When does scavenging become thievery?

[k4kyv]

I have always been a strong advocate of salvaging usable items from discarded or refuse material. Whenever I have lived in a city with streetside rubbish pickup, I have made it a point to keep my eyes peeled for useable stuff set out on the street on "trash day." I have been known to return from the dump a few times with the truck nearly as full as it was when I left the house.

Some folks get uptight at the very thought of people scavenging through trash, but my position is, once you discard it you have relinquished any claim to it, and it's fair game for the pickings. However, one should not pick through trash and walk away leaving a mess behind; clean up after yourself.

But sometimes scavenging can cross the line over to thievery. Were should that line be drawn?

Police warn scavengers to stay away (http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=2594143)

Discussion thread: Beach scavengers (http://boards.live.com/UKNewsboards/thread.aspx?BoardID=770&ThreadID=176346)

[KG4CGC]

I don't think an uninvestigated shipwreck should be touched.
It was in reach of the beach combers though who make a way of life of this.
It was a container ship. I'm sure the temptation is great.

[W4BD]

Well unless I am badly mistaken the Supreme Court has ruled that once you put your trash on the PUBLIC RIGHT OF WAY for pick up it becomes PUBLIC. This is the basis for the Police to be able to go through your trash sitting on the curb without a Warrant. A lot of Local Governments that pick up the trash make money off of salvage of metal and other things of value. In other words they don't want COMPETITION.

73's

[n0jaa]

I don't know about other locales, but in Houston, trash placed along the curb for pick-up is STILL the property of the home/property owner until it is collected by the city's garbage/heavy trash collectors. #This means that anyone digging through someone else's trash BEFORE it has been picked up is trespassing on private property, which is a misdemeanor in Harris County. #The same goes for dumpster diving if the dumpster is located on private property.

If the refuse is taken to a public collection area or a local dump, then that is a different story.

I know that local ordinances vary from city to city, so such rules might not be in effect in other locales. #Ordinances like the one I referenced above seem to be applicable mainly to municipalities that have city- or county-run garbage services.

I live in Brevard County, FL now, and the rules here are much different. #Trash put out at the curb is open to anyone.

[W2ILP]

This is a tough subject.
Going to the dumps was, in my case, part of my education. I found a place near the East River Bronx garbage dumps, where the RCA service company dumped what they believed to be bad vacuum tubes and parts. I also found broken business machines, radios and TV chassis in the dumps as well as discarded parachutes with cases that could be converted to book carriers.

I built a Heathkit tube checker and checked the tubes, saving only those which were still good (had no shorts and had good cathode emission.) I must admit that I used some of these good burned in tubes for my budding TV repair business. I salvaged whatever parts I could from radios , TV sets and business machines, even including screws, nuts, terminal strips, connectors, sockets and lock washers. I salvaged motors from discarded refrigerators, etc. Looking back..I learned a lot from the junk I was able to find , even if it was impossible to fix it. I always tried to figure out how it was supposed to work. I visited the dumps from age 12 to age 16. My biggest problem was my mother. She often refused to let me bring the stinking stuff into our apartment. Sometimes I had to hide it until she wasn't home and sneak it in. I was very resourceful about that, considering that we lived in a 3-room apartment with very little space to hide big stuff. I would first chean up my treasures and get rid of anything that could not possibly be of use and then it couldn't be recognized from stuff that I had bought new, or gotten from friends or relatives who knew I was an apprentice level TV & Radio Repairman. Lots of the parts and tubes were of use when I started building Ham Radio stuff and some was traded for parts with other hams. I still have some of the valuable power transformers, variable capacitors and hardware that is now hard to find.

The stuff I found was being thrown out because nobody wanted it...so I never felt that I was steeling it...but I did feel ashamed of myself for being a garbage picker. It is not a healthy thing to go to the stinking dumps and rummage through trash. I had no money at the time and it was the only way I could get parts to start me on my future career...so I'm not ashamed to admit it now. Many years later I took electronics lab courses in college. The other students had to buy kits of parts. I only bought a few parts in RS because I had a greater variety of stuff than most of the remaining radio part stores had.

w2ilp (Invaluable Lousy Picking)...Oh...Ah...Was it was a steel?http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[KB9YFI]

I've never seen a problem with scavenging as long as people don't make a mess of the garbage. Bums do this all the time in search of aluminum cans. They dig through the garbage around here and rip open every bag. You see them pushing shopping carts (stolen from local grocery stores) heaped full of aluminum cans. I guess they make enough money to buy their booze and drugs. It's better than them breaking windows and stealing my radios out of my car. I have more money in radios in my car than the car is worth.... Of course they will only get $5-10 for them if they are LUCKY. Not to mention the cost of a new window.

