View Full Version : Legal callsign identification
ok, I have the read the regulations but as usual there is room for interpretation and I am trying to make sure I understand exactly what the minimum legal identification requirements are. I tried to find a reference (an FCC 'position paper' or something similar) that I once read that tries to clarify this. I bring it up again as I want to know for sure and it will also be good for everyone to be reminded of what is the legal minimum.
As I have been able to determine so far, We are required to identify ourselves:
1. at least every ten minutes
#Does this really mean I can be in a qso for 9 minutes # 59 seconds before having given my call even once?
2. at the end of the qso even if it is not ten minutes
3. MUST be done with call LETTERS, not by using phonetics!
# Does this mean it is ILLEGAL to sign off with "kilo delta 3 victor" ??
I believe I read that the use of phonetics is advised "when needed for claification" but is not to be the only way a callsign is given. Signing off with letters is the legal requirement in my understanding.
4. anything else I missed?
I am asking for clarification and additional information.
I believe #3 to be accurate but it is the one that is open to question the most in my mind.
KDa3Ve
KB1GYQ
07-25-2002, 01:27 AM
Go back and read 97.119b ...
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> (b) The call sign must be transmitted with an emission authorized for the transmitting channel in one of the following ways:
(1) By a CW emission. When keyed by an automatic device used only for identification, the speed must not exceed 20 words per minute;
(2) By a phone emission in the English language. Use of a standard phonetic alphabet as an aid for correct station identification is encouraged;
(3) By a RTTY emission using a specified digital code when all or part of the communications are transmitted by a RTTY or data emission;
(4) By an image emission conforming to the applicable transmission standards, either color or monochrome, of §73.682(a) of the FCC Rules when all or part of the communications are transmitted in the same image emission.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
KD7LDH
07-25-2002, 02:06 AM
Yes you can qso for 9 minutes and 59 seconds and not give out your callsign. HOWEVER AT TEN MINUTES AND AT THE END OF THE QSO YOU MUST IDENTIFY. And if the QSO is longer than 10 minutes identify every ten minutes and at the end of the end of the conversation.
KC2JCA
07-25-2002, 02:25 AM
"Standard Phonetic Alphabet..."
Gee, you mean all those guys using those cute sayings are not legal?
Imagine that.
Wannabe CBers. 10-4?
--
Jim
Yes guys, I DID read those very regs... but the regs say "... as an aid...", if we are on a repeater then 99.9% of the time there is no need to use them as an aid.
I believe the FCC paper I read some time ago, stated that the valid ID is the LETTERS and the use of phonetics is an AID, and is NOT to be the only form of ID.
They stated that using ONLY phonetics was NOT legal as it is not your callsign.
The phonetics are an AID not the ONLY METHOD that is to be used. #
Read the regs carefully!
If anyone has seen the FCC comment on these regs I would love to see it again.
has 97.119(b)(2) been changed recently.....my edition updated to april 2000 does not contain the word STANDARD phonetic alphabet....
it says....BY A PHONE EMISSION IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE. #USE OF A PHONETIC ALPHABET AS AN AID FOR CORRECT STATION IDENTIFICATION IS ENCOURAGED....
DAN, K3XR
N0KLT
07-25-2002, 03:37 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K3XR @ July 24 2002,22:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">has 97.119(b)(2) been changed recently.....my edition updated to april 2000 does not contain the word STANDARD phonetic alphabet....
it says....BY A PHONE EMISSION IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE. #USE OF A PHONETIC ALPHABET AS AN AID FOR CORRECT STATION IDENTIFICATION IS ENCOURAGED....
DAN, K3XR[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
The version of the rule book I have uses the words 'standard phonetic alphabet as an aid'
The version I have is the ARRL's FCC Rule Book, 12 Edtion. It has a copyright date of 2000. I am not sure if another version is out yet or not. I picked this up about a year ago, direct from the ARRL.
73
Gary - N0KLT
thanks gary,n0klt...my book is the 15th revised edition published by the w5yi group inc....i just went to the fcc web site which links you to the gpo (government printing office, i guess) #and the word STANDARD is not contained in 97.119(b)(2)
dan,k3xr
n0xas
07-25-2002, 05:29 AM
Guys... #hams have been IDing with phonetics since shortly after the Earth's crust cooled enough to get a ground rod driven in. #So far I'm not aware of anyone being tossed in the pen or tarred and feathered for IDing with phonetics and not adding the completely unnecessary non-phonetic version of their call sign. #If I ID as "November Zero X-Ray Alpha Sierra", anyone with ears knows what my call sign is. Isn't this whole discussion just what we autocrossers used to call "rules-lawyering"?
