equipment.

Nobody is advocating or approving of illegal use of "CB type" equipment.

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (wa9svd @ Mar. 04 2007,00:12)]If you read the citations listed at ARRL, you will see the places that have been busted lately ARE in the business of retail sales. #(The lates "ham" to be busted was listed asa business, and was previously warned about selling "illegal" radios.)

"The FCC has affirmed a $14,000 fine it proposed in November in the case of a California radio amateur. The Commission alleges that Jason Kaltenbach, KE6CND, doing business as Metamerchant..."

# #Other recent actions have been against other businesses.
# #But the rules allow some sales:

§97.315(b):

(4) The amplifier is sold by an Amateur to another Amateur or dealer.
(5) The amplifier is purchased in used condition from an Amateur by a dealer and subsequently sold to an Amateur...

Now there ARE limits and other restrictions. But the private sale #is not the same as retail sales. #And such things as the "dual band" radios COULD be purchased outside the U.S. (where it may be legal) and legally brought into the country by a private individual.

# #For better or worse, the FCC doesn't have the resources or personnel to prowl the web looking for individual sales; by the time they could gather sufficient evidence of an illegal sale, the auction would be over.And perhaps that's as it should be.
# #Instead of going after individuals selling questionable equipment that already exists, they are going after the people that are selling new equipment.

# #Nobody is advocating or approving of illegal use of "CB type" equipment.
1) The actions are all against individuals, not the business. There is still no legal difference (the way the citations are written) to allow a ham to sell another ham one of these radios.

2) We know there are exclusions for particular amplifiers. I haven't seen anything for the radios in question. While my complaint directly to the FCC was about a ham selling questionable amplifiers (grey zone), my original links were to the radios, not to amplifiers.

3) The radios are illegal for importation... that's why they're 'export' radios. You carrying it in your luggage on a flight from the Phillipines is 'importation'. I'm still not seeing a legal method of getting them in the country into your hands.

I'm not asking the FCC to go after every illegal radio for sale on eBay. I'm asking them to remind eBay that they have a responsibility to remove these illegal items for sale. They are doing a piss poor job of it so far, but the FCC claims (in their email to me) that they believe eBay is doing a "pretty good job". That's the part I have a problem with. 5% removal rate after report is not a "pretty good job", especially on items where you can look on a list, match the model number, and click delete.

The other area is, why haven't they gone after the people selling these radios to the individuals who sell them new on eBay? Do they not know who is selling them wholesale? If that's the case, then it's time to go after a few of the bigger sellers on eBay, find out who they buy from, then go after the distribution network. If they *do* know the distributors, why aren't they acting against them? Why have we seen action only against retail outlets?

That's the part I don't get...

[W8FAX]