As far as stuff lost at sea, international law of the sea says that anything abandoned or lost at sea is "finder's keepers" -even a boat that is adrift and accepts a tow from another vessel is subject to this and can lose their rights to ownership and salvage. Of course this only applies in international waters. This is usually 12 miles out to sea in the ocean. I think that the US isn't a signatory to this anyhow and also claims more than the standard 20 miles. So do China and other oppressive dictatorships.

One thing to be careful about "curbside dumpster-diving" is that many charity organizations operate by telling their doners to leave stuff at the curb so they can pick it up. What you might think is "junk" is actually spoken for by some charity org. If something looks too nice to be junk it doesn't hurt to ask. It might be earmarked for the salvation army or such.

One time I got a wheelbarrow for free. The sign on the side said "free." When I got it home I got to thinking, 'maybe the wheelbarrow wasn't free but whatever was in it was..." -like a bunch of vegetables or such...

But it was a pretty darn junky wheelbarrow and it had a flat tire so I'm fairly certain that wasn't the case -or at least I HOPE so...

[N2RJ]

Hi guys, you all are ignoring the fact that this happened in England. The laws are differen there...

[KD6NIG]

Depends on where you live.

At the transfer stations here (everything winds up at a central dump after sorting, commodity removal for things that can be recycled, etc) there are signs everywhere that prohibit scavenging. These signs also list the county code section you'll be violating.

Where I live in Stockton, I believe there is a law on the books against it, but its not enforced very heavily. I have called in on one scavenger after the person dug through my trash looking for stuff and left a total mess around my can and the neighbors can. By the time someone responded though I had to clean it up as the truck was arriving.

When we have the 'clean up' days where you can put stuff on the curb (except hazmat, obviously) there will be pickup trucks going everywhere picking up stuff the night before. The notice states that people are prohibited from scavenging (and it lists the city code also) but I have yet to see someone be stopped by the law for doing so.

I think it varies by area. My personal opinion? If I put something on the curb I no longer need it. If you can make use of it, thats fine with me, and I've had people ask me if they could take stuff and I gave permission. The only issue I have is when people dig through and leave a mess. Thats only happened once, thankfully.

But when I put something in the can or on the curb, as far as I'm concerned, I relinquish ownership. You can have the used cat litter and other various refuse if you really want it-or stuff that I put out that is likely more of value.

And for the hazmat here, we have a special center that takes that stuff. It doesn't go out on the cleanup days either http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I assume they take my used oil and sell it to a recycler or something. Thats fine with me http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KB9YFI]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Jan. 23 2007,10:46)]It is not a healthy thing to go to the stinking dumps and rummage through trash. I had no money at the time and it was the only way I could get parts to start me on my future career...so I'm not ashamed to admit it now
Maybe not as unhealthy as you might suspect. All that exposure to germs and such probably inoculated you to many things and helped build a really strong immune system for you.

People are much too clean today. We kill every germ before it gets close to us. What we have done is make stronger, resistant germs from the ones our anti-biotics didn't kill and weaker kids who never are allowed to play in the dirt.

As for the still-good tubes that were dumped maybe they worked but they were slightly "out of spec." A big company doesn't want to mess around with good stuff that might cause their equipment to take extra tuning. They probably bought in bulk and used unskilled labor to test the tubes using a test rig that has very high tolerances. What was good to you as a repair part probably was too much work for them to make work in the assembly line.

I used to live near a Ray-o-vac plant. They threw away THOUSANDS of what us kids considered perfectly good batteries that we used in our toys and games. I'm sure they were slightly out of spec for some reason or another. The wrong weight, over-sized, internal resistance slightly wrong. Anything not perfect from their QA viewpoint got tossed. Back then we had no problem diving through the dumpster.

I'm sure that all the carbon DUST we inhaled while doing this didn't help our lungs at all...

[KB9YFI]

Oh, forgot to mention.