The intent of the regulation section in question is clearly and obviously to ensure that amateur operators ID at least once every ten minutes, at least at the end of a QSO, and in a form easily understood. #If you really, really can't figure that out, why not call the FCC and ask them? #Better yet, why not look at standard amateur practice in use since dirt was new, not bother the FCC and let it go at that? #If you really feel strongly about it, please feel free to ID both ways, or just choose a mode where the burden of the decision isn't so great -- like CW or RTTY.
Sheesh. #
73,
Dale
N7CPC
07-25-2002, 07:12 AM
............yankee, alpha, whiskey, november...........
It is, as with any regulation, possible to violate the letter of the law but not the spirit. Read and interperet this reg any way you like as long as you keep in mind the times at which you MUST ID.
As to being in a QSO for nine minutes and fifty nine seconds and not identifing, well you just did as I am sure you observed the end of QSO ID regulation. Guess you answered your own question there.
73
KA7RRA
07-25-2002, 08:51 AM
Go www.ARRL.ORG and ask the ARRL they got the answer for everything
Dave...
W5ATX
07-25-2002, 08:59 AM
Yes, you can QSO for 9.59 before you ID. Yes you must ID every 10 minutes AND at the end of the QSO. And yes, you may use phonetics. I didn't realise the word "standard" had been removed from 97.119 either. If that's gone, then it's gone. But to ID with some silly sounding phonetics is ok, but confusing. Stick to the basics - it makes it easier for everyone. But hey, it's your license, do what you want.
KB1GYQ
07-25-2002, 03:14 PM
Just learn to send your ID at 200wpm in CW.... there is no speed limit for hand sent, only for automatic!
K9STH
07-25-2002, 03:27 PM
Some amateurs believe that you do not have to give your call sign at the beginning of a series of transmissions, only at 10 minute intervals and at the end of the QSO. However, even though the FCC regulations do not apprarently indicate that your call sign is given at the beginning, you must still give them at the very beginning of the QSO. The FCC requires that no unidentified transmissions can be made. Thus, if you do NOT identify at the beginning of your 10 minute series, then you are indeed transmitting unidentified for that time period. This, is definitely illegal.
Somehow, the requirement that "spelled out" the need for identification at the beginning was eliminated. However, the situation is still "taken care of" by the "no unidentified transmissions" section.
Glen, K9STH
KB1GYQ
07-25-2002, 03:40 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (N0KLT @ July 24 2002,23:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K3XR @ July 24 2002,22:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">has 97.119(b)(2) been changed recently.....my edition updated to april 2000 does not contain the word STANDARD phonetic alphabet....
it says....BY A PHONE EMISSION IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE. #USE OF A PHONETIC ALPHABET AS AN AID FOR CORRECT STATION IDENTIFICATION IS ENCOURAGED....
DAN, K3XR[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
The version of the rule book I have uses the words 'standard phonetic alphabet as an aid'
The version I have is the ARRL's FCC Rule Book, 12 Edtion. It has a copyright date of 2000. I am not sure if another version is out yet or not. I picked this up about a year ago, direct from the ARRL.
73
Gary - N0KLT[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Fun is! The 2001 version at the GPO does omit "standard"... The ARRL's site is OUT OF DATE! (ask if I'm surprized)
Kindly Bacchus One Gigantic Yearning Quenched. out http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Once we fix THIS problem, let's try to get DX stations running a pileup to identify every now and then. I'm tired if listening to nothing but "WA3RBQ - 59... W1AW - 59... W3GX - 59..." for 15 minutes (or more). Then you get the "What's your callsign, Old Man?" and "What's his call? What's his call?" people clogging up the works.
Sometimes, you just have to call the guy, then ask "Can I have your complete callsign, please?" Yeah, I know it's not a great practice to call someone without first knowing who you are calling, but you can die of old age waiting for an ID from this crowd. Had one DX station (after not identifying for a solid 15 minutes) respond to my request for his callsign by telling me, in so many words, that he would be identifying soon... Keep listening.