A few years back when these little all band solid state amps started showing up on Ebay, a few hams around started trying to at least get Ebay to note that they WERE illegal. (For those of you who don't seem to really understand what "illegal" refers to when it comes to ham radio/cb radio, I suggest you find out before spouting rules.) I was even cusious to know how a little box the size of a large paper back book was supposed to put out 200 watts on such wide spectrum, and still fall w/in FCC guide lines. So, I bought one of these things just to test it and find out for myself. The company that was/is making this particular item was in Spain. They also sell 500, 750, and a 1kw version. They do NOT however sell direct on Ebay. The majority of the radios I saw, and still see today, are sold by individuals. However they DO sell a lot of them under different user names.Many of these names are all tied to a few American based companies. This can be found by doing some research. Most of these companies sell all sorts of imported crap, and not just radio stuff. Anyhow, upon rcving the amp, the first thing I did was open it up. The board and soldering all looked quality. We next hooked it up to a dummy load and a power meter. It seemed that the thing was good from about 19 Mhz up thru about 32 Mhz. When driven with a Cobra stock CB (about 2.5 watts carrier or so) it put out 35/50 watts RF on modulation peaks. I took it to another Ham's house who has all sorts of testing equipment that I did not have. He builds his own amps, designs RF stuff for the U.S. Gov, and is an engineer. We hooked the thing up and found that yes, it transmitted where it was supposed to, but also many other places besides. It had very strong harmonics down to 3 Mhz, and as high as 100 Mhz. When driven with over 7 watts, the thing went into dirt mode, started distorting, flat topping the signal, and random spurious output was everywhere. It was being sold as a ham amp, but was obviously NOT intended as a ham amp. Why would a ham take a rig, reduce the output to 5 watts so he could redrive it to 35? Well I also found out that many of these amps are used as "drivers"to push power into yet another amp. We did manage to get this guy that was selling these shut off for awhile, but after a few months he was back with the statement that he would only sell to persons with a "call sign". Didn't say what kind. The auction sites are now full of this crappola, and it must be selling well, or it wouldn't be on the web so much. If someone down the street opens up with some of this junk and starts getting into TV, radio, emergency com, etc, they probably WON'T be the first to hear about it. The guy with the tower in his back yard, the vertical on the roof, wires in the trees, ham call on his car, etc IS going to be the first guy investigated. In this case you ARE guilty until proven innocent, and in some cases it takes a LOT of proving to unknowing folks that you ARE innocent. I think it's such an overwhelming problem now because it appears, as noted here, that most folks just don't care. Statements like, "what harm does it cause?" prove this. It's O.K. to break the law, as long as it doesn't involve ME. More HAMS should report this junk to Ebay, EVERYTIME they see it. By numbers alone can this be changed. Stuff DOES get pulled, but a small percentage that I know of. Hams can sell pretty much ANYTHING to ther hams. We ARE experimenters. But we must experiment and keep our RF output within the guidelines set forth by the FCC at this point. While CBers are often a highly experimental group, they are NOT operating legally in any way if they are not w/in the guidelines for unlicensed operation...........

[WA9SVD]

Just a few comments:

ANY amp driven beyond it's required power goes into "dirt mode." It doesn't matter if it's the highest quality Amateur Amp that requires 75 watts and driven at 100 or 150 Watts, OR a cheap CB type amp driven with more than 5 watts or whatever the CB limit is.

Secondly, an amp that is overdriven with 27 MHz (+/-) from a CB radio does NOT produce "harmonics down to 3 MHz..."
That is impossible; a harmonic is a MULTIPLE of the fundamental frequency, so would have to be 54 MHz, 81 MHz, etc.
If you meant "spurious emissions,", that is a different issue. And again, ANY amp that is overdriven is likely to have spurious emissions, regardless of the quality or "pedigree" (Amateur vs "CB") of it's design. And such a signal produced by an over-driven amp is a violation of FCC standards, whether it's produced by a certified Amateur amp or a "CB" amp.

There ARE legitimate uses and needs in the Amateur world for amps that accept low power input. There are several (both old and current models) Amateur radios that produce output in the 5-10 Watt range. Unless one resorts to homebrew, a (licensed Amateur) owner of such a radio is stuck at the low power level, there is NO legal way to purchase an amp that will directly allow such a radio to step up to the 100 Watt or higher power level. (One reason for newbies to NOT buy such a radio as their "first HF rig." A 100 Watt radio can almost always be turned down to 5-10 Watts, but a 5-10 Watt radio will always be a 5-10 Watt radio.)

(And IMHO, it has NEVER made sense to have to run a 100 Watt transceiver near full power to drive an amp to the KW or legal limit level, when the radio COULD loaf along at the 5-10 Watt level if sufficient gain were built into the "amp." An amp using, e.g. a 4CX250 or two would make a potent amp, with a Kw. input, maybe 6-700 Watts out, but only require a couple of watts drive, such as from a QRP rig. Prior to April 1978, such designs were legal, and offered in QST as construction projects, and advertised as commercially built amps elsewhere. And amps purchased before 4-28-78 are exempt from the certification requirements and may be freely sold, etc. Collins and HeathKit and a few other brands of equipment come to mind...)

I agree that the "CB-type" amps are usually pieces of garbage. And have limited frequency range, usually centered on the CB frequencies. (Proper filtering for multiple bands requires band switching, either manual or automatic, something sorely lacking in the "CB" amps.)

But we are trying to force our FCC's rules on the world. An amp manufactured and marketed in Spain must conform to the rules of THAT country. If a dealer wishes to import that piece of equipment for sale in the U.S., then it must be certified.
But to the best of my knowledge, a private sale or order from a foreign manufacturer of a single unit does not fall under the certification requirement.
So yes, the rules DO need to be quoted. The people that are selling such equipment under multiple user names at auction are clearly in violation of the FCC rules. The rules ARE quite specific as to what is and what isn't allowed. But they ARE specific to state what equipment does NOT need to be certified.