That when a manufacturer or an end user in an assembly plant finds a fault in a batch -or a certain number of faults when they do QA checks it is sometimes easier and cheaper to toss the whole batch rather than test the units or take a "chance" depending on how critical the component is. I've been on jobs where we were told to throw away every part from a certain order and not use them. The manufacturer even paid us to remove them if they had already been installed and drop-shipped new components to us to replace the ones we threw away free of charge.

I even spent 2 weeks replacing every SINGLE ballast in a new section of General Casualty's new International Headquarters in Madison, WI after the fixtures had been installed because they were slightly out of spec and the execs were complaining about a slighly higher noise level (hum).

I was doing well over 12 ballasts an hour on average by the time I finished that project -without even a ground helper! The fact that there were 2 or 3 ballasts/fixture didn't hurt either. GE paid us 20-min/ballast at JW scale. My boss made a big profit at that one. Of all the jobs I ever ran as a foreman, that one-man job made more percentage over bid than any other. The next job I was given by my company was a 2.5million dollar bid!

Anyhow. A lot of good/salvagable new stuff gets thrown away by big companies because it is "beneath them" or not profitable for them to fix them. A few of those "bad" ballasts ended up finding their way into my own home as they were better than the even louder ones (these were supposed to be "ultra-low" noise transformers -and still were pretty quiet in the larger scheme of things) I had in my rec-room downstairs... and more efficient too!

[kc7cc]

Quote[/b] (k4kyv @ Jan. 23 2007,08:03)]I have always been a strong advocate of salvaging usable items from discarded or refuse material. #Whenever I have lived in a city with streetside rubbish pickup, I have made it a point to keep my eyes peeled for useable stuff set out on the street on "trash day." #I have been known to return from the dump a few times with the truck nearly as full as it was when I left the house. #

Some folks get uptight at the very thought of people scavenging through trash, but my position is, once you discard it you have relinquished any claim to it, and it's fair game for the pickings. #However, one should not pick through trash and walk away leaving a mess behind; clean up after yourself.

But sometimes scavenging can cross the line over to thievery. #Were should that line be drawn?

Police warn scavengers to stay away (http://news.uk.msn.com/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=2594143)

Discussion thread: Beach scavengers (http://boards.live.com/UKNewsboards/thread.aspx?BoardID=770&ThreadID=176346)
Its politic , the police need a paycheck ,
so they want many laws to "enforce"
for job security ...

But what about Microsoft ( Job Security )

M$ did not add value , so they should
not be taxed ! V.A.T.

But since M$ did not add value , they
merely bought out other s/w companies
to keep us from having much better s/w ,
WAIT ! STOP ! Thats a crime !

To copyright and buy out your competition
is "Anti-Trust" , D.O.J. !!

Its unAmerican !

But i have the DOJ explanation .
They have refused to act on my behalf
in other Anti-Trust matters , where
a large corp clearly stold my money,
reused to "compete" in a free mkt .

DOJ has closed the door on the
14th Amndmnt to our Constitution .

In America , you do NOT have the
right to seek a judge
(unpaid-off , by , and of you peers)
and request the judge file charges ..

We no longer have "access to due process
of law "
Thus , there is nothing an America can
do to stop crime ..

[KI4PEQ]

Did ANYONE actually READ the article?

We're not talking about refuse, we're talking about MARINE SALVAGE. The owners and shipper of these goods DID NOT throw anything away. The ship was holed in a storm and was deliberately run aground to keep it from sinking. The items that washed ashore are no different than the items that are scattered by a tornado or hurricane. Try to explain to the authorities that hurricane and tornado debris was deliberately thrown away, and you are merely picking up refuse.

No, that is out and out theft, it is looting, and around these parts, if you did something like that to storm victims, you are very likely to have your thieving a$$ shot.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ Jan. 23 2007,13:30)]Did ANYONE actually READ the article?

We're not talking about refuse, we're talking about MARINE SALVAGE. The owners and shipper of these goods DID NOT throw anything away. The ship was holed in a storm and was deliberately run aground to keep it from sinking. The items that washed ashore are no different than the items that are scattered by a tornado or hurricane. Try to explain to the authorities that hurricane and tornado debris was deliberately thrown away, and you are merely picking up refuse.

No, that is out and out theft, it is looting, and around these parts, if you did something like that to storm victims, you are very likely to have your thieving a$$ shot.
Exactly.

[KB9YFI]

Many people have dial-up still and clickage is just too much for them. The thread ALSO talked about curbside picking from the very first poster so I don't think having the thread go in that direction is off-topic.