Huh? Thanks, Akhmud, but in the time it took to scold me, you could have identified twice: Once in standard ITU phonetics, and once in "cute" phonetics. Grrrrrrr...
Weighing in on the original issue, my understanding is, and always has been: ID at the beginning of the QSO, at least once every 10 minutes, and at the end. Phonetics are ok, and don't have to be "standard." And you no longer need to include the other station's callsign in your ID (though I often do anyway). That's it. Case closed. Take it to the bank.
Whiskey Three Strawberry Yogurt .... out!
I am quite amused by the DIFFERENT opinions as to what the legal minimums are believed to be.
This points out why I wrote the original question.
We do not have a complete understanding from just "reading the regs" as a few of you are implying and what "has been part of good general operating procedures" seems to differ depending on who you talk to. Again, this is why I brought this up.
It is NOT obvious exactly what the legal minimums are.
A few of you who are each certain 'you' have it right, disagree on part of it. Who is correct?
At this point I will state what I believe is correct.
1. since no unidentified transmissions are allowed, we must identify at the beginning of each distinct qso, but obviouly not every time we take a turn to transmit during it.
2. ID at least every 10 minutes and at the end when you do not expect to transmit anymore.
3. Using phonetics is fine as an AID to understanding, it is NOT a valid ID. You must use the letters/digits individually at the biginning and at the end.
3A. It is a mistake (and actually illegal) to ONLY use phonetics when you ID.
This last point #3 is what I recall reading from the FCC comment that clarified the issue and which I am trying to locate.
My point was made by the differing opinions of what is "generally accepted practice" an what actually is the legal minimum requirement.
For those that think this is not an issue then you should re-read the above comments and see that there are different interpretations and that is what I am trying to clarify for myself.
If we are to be a self-regulating service then we ought to know what the "regulating" rules really mean.
VA7KBH
07-25-2002, 06:00 PM
All I know is that it's spelled out real easy up here in Canada:
For our ID, we have to:
ID at the beginning and end of every QSO
And every half hour
VA7KBH
victor alpha seven kilo bravo hotel
KC2JCA
07-25-2002, 08:03 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (dkf @ July 25 2002,11<!--emo&http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It is NOT obvious exactly what the legal minimums are.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Actually, it is QUITE OBVIOUS what the minimums are.
But you people who only read the parts of things that make your point never quite hear what is required of the rest of the group.
§97.119 Station identification.
(a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station, must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every ten minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions. No station may transmit unidentified communications or signals, or transmit as the station call sign, any call sign not authorized to the station.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A few of you who are each certain 'you' have it right, disagree on part of it. Who is correct?
At this point I will state what I believe is correct.
1. since no unidentified transmissions are allowed, we must identify at the beginning of each distinct qso, but obviouly not every time we take a turn to transmit during it.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
But, sir, the regulation clearly states att he end of the communication. Why do you insist on reading in the words "at the beginning"?
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
2. ID at least every 10 minutes and at the end when you do not expect to transmit anymore.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I just love the way you have rewritten the regs.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
3. Using phonetics is fine as an AID to understanding, it is NOT a valid ID.
You must use the letters/digits individually at the biginning and at the end.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
That's not at all what they say, you are interpreting them to your own standards just to validate your points.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
3A. It is a mistake (and actually illegal) to ONLY use phonetics when you ID.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Again, you are mistaken.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
This last point #3 is what I recall reading from the FCC comment that clarified the issue and which I am trying to locate.
My point was made by the differing opinions of what is "generally accepted practice" an what actually is the legal minimum requirement.
For those that think this is not an issue then you should re-read the above comments and see that there are different interpretations and that is what I am trying to clarify for myself.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well, you have interpreted them in a way to validate your own points. But you have far from understood them.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If we are to be a self-regulating service then we ought to know what the "regulating" rules really mean.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I agree. We'll start with you.
No unidentified transmission.
So to clarify, just how long is a transmission, and at what length of time does it constitute itself being unidentified?
For example:
I grab my HT and using the PTT I say:
"The following is a test transmission of a Radio Shack HTX-202 on the repeater located at 146.910Mhz in Central New Jersey. If any stations copy please confirm. This is KC2JCA, over."
I then release my PTT, a courtesy tone then transmits and the repeater unkeys.
At which particular word was I not following the regulations by transmitting an unidentified communication?
Please, be specific.
