It's a miracle!

[K6BBC]

If anybody believes this is possible, and not the biggest load of crap, please step forward and be heard.

Ted (http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/1251)

K6BBC

[wa8rti]

I saw the same thing in my local paper. #You're right-big load. #It will go over well those who want to believe that homosexuality is #learned, #or is a life style choice. There is too much anecdotal evidence from those who say that at puberty the realized that they were different. And scientific evidence as to brain structure differences between those who are hetrosexual and those who are homosexual.

[n8yx]

Cured...or merely 'counting the days' until his NEXT encounter?

[n2ize]

My internal probability analyzer says that it's a crock.

[kb2vxa]

I think the key word here is "Evangelical" as in "Pat Robertson" et al.

I'm reminded of Imus In The Morning on "w N bc, the WHITE station" with Brother Billy Joe Hargus of the Church of the Gooey Death shouting "Put your hand on the radio, I say PUT YOUR HAND ON THE RADIO! Do you FEEL the power? Do you feel the POWER?!" and I was thinking "Put your hand on the radio. Put your other hand on the water pipe. Do you feel the POWER?! Folks, send your contributions to the Church of Con Edison in the envelope provided."

[n4sva]

Quote[/b] (wa8rti @ Feb. 07 2007,10:59)]I saw the same thing in my local paper. #You're right-big load. #It will go over well those who want to believe that homosexuality is #learned, #or is a life style choice. There is too much anecdotal evidence from those who say that at puberty the realized that they were different. And scientific evidence as to brain structure differences between those who are hetrosexual and those who are homosexual.
Actually it is learned behavior, promulgated by the home environment.

The alleged brain structure differences are brought on by these external environmental factors. Such as a weak parent, etc.

[W8EFA]

Quote[/b] (n4sva @ Feb. 07 2007,14:43)]Quote[/b] (wa8rti @ Feb. 07 2007,10:59)]I saw the same thing in my local paper. #You're right-big load. #It will go over well those who want to believe that homosexuality is #learned, #or is a life style choice. There is too much anecdotal evidence from those who say that at puberty the realized that they were different. And scientific evidence as to brain structure differences between those who are hetrosexual and those who are homosexual.
Actually it is learned behavior, promulgated by the home environment.

The alleged brain structure differences are brought on by these external environmental factors. Such as a weak parent, etc.
Actually I think you are making #up what you want to believe. #New consensus Scientific evidence says you are wrong.

[n4sva]

Actually, The American Psychiatric Association reports "There are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology [cause or origin] for homosexuality."

Wonder if you have an "ulterior motive" to say that people are born that way?

[K6UEY]

When I first read the topic title I thought maybe it addressed Ted Kennedy's drinking, now that would be a real MIRACLE !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[n4sva]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Feb. 07 2007,13:33)]When I first read the topic title I thought maybe it addressed Ted Kennedy's drinking, now that would be a real MIRACLE !! # #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Haha. Any Kennedy obtaining any morals would cause ice cubes to form in Hell.

[K6BBC]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Feb. 07 2007,13:33)]When I first read the topic title I thought maybe it addressed Ted Kennedy's drinking, now that would be a real MIRACLE !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
I's rather have a drink with Ted K than -- well -- forget it.

bbc

[K6UEY]

K6BBC,
I have serious doubts that Ted Kennedy has ever in his life had "A" Drink !!!

(One at "A" time doesn't count) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[W1GUH]

Rent Boy put it rather pithily....

(Quote from memory)

Quote[/b] ]You're gay or straight by default. #It's who turns you on at the time.

Quote[/b] ]A thousand years from there'll be no men, no women, just wankers

[n4sva]

Quote[/b] (W1GUH @ Feb. 07 2007,14:07)]Rent Boy put it rather pithily....

(Quote from memory)

Quote[/b] ]You're gay or straight by default. #It's who turns you on at the time.

Quote[/b] ]A thousand years from there'll be no men, no women, just wankers
you had contact with a Rent Boy?? hmmmmm.

[W1GUH]

Quote[/b] (n4sva @ Feb. 06 2007,17:16)]Quote[/b] (W1GUH @ Feb. 07 2007,14:07)]Rent Boy put it rather pithily....

(Quote from memory)

Quote[/b] ]You're gay or straight by default. It's who turns you on at the time.