I've never had anything good wash up on my front door so I don't have much to say about that.

But an X-GF once had some cousins that "found" a bunch of stuff while out hunting in the N. Wisconsin woods.

The fact that they "found" it in a locked boxcar sitting in an out of the way railroad siding didn't seem to mean anything to them.

It was an ENTIRE boxcar full of dog food in bags. They only took a couple hundred bags each and hauled them away in their pick-em-up trucks. They were giving it away to family and friends for years. After a while a shed full of dog food has got to get pretty ripe and waste a lot of space for worthwhile things to be stored.

That definately crosses the line into "thievery" in my book. Thieves should have their hand cut off at the very first offense, and the second they should have the other hand cut off. This is one of very few muslim practices of "justice" that I agree with.

At the 3rd offense the neck should be shortened just 1/8".

The stuff washed up on the beach is a gray area. If it was just "parked" there for safe storage (so it wouldn't sink) by running aground then anyone who molested it would be stealing. But the owners should have posted some sort of guard if they felt the stuff was valuable enough to save.

[G0GQK]

If you check out a number of British newspapers you will then have a full understanding of the law concerning the salvaging of items washed up on a British beach.

People who pick up items washed up on the beach are required by law to notify the authorities by filling in a form with their names and addresses within a certain period. The items they have taken are not officially their own unless the owners of the property agree, and if they request them to be returned, they should be returned. #Offences are committed if the forms are not given to the authorities and if the items are not returned following a request to do so.

The latest news indicates that 50 BMW motorcycles have been removed from the beach and a number of them still in their transit packaging and undamaged. Someone arrived on the beach with boltcutters and broke open the container with the motorcycles and this is stealing and they should be arrested and charged with theft.

There will however, be a problem. They will be unable to register the motorcycles to use them on the road. Ownership has to be proved, they will be unable to obtain registration plates, they will not be able to tax and insure the bikes, and if and when they do the police will be informed and they will have an early knock on the door and the motorcycle will be confiscated and they will end up in court, and perhaps prison.

I know of this village I tried to drive down to the beach last year and gave up because the lane was so narrow and there were no passing places. It would have been quite easy for the police to prevent entry into the village if the local police superintendent had so wished. It must have been absolute mayhem in Branscombe the last three days with gangs of people dragging pallets of everything. One idiot was on TV rolling a barrel of wine up the hill out of the village, where to, god only knows !

The incident has shown a certain section of British society for what they are and always have been, and that's why our prisons are full and overflowing. if it isn't nailed down, bolted into the ground, has a heavy chain on it with a half ton weight attached, they will steal it.

G0GQK

[KB9YFI]

OMG. WOW!

I am glad I don't live in England -or anyplace else in Europe! Although the US has the monopoly on number of people in prison per capita.

Having to fill out a form for everything? Heil much? As for the BMW's not being able to be registered, have you ever seen how much BMW parts go for? Those bikes will be sold on ebay. Watch the site. I 'm sure there will be a ton of parts showing up there. A new BMW can be parted out and sold on ebay for more than it is worth in one piece.

Funny that the Brits, who have been a socialist welfare state for so long, don't have any respect for private property. In a country where you don't even have the right to actually OWN your TV set and have to pay rent on it in taxes it doesn't surprise me that the concept of "this isn't yours, it belongs to HIM" is now beyond them .

Now excuse me, I've got a barrel of wine to attend to...hic@!

[n1ydx]

Thieves...No doubt

I put trash out on Wednesday mornings around 7am. There is a blue van that comes around 15 min before the trash truck. Anything good out there is picked up immediately, even scrapes of wood or metal.

I don't care and neither do the neighbors because the guy is neat. Doesn't leave a mess.

But the items washed up on the beach, the shipping line should have notified the local authorities to close down the beach if his containers were floating to shore.

BTW, any containers of HF Gear ?

N1YDX - Lee

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (KB9YFI @ Jan. 23 2007,09:01)]Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Jan. 23 2007,10:46)]It is not a healthy thing to go to the stinking dumps and rummage through trash. I had no money at the time and it was the only way I could get parts to start me on my future career...so I'm not ashamed to admit it now
Maybe not as unhealthy as you might suspect. All that exposure to germs and such probably inoculated you to many things and helped build a really strong immune system for you.