WB2RJR
07-25-2002, 09:34 PM
1.) BY A PHONE EMISSION IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE. USE OF A PHONETIC ALPHABETC AS AN AID FOR CORRECT STATION IDENTIFICATION IS ENCOURAGED....
2.) “Using phonetics is fine as an AID to understanding, it is NOT a valid ID.“DKF
iF YOU READ NO.1 AND THEN WROTE NO.2....THERE ARE ONE OR MORE WORDS IN NO.1 THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW THE MEANING OF OR YOU HAVE A WRONG MEANING THAT YOU BELIEVE IS CORRECT.
YOU SEEM TO THINK THAT.....
as an AID to understanding = AS AN AID FOR CORRECT STATION IDENTIFICATION
TRY LOOKING UP THE DEFINATIONS OF...AS...AN...AID & FOR. IF YOU CANNOT GIVE SEVERAL DEFINATIONS TO THESE WORDS QUICKLY....YOU REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY MEAN. LOOK THEM UP AND YOUR COMFUSION ON THIS MATTER WILL END. NO ONE CAN GET THROUGH TO YOU BECAUSE YOU THINK NO.1 SAYS SOMETHING IT DOESN'T.
ALSO I NEVER IDENTIFY AT THE BEGINNING OF A TRANSMISSION...SINCE TO DO SO WOULD BE ODD, WHICH IS WHY IT SAYS AT THE END AND EVERY 10 MINUTES.
AN EXAMPLE...K7RKR TRANSMITTING, CQ, CQ, CQ THIS IS K7RKR.
K9STH TRANSMITTING, K7RKR THIS IS K9STH. K7RKR TRANSMITTING K9FPH THIS IS K7RKR, DO I HAVE THAT CALL CORRECT FOXTROT PAPA HOTEL?
ALSO ID'ING WITH A PHONETIC ALPHABET IS ENCOURAGED...THAT MEANS THEY WOULD LIKE YOU TO DO IT SO THEY(THE FCC) DON'T GET YOUR CALL WRONG LIKE I GOT GLEN'S.
73 ALL, MARTY K7RKR
this post is a good exercise, in that, it has caused people to review the fcc regs relative to station id, phonetics, etc....and yes there are portions that may be subject to interpretation,this is not uncommon in any area of the law, that's why we have lawyers and courts...there is nothing in any of the interpretations that would have a serious impact on operating procedure....while i am sure it may have happened over the years.....when was the last time you heard or read of a ham being charged, by the fcc, #with going a couple of minutes over on a station id, or charged for using, not using, or using the wrong phonetics...sometimes things need to be placed in their proper perspective.
AC7EL
07-29-2002, 01:34 AM
The FCC's rules for ID'ing are just what the FCC regs say: You only have to ID at the end of a series of transmissions (and after 10 minutes). #There is no requirement to ID at the beginning. #Most people do ID at the beginning, but that is a courtesy, not a requirment. #In the Technician License Question Pool, questions T1D07 thru T1D10 deal with this issue, and the correct answers are consistent with what I stated above.
These rules permit the use of tactical callsigns for public service work. #Stations use calls like "Net Control" or "Fire Station" to establish communications. #At the end of each series of transmissions, each gives his own FCC callsign.
Regarding the use of phonetics, from ARRL - In Brief - May 17, 2000 (http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2000/05/17/1/)
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Riley Hollingsworth: Is my face red? FCC Special Counsel for Amateur Radio Enforcement Riley Hollingsworth says he was just trying to see if the amateur community was paying attention when he suggested on his recent Radio Amateur Information Network enforcement news report (http://www.rainreport.com) that the use of phonetics during station identification was contrary to the amateur rules. As Hollingsworth has since conceded, after being challenged from several quarters, the applicable FCC station ID rule--§97.119(b)(2)--specifically encourages "use of a standard phonetic alphabet as an aid for correct station identification" [emphasis added]. "I plead temporary insanity," Hollingsworth told the ARRL. "I was working too close to my antennas the evening before." [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Thus use of phonetics is legal and encouraged.
K9STH
07-29-2002, 03:15 AM
There is still the "unidentified" transmission prohibition. If someone were to make an initial transmission that lasted for 10 minutes, then, in my interpretation of the regulations, all that would be required is the signing of the call sign at the 10 minute mark. However, since most transmissions do not last that long (a repeater's timer should take care of that on FM), you still have to give your call sign at least once during the first transmission. As long as this transmission is identified, I don't think it matters exactly wherein that initial transmission the identification is made. But, I always identify usually within the first 5 words, or so.