[KB2SFH]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Feb. 27 2007,21:14)]So much for our FCC giving a crap...
And you are just figuring this out now?
FCC is all about MONEY and selling us out for it http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[W8FAX]

I meant spurious emmisions AND harmonics. Sorry, but thanks for taking the time to point that out. It has been common practice for a long time amongst cb'ers to "cascade" rigs to obtain enuff drive to accomodate the next amp. Hams have no need to do this, but if you check around to the various high power CB advocates web sites, you will find it IS common practice. In any case, a crap amp that is touted as 200 watts, but will only deliver 30 is obviously junk. If driven higher to produce MORE output, it really goes off the scale. I doubt that many hams need a boost to 35 watts on the ten meter band these days.

[ai4ep]

....Dern, wonder what n8yx sez about me ?

((sigh, maybe I dont want to know #!! )) #

#Well, one thing for sure, as often as he comes to this site, I wont have long to wait...not like some folks who come here, start a thread, and dont return for 2 weeks.

I really hate it when folks do that kind of stuff.

IMHO ... we all know what the rules and regulations ARE about 10 meter / 11 meter stuff. #that part we understand.

The " grey line " is when folks we do not like try to abuse the system with their antics...and #( dont play dumb ) we know what antics they try ( and for the moment, succeed at ).

IF ( mighty big word ) we had FCC agents in every county courthouse in the nation ( like a sheriff dept / police station ), the folks breaking / bending the rules would dramatically stop in 2 weeks or less. #YOU KNOW IT, I KNOW IT, the FCC just cant enforce its own rules with the skeleton crew they have ( what is it, average 4 agents per USA state , if that high ? ), and the different radio services they have to mess with BESIDES cb and amateur.............they have enough to do.

Plus, every complaint is more important than the 30 others they have already recieved for THAT ONE DAY, much less the ones from last week / month they aint got to checking out yet.

THEY SHOULD BE CONGRADULATED FOR THE OUTSTANDING JOB THEY ARE DOING #!!

...but back to the topic of this thread...if all you folks would just go by the rules, and quit trying to squeak a violation by...we would all look better in the eyes of the FCC ( and each other ) .

Now cb operators, well, they are a class in theirselves...95% of them go by the rules and regulations about frequency / power output / cursing / etc...it is the lousy 5% that intentionally break the rules that make the other 95% look real, real bad.

Plus a lot of folks dont buy the " export rigs " to intentionally talk on the "freeband ", they are using the legal 40 channels, and the reason they got the " export rigs " is --- price, availability , friend has one , etc. Back when I messed with cb ( quite some time back ) most of the locals had EXPORT rigs, but didnt use the other channels ( no need to, most local conversations were on the regular 40, with plenty of quiet channels to choose from...legal ones )...but they got what they thought was a bargain ( which we are ALL looking for ) and got what is an " export rig " and only talk on 2 - 3 regular channels ( legal ones ) . #They just want to talk with their friends 2 - 5 miles away, maybe talk late at night to some one 3 counties over, or maybe shoot some skip once in a while ( for the fun of it ), then hush.
They would talk to California, New York, etc...wherever the skip was from that day to a few folks and then hush...they didnt sit there for hours on end ( like some amateurs do ) and talk away till after the sun set..they did their " 10 minutes of fame " and then hushed.

We here on qrz tend to catergorize folks into groups...and it aint all good either....we have put all CB operators in one bag . We have put the NCT all in one bag, #we have put all the O F in one bag....and we got from bag to bag, kicking it with our foot to see what kind of stink we can stir up, then dash off to the side and act innocent. #Yep, some of YOU reading this post are as guilty as I am ( if not more so ), so just be an adult and admit it...you are a human being ( me too ) #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Now, back to business...I have wasted enough of your precious time with my ramblings...yes, this IS the short version ( hee hee hee ) # # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

...only cause I couldnt find a nascar race to watch on tv....