People are much too clean today. We kill every germ before it gets close to us. What we have done is make stronger, resistant germs from the ones our anti-biotics didn't kill and weaker kids who never are allowed to play in the dirt.

As for the still-good tubes that were dumped maybe they worked but they were slightly "out of spec." A big company doesn't want to mess around with good stuff that might cause their equipment to take extra tuning. They probably bought in bulk and used unskilled labor to test the tubes using a test rig that has very high tolerances. What was good to you as a repair part probably was too much work for them to make work in the assembly line.

I used to live near a Ray-o-vac plant. They threw away THOUSANDS of what us kids considered perfectly good batteries that we used in our toys and games. I'm sure they were slightly out of spec for some reason or another. The wrong weight, over-sized, internal resistance slightly wrong. Anything not perfect from their QA viewpoint got tossed. Back then we had no problem diving through the dumpster.

I'm sure that all the carbon DUST we inhaled while doing this didn't help our lungs at all...
Quote[/b] ]
I used to live near a Ray-o-vac plant. They threw away THOUSANDS of what us kids considered perfectly good batteries that we used in our toys and games. I'm sure they were slightly out of spec for some reason or another. The wrong weight, over-sized, internal resistance slightly wrong. Anything not perfect from their QA viewpoint got tossed. Back then we had no problem diving through


Were those alkaline cells or zinc carbon ? Did a lot of them have a tendency to leak ? In the 1980's I used to work for Duracell's R&D facility and we used to toss away loads upon loads of alkaline cells. Some we unjacketed and others jacketed. Some were cases sent up to us from the plants because they were out of spec, experiencing problems (i.e. excessive leakage, poor electrical characteristics, etc.) Others were experimental cells in which the formulations were altered. The experimental cells were particularly nasty, often they would out gas and leak all over the place. I remember one time having a box of them nearby and the darned things were venting and leaking one after the other.

[KB9YFI]

This was back in the '70's. Come to think of it, quite a few of the batteries were (mostly D-cells, some C and the new-fangled AA "pen lite" size) were in just cardboard cases without the metal outside. Perhaps they were a bit bigger and the metal cases didn't fit?

And this was RAY-O-VAC they ALL leaked and gassed like a dragon -the ones we scrounged out of the junk we tested on our dad's volt-meters or tried the "lick test" to see if they were good enough. We put them in our flashlights and ran around with them at night playing tag. When they leaked we washed them out with baking soda and sprayed WD-40 inside. I'm not sure if they leaked any more than the ones my parents bought in the store.

Nobody bought Ever-ready or other brands. We supported our local brand since there were made here. It doesn't matter that the town bought them for decades because a few years back (10 or so?) they closed the plant and moved production off-shore. They still have the "world headquarters" but they don't call themselves Ray-O-Vac anymore. It's "Spectrum Brands" and all they are is a holding company.

The city was kinda mad when they pulled up stakes. Nobody would buy their crappy batteries anymore. People were really pissed at them. The city gave them a huge payoff to stay the year before and they took it but closed anyhow the next year. The local stores were throwing the batteries away when they expired because they wouldn't sell. They don't hold a candle (power) to an energizer or a coppertop.

We didn't even bother pulling them out of the junk. Kids today don't junk-pick anymore anyhow. They are above that. All they care about is playing their games on the TV. No fun taking apart stuff like we did.

At that time I had discovered Ni-Cads and the wonder of rechargables. Now we have even better rechargables. Who wants Ray-o-Vac junk?

I haven't had a leaky battery in decades.

But back then, we didn't care. We just wanted some batteries and if they didn't last very long -we just put in more -and kept a sharp eye out for leakers!

[N3ATS]

Quote[/b] ]When does scavenging become thievery?

When you take something of value from someone out of want. Theivery

When you take something because of the need to sustain life and there is no reasonable means to ask permission. Scavenging.


Hurricane Katrina for example. People who were taking bottled water, food, diapers, medicines, etc. and were doing so out of need, were scavengers.

The people who were stealing booze, electronics, piles of clothing because they wanted to get back at "The Man" were thieves.

[ab8ro]

Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Jan. 22 2007,17:21)]Quote[/b] ]When does scavenging become thievery?

When you take something of value from someone out of want. #Theivery
That's really too simple. Many people throw away things of value. Moreover, I don't care how hungry you are if you steal my property and I catch you, I'm pressing charges.