Quote[/b] ]A thousand years from there'll be no men, no women, just wankers
you had contact with a Rent Boy?? hmmmmm.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[ka5piu]

Hello.

It just depends on who you ask.
I have had the homosexuals say that they were born that way, there is no changing.
But, the same homosexuals say that one can convert.
So, what is it?
Now, we have TV boy getting the short end of the stick, but, who has the stick, and where are they putting it?
I see it as all as just a scam, to make money and gain power.

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Feb. 07 2007,12:01)]Quote[/b] (n4sva @ Feb. 07 2007,14:43)]Quote[/b] (wa8rti @ Feb. 07 2007,10:59)]I saw the same thing in my local paper. #You're right-big load. #It will go over well those who want to believe that homosexuality is #learned, #or is a life style choice. There is too much anecdotal evidence from those who say that at puberty the realized that they were different. And scientific evidence as to brain structure differences between those who are hetrosexual and those who are homosexual.
Actually it is learned behavior, promulgated by the home environment.

The alleged brain structure differences are brought on by these external environmental factors. Such as a weak parent, etc.
Actually I think you are making #up what you want to believe. #New consensus Scientific evidence says you are wrong.
Gee Bill, I had no idea that genetic research discovered a "gay gene". It must of been a pretty recent discovery. I sure would like to see the published paper on this. It would be interesting reading. Got a link to the JAMA or something with simular creditability?

A "Gay Gene", wow! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kf4vgx]

You people are killing me http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif .

But it's not a bad way to go http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

[wa4brl]

Cured? Yeah, right.

'Bout as much chance as Jimmy Swaggart being forgiven.

[W8EFA]

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Feb. 07 2007,23:21)]Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Feb. 07 2007,12:01)]Quote[/b] (n4sva @ Feb. 07 2007,14:43)]Quote[/b] (wa8rti @ Feb. 07 2007,10:59)]I saw the same thing in my local paper. #You're right-big load. #It will go over well those who want to believe that homosexuality is #learned, #or is a life style choice. There is too much anecdotal evidence from those who say that at puberty the realized that they were different. And scientific evidence as to brain structure differences between those who are hetrosexual and those who are homosexual.
Actually it is learned behavior, promulgated by the home environment.

The alleged brain structure differences are brought on by these external environmental factors. Such as a weak parent, etc.
Actually I think you are making #up what you want to believe. #New consensus Scientific evidence says you are wrong.
Gee Bill, I had no idea that genetic research discovered a "gay gene". It must of been a pretty recent discovery. I sure would like to see the published paper on this. It would be interesting reading. Got a link to the JAMA or something with simular creditability?

A "Gay Gene", wow! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Well there has been quite a lot of studies and new research lately with scientists increased ability of deciphering the genome structure.
Is the WEBMD site mainstream enough for you?

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/100/105486.htm

[W8EFA]

Quote[/b] (n4sva @ Feb. 07 2007,16:31)]Actually, The American Psychiatric Association reports "There are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology [cause or origin] for homosexuality."

Wonder if you have an "ulterior motive" to say that people are born that way?
Care to provide a link there?

As far as the not very well disguised accusation, no ulterior motives, I have been married for 27years. You certainly promote Alabama stereotypes.

[kf4vgx]

Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ Feb. 06 2007,17:40)]Hello.

It just depends on who you ask.
I have #" HEARD" # the homosexuals say that they were born that way, there is no changing.
But, the same homosexuals say that one can convert.
So, what is it?
Now, we have TV boy getting the short end of the stick, but, who has the stick, and where are they putting it?
I see it as all as just a scam, to make money and gain power.

Good Bye !
I hope you can see the pun here, http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

Quote ,

I have #" HEARD" # the homosexuals say that they were born that way, there is no changing.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .

I " HAD "to say it http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

[ka5piu]

Hello.

No, it is not gay gene, it is gay jeans. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

And, if somebody is going to quote, it would be nice if it were at least somewhat close, yes?

[kf6rdn]

Quote all you want, cite all you want, I know too many people that got the crap beat out of them for their "choice".
Not to mention brothers, one flaming one hetero. Raised the same way. Environment? Horse Bollocks.

[kf4vgx]

Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ Feb. 06 2007,22:07)]Hello.