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (W8FAX @ Mar. 04 2007,14:44)]I meant spurious emmisions AND harmonics. Sorry, but thanks for taking the time to point that out. It has been common practice for a long time amongst cb'ers to "cascade" rigs to obtain enuff drive to accomodate the next amp. Hams have no need to do this, but if you check around to the various high power CB advocates web sites, you will find it IS common practice. In any case, a crap amp that is touted as 200 watts, but will only deliver 30 is obviously junk. If driven higher to produce MORE output, it really goes off the scale. I doubt that many hams need a boost to 35 watts on the ten meter band these days.
Sorry, but I respectfully disagree. It IS a waste to have to "cascade" amps to achieve high(er) power. But what choice does the licensed Amateur with a QRP/low power (5-10 Watts) rig have? To use any of the commercial Amps, he HAS to resort to homebrew, and he HAS to cascade. there's currently no legal way to buy an amp that will take a QRP or other low power rig to high power, or even medium (100-300 Watts.) power. NADA. And while I'm a proponent of using the least amount of power possible, or at least the least amount necessary, I also feel it's every ham's right to run QRO if they so choose, as long as they don't cause interference to others, and it's actually necessary to make a contact.

Whether or not illegal CB operators use the "cascade" technique is really immaterial. I personally don't wish to waste my time perusing the CB sites to find out, or for any other reason.

And I fully agree that most of the equipment "marketed (black marketed?)" to CB'ers is of poor quality and VASTLY overrated. Certainly, false claims probably abound. (And that "200 Watt" amp with 20 AWG wire leads isn't going to run 200 Watts except in a CBer's dream.)
WE know (or should know) that such amps and other equipment sold to CBer's is not what it's represented to be.

[ai4ep]

...so...in simple terms, the CB operators are getting " shafted " in many ways ---

1) most have lousy antenna systems in their vehicles ( mounted on mirror mounts , or lossy magnet mounts ) with little or no ground plane / grounding system available.

2) the amplifiers arent made to transmit a clean signal at ANY output, are vastly overpriced for what they DO actually transmit, with false advertising about the output the amplifier DOES transmit...plus the legality issue of the FCC.

Then these folks just " HAVE " to get the basic radio modified for " super modulation " and "swing ". which strains ( over time ) the basic transmitter, and shortens its life expectancy.

So regardless of the radio / amplifier, they have a lousy antenna system, which CAN shorten the life of any radio...the radio has been peaked and tuned #and is being strained with every punch of the PTT switch, then throw in an amplifier that does not / can not transmit a clean signal even under the best conditions ( antenna / radio )...and you have the potential to make a lot of money from folks who just really want to talk a few ( 15 or less ) miles.

So, even if a dude runs a basic legal cb radio in an 18 wheeler, he is already shafted by the choices of antenna systems...and then the other stuff mentioned earlier just compound the problem and make it worse.

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Mar. 04 2007,16:30)]...so...in simple terms, the CB operators are getting " shafted " in many ways ---

1) most have lousy antenna systems in their vehicles ( mounted on mirror mounts , or lossy magnet mounts ) with little or no ground plane / grounding system available.

2) the amplifiers arent made to transmit a clean signal at ANY output, are vastly overpriced for what they DO actually transmit, with false advertising about the output the amplifier DOES transmit...plus the legality issue of the FCC.

Then these folks just " HAVE " to get the basic radio modified for " super modulation " and "swing ". which strains ( over time ) the basic transmitter, and shortens its life expectancy.

So regardless of the radio / amplifier, they have a lousy antenna system, which CAN shorten the life of any radio...the radio has been peaked and tuned and is being strained with every punch of the PTT switch, then throw in an amplifier that does not / can not transmit a clean signal even under the best conditions ( antenna / radio )...and you have the potential to make a lot of money from folks who just really want to talk a few ( 15 or less ) miles.

So, even if a dude runs a basic legal cb radio in an 18 wheeler, he is already shafted by the choices of antenna systems...and then the other stuff mentioned earlier just compound the problem and make it worse.
I don't necessarily think that's so.

1. There ARE decent quality, LEGAL CB radios on the market. used as intended, that's not a problem.

2. The antenna is user's choice; there ARE "NMO" antennas available for CB; that type mount will give better performance than most Amateur antenna mounts. Many Amateurs are using "mag mounts" and mirror mounts, but they don't feel "shafted." It's their choice as to antenna mount. If they don't want to drill a hole to use a decent mount, such as a rooftop mount, they accept compromised performance.