If one makes more than one transmission without identifying, then, I firmly believe, that they are in violation of the identification regulations. In fact, as soon as the station stops transmitting without identifying for the initial exchange, then the law has been "technically" violated.
What "chaps" me is when someone breaks into a QSO, usually on an FM repeater, and starts making comments. Often, one, or more, of the stations in the "roundtable" know who the person is. But, that does not do anything for those who do not know the breaking station. Even if there was not the regulation about unidentified transmissions, common courtesy calls for a breaking station to identify.
Glen, K9STH
KB9YFI
07-29-2002, 03:55 AM
I do not believe that the rules intend a station to identify on _each_ transmission. If they did than the station who did not identify at the end of his first transmission would be in violation. Thusly, a station would have to re-identify on each following transmission. If a station were to not identify on his first transmission and some motor-mouth were to break in and start a new conversation with the other station and not allow the first station to identify after 10 minutes then technically he would be in violation. Would he be in violation if he QRM'd the breaking station in an attempt to ID? What if he had no other choice? I think that the rules are good for general operation but must be applied to a situation like this with some leniency. I have been in the above situation and was so disgusted by being ram-rodded right out of a QSO that I just ID'd and QSY'd to another machine. People that slavishly adhere to the rules for the sake of rules are missing the point of why they were made in the first point.
Jim - KB9YFI
KC2JCA
07-29-2002, 06:01 AM
I think I better rework my CW rig. In "break in mode" just the act of sending the "C" character would be 4 separate unidentified transmissions.
73, Jim - kc2jca
AC7UX
07-29-2002, 06:08 AM
It`s really to bad something so simple has to become so complicated. Simplicity: Whose nature is so far from doing harm that he suspects none....SHAKESPEARE......
ke5wj
07-30-2002, 12:55 AM
This discussion is truly amazing.
Anyone who isn't sure of how and when to identify, please don't transmit.
n0xas
07-30-2002, 02:32 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ke5wj @ July 29 2002,19:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This discussion is truly amazing.
Anyone who isn't sure of how and when to identify, please don't transmit.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Best suggestion I've heard yet! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
K9STH
07-30-2002, 03:49 PM
At one time, the Part 97 regulations "spelled out" the indentification requirements as follows:
1. At the beginning and end of each series of transmissions (i.e. at the start and end of the QSO).
2. At 10 minute intervals during a series of transmissions.
3. If a single transmission was in excess of 3 minutes, then at the end of that particular transmission.
4. At least one of the stations in which one was in communications must be identified along with your call sign (if engaged in a "round table", net, etc., only one station of the group had to be identified) at each time the station identification was required.
Those regulations have become somewhat relaxed. However, if you follow the "old" rules, then you will definitely meet all identification requirements.
Glen, K9STH
k6ncx
08-09-2002, 07:18 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (K9STH @ July 28 2002,20:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is still the "unidentified" transmission prohibition. #If someone were to make an initial transmission that lasted for 10 minutes, then, in my interpretation of the regulations, all that would be required is the signing of the call sign at the 10 minute mark. #However, since most transmissions do not last that long (a repeater's timer should take care of that on FM), you still have to give your call sign at least once during the first transmission. #As long as this transmission is identified, I don't think it matters exactly wherein that initial transmission the identification is made. #But, I always identify usually within the first 5 words, or so.
If one makes more than one transmission without identifying, then, I firmly believe, that they are in violation of the identification regulations. #In fact, as soon as the station stops transmitting without identifying for the initial exchange, then the law has been "technically" violated.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
No, Glen, the regs say "transmission or series of transmissions." Why assume they mean something other than what they say?
What you describe may be rude, but not a violation.
K9STH
08-09-2002, 03:12 PM
For NCX:
I'm not sure that we are on the same "frequency"! The regulations allow for identification every 10 minutes during a sequence of transmissions. That is, every transmission does not have to be identified. However, they also prohibit "unidentified" transmissions (or series of transmissions). Thus, I interpret that to mean identification should be made on the initial transmission since not to do so results in a "series" of transmissions that are not identified. Your interpretation may be different.
Frankly, I think that the FCC should go back to the earlier regulations that actually "spelled out" what identification procedures actually were. That would take the "guess" out of it!
Glen, K9STH