No, it is not gay gene, it is gay jeans. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

And, if somebody is going to quote, it would be nice if it were at least somewhat close, yes?
ERR , " NO " http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif


http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

[kf4vgx]

Quote[/b] (kf6rdn @ Feb. 06 2007,22:09)]Quote all you want, cite all you want, I know too many people that got the crap beat out of them for their "choice".
Not to mention brothers, one flaming one hetero. #Raised the same way. #Environment? #Horse Bollocks.
Well ,thats a deep subject
I'm out of it http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

But if you are ,you " DA " man.

Or visa versa.

No offence intended.

[KI4PEQ]

Homosexuality is found throughout the animal kingdom. Somehow I don't think that they make a "lifestyle choice".

Arguments for man having free will aside, why should man be any different than the rest of the animal kingdom>

[W1GUH]

Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ Feb. 06 2007,22:44)]Homosexuality is found throughout the animal kingdom. Somehow I don't think that they make a "lifestyle choice".

Arguments for man having free will aside, why should man be any different than the rest of the animal kingdom>
Why indeed. That question's been asked for thousands of years.

[K8MHZ]

Quote[/b] (W1GUH @ Feb. 07 2007,16:56)]Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ Feb. 06 2007,22:44)]Homosexuality is found throughout the animal kingdom. Somehow I don't think that they make a "lifestyle choice".

Arguments for man having free will aside, why should man be any different than the rest of the animal kingdom>
Why indeed. #That question's been asked for thousands of years.
Cuz we have radios. #That makes us superior to those in the animal kingdom that don't.

Me thinks it's obvious.

Personally, I really don't care who my friends have sex with. #I also really really don't care who people I don't even know have sex with. #That is, so long in both cases, they aren't having sex with anyone in my immediate family. #Outside that issue, the rest is more information than I need to continue through life.

[n4sva]

Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ Feb. 07 2007,21:44)]Homosexuality is found throughout the animal kingdom. Somehow I don't think that they make a "lifestyle choice".

Arguments for man having free will aside, why should man be any different than the rest of the animal kingdom>
Utter BS. You see bi-sexuality in the animal kingdom in some cases, but not homosexuality.

Some animals eat their offspring too, but you don't see us doing that, do you?

[n4sva]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Feb. 07 2007,20:37)]Quote[/b] (n4sva @ Feb. 07 2007,16:31)]Actually, The American Psychiatric Association reports "There are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology [cause or origin] for homosexuality."

Wonder if you have an "ulterior motive" to say that people are born that way?
Care to provide a link there? #

As far as the not very well disguised accusation, no ulterior motives, I have been married for 27years. #You certainly promote #Alabama stereotypes.
He you go:

Link (http://fathersforlife.org/gay_issues/gay_gene.htm)

I didn't know that being straight was an Alabama stereotype. Does that mean that all people living in Ohio are gay?

[w5klb]

Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Feb. 07 2007,20:33)]Well there has been quite a lot of studies and new research lately with scientists increased ability of deciphering the genome structure. #
Is the WEBMD site mainstream enough for you?

http://www.webmd.com/content/article/100/105486.htm
Sorry to dissappoint you, Bill, but the basis of WebMD's article was based on the "Hamer Study" and chromosome Xq28 which has been denounced by the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of the scientific community. The link quoted comes from a website assigned as an undergraduate assignment from Davidson College in North Carolina, but it quotes the facts:

Quote[/b] ]Problems Arise and Confusion Remains:

The year 1995 marked beginning of the end of optimism for chromosome Xq28 as an indicator of male homosexuality. In this year Scientific American printed an article that mentioned the doubts in the scientific community over the genetics of homosexuality. LeVay’s findings, the article reports, “have yet to be fully replicated by another researcher” (Horgan, 1995). Also, one study contradicted Hamer’s results and Scientific American reported that he had “been charged with research improprieties and is now under investigation by the Federal Office of Research Integrity,” which was basically a result of his excluding “pairs of brothers whose genetic makeup contradicted his finding” (Horgan, 1995).This news report came in the November edition of the magazine, which was essentially presenting a retraction for the article the two scientists coauthored in 1994. Unfortunately for these two researchers, more bad news was to follow.

Science also reported that the study by Hamer was being questioned. A study by George Ebers and George Rice in 1995 indicated that “there is no reason to focus linkage studies on the X chromosome” and that there is “no evidence that gayness is passed from mother to son” (Marshall, 1995). Although these researchers agreed with the possibility that homosexuality is inherited, they found no clear evidence to justify Hamer’s claims.