3. The quality of amplifiers for CB is immaterial,; the fact is that they are illegal. Whether they are "dirty" or purer than the driven snow and meet NTIA standards, they are still illegal to use. And to be perfectly honest, WHY would a company bother to design and built a really clean amp for CB and rate it honestly? The manufacturers, at least, KNOW full well it's illegal to sell, at least in the U.S.
What's a person to do? Take them to court, and sue because they produce a lousy amp that's illegal to use? Or even sue over misrepresentation over inflated power ratings? I doubt anyone would be that foolish...

4. The use of "super modulation," and "swing" (whatever those are) or other modifications are also user supplied, or user requested, and if they shorten the life of a radio, the user really has no one else to blame but themselves. Their radios should work fine with stock equipment, and no add-ons needed.

I will agree, though, that if someone pays good money for a "stock" CB radio, (and uses it legally and unmodified) they can and should get a good quality radio, at least of the quality of good Amateur equipment, with a similar life expectancy. Anything less, and yes, they ARE getting shafted.

[KC4RAN]

Glad eBay is shutting down all the guys like this one (http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfrtsZ0QQsassZclickQ2dandQ2dget) who sell tons of export radios.

I've reported every one of the export radios, and I know other people have (watched one of them do it). Any guess how many of the ads get pulled by eBay?

Anyway, as others have said it all comes down to whether or not you think amateur radio is impacted by the jerk running several hundred or several thousand dirty watts down the street, while you're running 100 clean non-TVI watts... and your neighbors blame *you* for all that squawk they hear on their radio speakers, their cordless phone, their computer speakers, their telephone line, their TV...

Might as well assign the lower part of 10 to the freebanders anyway.

[ai4ep]

part of the problem is --- the buyers and sellers just do NOT care. All they want is the almighty dollar.

Morals are at an all time low on this scenerio.

--------------------------
question time -----

as an example

cobra 25 cb rig...popular radio amongst cb operators...can the average listener tell a difference from a stock rig to a "swing / super modulation " rig of the same brand model ?

question #2 ---does it shorten the average life of the radio ?

[W5OTR]

Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Feb. 27 2007,19:23)]Stuff that I *think* might be illegal? Read the citation again. Or maybe I should say, read it for the first time before you come here squawking your ignorance.

There is a big list of radios that yes, Martha... are illegal for sale, even for advertisement for sale here in the U.S.

I know, I know... "But!! But!! I use this radio ever' day on 27MHz....er, I mean 28.325MHz an' it's FINE!"

I would ask if you cared about the fact that each time one of these piece of junk radios is sold, there's a good chance that we're losing another section of the lower part of 10 meters to truckers and freebanders.

But then I read your response again, and I realize that you're probably an owner of a similar radio. Hit a little close to a nerve there, eh? Got yer echo box, and some noise toys, Connex board, changed out the 'pills' so you can 'talk better'? Maybe a big ol 'leaner' in the slip seat?

I could care less what you think, because it's obvious where you stand. Those pesky "rules"...
I still can't understand why another truck driver has asked me to join them on the cw segment of 10 meters. I've driven through all 48 CS, and Canada--- but never have I heard this?? Maybe you are the one "squawking your ignorance"

And you wrote that "I(you) could care less."

That means that you DO care.

Truck drivers deliver freight from one place to another. Freebanders are persons that operate on freqs they are not licensed for. I know that this may seem like it is nearly the same, but it is actually very different.

[WA9SVD]

Quote[/b] (W5OTR @ Mar. 23 2007,06:02)][quote=KC4RAN,Feb. 27 2007,19:23]Stuff that I *think* might be illegal?

There is a big list of radios that yes, Martha... are illegal for sale, even for advertisement for sale here in the U.S.
Aye, therein lies the rub..."
Or the legal loophole.
Much of the equipment is sold as "EXPORT" models. (WE all know better, but it's a loophole.) The illegality is "advertising for SALE IN the U.S." Advertising for sale in an "EXPORT" market isn't illegal.
Those that chose to break the law and sell inappropriate equipment know how to use the loopholes.