BTW: If you haven't heard of freecycle (http://www.freecycle.org/) you should check them out. There's probably a group in your neighborhood. Basically, they advocate giving things away rather than throwing things away.

I prefer to freecycle stuff than just throw it in the trash. You would be surprised what people will come and pick up. You get to choose who receives the item. Certainly there's probably some reselling going on, but, for the most part it's pretty easy to make sure it gets to someone who's going to use it.

I will post an ad to give something away and choose from the email responses. I always let people know that I am making the choice and that there is say 48 hours to respond before I do so. I always separate things out so that it's less likely that it will end up in some thrift store. Most resellers can't be bothered to go fetch one or two low value items.

If I'm giving away something that's borderline, i.e., it's not worth enough to sell but it's worth enough that there will be a lot of competition, I'm a little pickier about who I give it to.

If I have something to sell, that's what craigslist is for.

BTW: I have successfully given away a mousepad that came free in the mail with a bank advertisement so it doesn't have to be worth much before someone will come and get it.

[KB9YFI]

+1 on freecycle. It's easy and no-fuss. Give it away and you don't have to worry about being there to take the money. If they don't show up and pick it up from your front porch then re-list it and let someone else take it.

I gave away TONS of stuff on Freecycle when I got divorced and moved out of my old house. I had a Free GARAGE SALE where everything was free at the end and people just came and hauled off all the stuff I didn't want. It was worth it as it was simple fast and easy. No work. I probably could have made $250 on all that junk but after paying for ads, sitting around all day and watching people try and haggle you down a nickle on your posessions it is not worth it. Just put it out on the driveway and let them cart it off.

Not a scrap was left after I was done that didn't fit in a couple of large garbage bags and was hauled with the regular garbage from that last week.

Anything of any value goes on craig's list. It's more of a pain to deal with people but some of my good stuff worth over $40 or so bucks was too painful to just give away.

All I saved where my tools, my guns, my radios, and my "can't ever throw away mementos. It fit in one small storage shed. My next place had plenty of room when I moved in with my GF but not for junk so I was ready to go.

Don't junk stuff, let it be recycled by those who want it.

[KF0RT]

The city I live in used to have a once-a-year trash pickup where they'd take just about anything. Old furniture, TV's, car tires... They'd bring big dump trucks and front-end loaders and just haul it all off. And it was free.

They would give you a 4-day window when they'd be by and you'd just pile it all up on the curb. Couches, old BBQ grills, you name it. What was fun and funny about it was that the scavengers were always ahead of the pickup. The city did NOT discourage this, and I don't know of anyone who complained about it -- it was really part of the process.

They quit doing it 3-4 years ago because of the cost. I miss it. One year, I put out two TV sets -- one was non-functioning and the other was having problems. I even taped the remote controls to them. It snowed the night I put them out and someone took them the next morning. Another time, we put a BBQ grill out. An elderly couple came by and took just the top hinged part. It took them about 10 minutes to get it apart. But, it was probably 10 pounds of aluminum and they didn't have room for the whole thing.

73, Rob

[N3ATS]

Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Jan. 23 2007,18:52)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Jan. 22 2007,17:21)]Quote[/b] ]When does scavenging become thievery?

When you take something of value from someone out of want. Theivery
That's really too simple. Many people throw away things of value. Moreover, I don't care how hungry you are if you steal my property and I catch you, I'm pressing charges.

BTW: If you haven't heard of freecycle (http://www.freecycle.org/) you should check them out. There's probably a group in your neighborhood. Basically, they advocate giving things away rather than throwing things away.
Yeah it's simplified, and yes it is, by the letter of the law still wrong.

Hypothetically speaking... If your house was flooding, and you had abandoned it due to this natural disaster. If I was trapped in the neighborhood and I needed some sort of life-sustaining necessity that I was certain you had in your house. And if I had no other options and you weren't around to ask. Would you have me arrested for scavenging food or medicine for my 2 year old daughter?

That's a really far cry from breaking in to steal your TV because it's "there" and you're not, and I just "want to have it".

[n1ydx]

Last time I was in Germany, they had a program like that. Each month there was a time folks could put out anything they wanted. Village would have vehicles to pick the stuff up.

Most of the time, prior to the pickup day, you'd see the 'have-nots' getting stuff they could use from the 'got too much.'

One mans trash - another mans treasure.