Finally, in 1999, George Rice and George Ebers published their data. In the April edition of Science, the scientists show that their results, “do not support an X-linked gene underlying male homosexuality” (Rice et al., 1999 and Wickelgren, 1999). They found that the gay brothers looked at by the Hamer group were no more likely to share the Xq28 markers than would be expected by chance. This officially sounded the death-knell for the optimism held by Hamer et al. and others looking in this region for the gene leading to homosexuality.

When the 1993 Science article was written, a precursory “Research News” article was written by Robert Pool in the same magazine to report the findings of the Hamer group. In this article, Pool writes, “The field of behavioral genetics is littered with apparent discoveries that were later called into question or retracted” (Pool, 1993). A statement could not be more prophetic.

bold added for emphases

The "No Gay Gene" link-o-matic (http://www.bio.davidson.edu/Courses/genomics/2002/Pierce/gaygene.htm)

Moral of story:The Gay lifestyle is a choice, so says the vast majority of scientist who has discredited the Hamer Study. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[K6BBC]

Quote[/b] (n4sva @ Feb. 08 2007,08:16)]Quote[/b] (W8EFA @ Feb. 07 2007,20:37)]Quote[/b] (n4sva @ Feb. 07 2007,16:31)]Actually, The American Psychiatric Association reports "There are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology [cause or origin] for homosexuality."

Wonder if you have an "ulterior motive" to say that people are born that way?
Care to provide a link there?

As far as the not very well disguised accusation, no ulterior motives, I have been married for 27years. You certainly promote Alabama stereotypes.
He you go:

Link (http://fathersforlife.org/gay_issues/gay_gene.htm)

I didn't know that being straight was an Alabama stereotype. Does that mean that all people living in Ohio are gay?
Why do you hate gay people?

bbc

[KI4PEQ]

Quote[/b] (n4sva @ Feb. 08 2007,09:16)]I didn't know that being straight was an Alabama stereotype. Does that mean that all people living in Ohio are gay?
We COULD ask Jerry if he was not banished.

BTW Jerry, since you may be lurking here, and I realize that you are up to your armpits in snow, but I DID win our wager on the Ohio State / Florida game. I'm still waiting on the settlement...how did you send it, by twenty mule team?

[n6hcm]

Quote[/b] (w5klb @ Feb. 08 2007,10:02)]Moral of story:The Gay lifestyle is a choice, so says the vast majority of scientist who has discredited the Hamer Study. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
the moral you've decided on ("The Gay lifestyle is a choice") does not follow from what you've quoted. indeed, the conclusion of the undergraduate paper you've identified says exactly this:

Quote[/b] ]Obviously, the genetics of homosexuality isn’t as simple as some in the media and elsewhere thought it would be. To be sure, little progress has been made after the initial findings provided such optimism. An interesting point can be made about the relationship between science and the media due to this study. The media, it seems, showered its skepticism on the interpretation of the scientific results while science, even with questionable practices among some of its own, corrected itself by placing the skepticism on the results themselves. Because the scientific process is necessarily reproducible, unsubstantiated claims fall by the wayside while those that can be corroborated stand the test of time.

what is true, at least in my experience: the choice that is available is not to whom you are attracted, but instead whether you act on that attraction and whether you decide you need to hide that attraction to others.

i've found there's no good reason to not act on that attraction, and (similarly) there's no good reason to hide that attraction.

the paper quoted is hardly a comprehensive examination of the literature--it's a brief summary proposing that the hamer study is unproven. even if hamer turns out to be wrong, there's nothing here to suggest there isn't a "gay gene" ...

[W1GUH]

Before I say anything at all about this...I'll say this...

Personally, I could give a crap less about what anyone does in private. That's your business..and it's none of anyone else's business

And..

We all learn in puberty the pleasure that certain parts of our bodies can provide.

OK?

Y'know? I'll leave it at that for now, and let that sink in. I've got comments about this subject, but that's enough for now.

OK?

Paul

[W1GUH]

Now...a day later...it seems that that's all there is to say about it.

[wa8rti]

Note that the link that disputes the 'gay gene' is from Davidson College and was produced as an undergraduate assignment. I believe that Davidson is a conservative, southern, Christian school. I would expect that their students would produce work that would support the theory that being gay is a sin, is learned and is a choice. #Their instructors are not likely to accept any other conclusion. #It is hard to believe #that their results are free of #a conservative Christian bias.