Does anyone really think that if a U.S. Citizen orders an "export" radio, they won't receive the goods, no questions asked? In 99.44% of the time, I'm sure the sale is made. Same with "over the counter sales" at various "truck stops," Rat Shack stores or its web site, ePay, electronics shops, and the like. Even if the units are on the FCC's list as not certified, they are STILL sold.
Fortunately, slowly but surely the FCC is nailing those that are selling the non-certified radios and non-certified amps. It's just that they can't move fast enough to please any of us.

But I don't differentiate, and it insults honest people by labeling truck drivers, or anyone else as a group as "freebanders." Illegal operators (and THAT is what freebanders are) are truck drivers, soccer moms and dads, couch potatoes, ladies of the night, school children, just about anyone or anything you can think of.

[KC4RAN]

Quote[/b] (W5OTR @ Mar. 23 2007,06:02)]Quote[/b] (KC4RAN @ Feb. 27 2007,19:23)]Stuff that I *think* might be illegal? Read the citation again. Or maybe I should say, read it for the first time before you come here squawking your ignorance.

There is a big list of radios that yes, Martha... are illegal for sale, even for advertisement for sale here in the U.S.

I know, I know... "But!! But!! I use this radio ever' day on 27MHz....er, I mean 28.325MHz an' it's FINE!"

I would ask if you cared about the fact that each time one of these piece of junk radios is sold, there's a good chance that we're losing another section of the lower part of 10 meters to truckers and freebanders.

But then I read your response again, and I realize that you're probably an owner of a similar radio. Hit a little close to a nerve there, eh? Got yer echo box, and some noise toys, Connex board, changed out the 'pills' so you can 'talk better'? Maybe a big ol 'leaner' in the slip seat?

I could care less what you think, #because it's obvious where you stand. Those pesky "rules"...
I still can't understand why another truck driver has asked me to join them on the cw segment of 10 meters. #I've driven through all 48 CS, and Canada--- but never have I heard this?? #Maybe you are the one "squawking your ignorance" # # #

And you wrote that "I(you) could care less." #

That means that you DO care. #

Truck drivers deliver freight from one place to another. #Freebanders are persons that operate on freqs they are not licensed for. #I know that this may seem like it is nearly the same, but it is actually very different.
Here's a link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens'_band_radio) that might help a bit...

"[edit] Freebanding and Export Radios
Operation on frequencies above ("uppers") or below ("lowers") the established citizens band is referred to as "freebanding" or "outbanding".[13] Many perceive these frequencies just below the CB band, or between the CB band and the amateur radio 10-meter band to be quiet and under-utilized.

This is done with modified CB equipment, amateur radios modified to transmit on 11 meters, foreign CB radios that may offer different channels, or with radios which are purportedly sold for export.

Unlike amateur radios which are frequency-agile, export CB's are channelized. Frequency selection on these "export radios" resembles that of modified American CB's more than any foreign frequency plan. They typically have a knob and display that reads up to channel 40, but include an extra "band" selector that shifts all 40 channels above or below the band, plus a "+10 kHz" button to reach the model control 'A' channels. These radios may have 6 or even 12 bands, establishing a set of quasi-CB channels on all sorts of unauthorized frequencies. The bands are typically lettered 'A' through 'F', with the normal CB band as 'D'.

For example, a freebander with an export radio who wants to use 27.635 MHz would choose Channel 19 ( 27.185 ) and then shift the radio up one band ( + 0.450 ). The operator may have to do quite a bit of arithmetic to know which frequency he is actually operating on, though more expensive radios include a frequency counter.

Even well-meaning (but illegal) operations can end up on frequencies which are very much in use. For instance, Channel 19, 2 bands up, becomes 28.085 MHz, which is in a Morse code-only part of the 10-meter ham band. Licensed amateurs typically regard this activity as an intrusion, and have been known to record, locate, and report such transmissions."


And I say truck drivers because a large portion of the users of these radios are truckers. Where do you see them sold retail most often? Truck stops.

I'd venture a guess that there are more trucks with export radios than with FCC certified radios. So, yes truckers are going to get lumped in here. I'm sure there are many truckers who are law-abiding when it comes to radios... but many more who are not. If that offends the ones who are law-abiding, then they need to get the lawbreakers to stop.