N1YDX - Lee

[ab8ro]

Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Jan. 22 2007,20:27)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Jan. 23 2007,18:52)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Jan. 22 2007,17:21)]Quote[/b] ]When does scavenging become thievery?

When you take something of value from someone out of want. #Theivery
That's really too simple. Many people throw away things of value. Moreover, I don't care how hungry you are if you steal my property and I catch you, I'm pressing charges.

BTW: If you haven't heard of freecycle (http://www.freecycle.org/) you should check them out. There's probably a group in your neighborhood. Basically, they advocate giving things away rather than throwing things away.
Yeah it's simplified, and yes it is, by the letter of the law still wrong. #

Hypothetically speaking... #If your house was flooding, and you had abandoned it due to this natural disaster. #If I was trapped in the neighborhood and I needed some sort of life-sustaining necessity that I was certain you had in your house. #And if I had no other options and you weren't around to ask. #Would you have me arrested for scavenging food or medicine for my 2 year old daughter?

That's a really far cry from breaking in to steal your TV because it's "there" and you're not, and I just "want to have it".
Yep, I would. You can't have the benefits of socialism on demand. If you want people to care about your two year old daughter when you're down and out then you have to demonstrate today that you care about others who are down and out.

As long as this country has billionares and homeless people, then there is no need for me personally to care about your problems. In a capitalist society it is my duty to act in my best financial interests and that includes putting you in jail for taking my belongings.

Now, if you want to suggest that we all have some responsibility to each other and that we band together to make sure our laws reflect that, then we have something to talk about.

The key point is that you cannot bend property laws to suit the convenience of the masses just because the fortune of the masses has changed. If you want the property laws to reflect the obligation that other people have to society, then get started changing them now.

[G0GQK]

The beach at Branscombe was eventually sealed off by the police and all the scroungers prevented from entering a police cordon around the beached containers. The local council sent in cleaners to remove all the rubbish and it is now almost back to normal.

Apparently the police did not close the road into the village because they were uncertain about the law concerning salvaging from shipwrecks which is quite complicated. I would have thought a bit of nouse might have come in handy such as suggesting a farmer have a slight accident with farm trailer which has blocked access to the village.

Incidentally perhaps I could straighten out a few strange ideas which have appeared a few posts up !

In the United Kingdom a shipping line, in other words a company which owns a vessel which sails through waters around Britain does not have the authority, and never had, to close a beach where goods from the vessel have landed. All beaches are public places and the only time public access is refused is during War Emergency or if hazardous materials have been found such as bombs, mines toxic chemicals etc.

Regarding the sale of BMW motor cycle parts on E-bay. The HM Customs and Excise and the police monitor E-bay for selling of stolen property and to locate tax evasion by people pretending to be selling privately but are in fact "black economy" business's.

The BMW moter cycles taken from the beach do not belong to the person taking them UNLESS the owner, or the insurance company specifically states they may keep them, and this position continues for 12 months. In other words, they are not permitted to sell the motor cycles, or if they are dismantled, the parts may not be sold #individually. Should they do this they will be charged with theft.

So, as soon as BMW motor cycle parts start appearing on E-bay the "long arm of the law" will take action.

Finally, where did you get the idea that people in Britain do not have the right to own their TV's ? Somebody must have told you, and it is complete garbage ! People do not these days rent TV's and when they did, it was because at the time they could not afford to buy one.

When you #refer to a tax on TV I think you have confused this with a TV license, some of the money from this is given to the BBC by the government to finance the entire TV and national and local radio services. There are many TV companies in Britain and they are known as commercial TV because they have revenue from selling viewing time for advertisements.

Well, that's better now I've straightened things out a bit !

G0GQK

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Jan. 24 2007,10:48)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Jan. 22 2007,20:27)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Jan. 23 2007,18:52)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Jan. 22 2007,17:21)]Quote[/b] ]When does scavenging become thievery?

When you take something of value from someone out of want. Theivery
That's really too simple. Many people throw away things of value. Moreover, I don't care how hungry you are if you steal my property and I catch you, I'm pressing charges.

BTW: If you haven't heard of freecycle (http://www.freecycle.org/) you should check them out. There's probably a group in your neighborhood. Basically, they advocate giving things away rather than throwing things away.
Yeah it's simplified, and yes it is, by the letter of the law still wrong.

Hypothetically speaking... If your house was flooding, and you had abandoned it due to this natural disaster. If I was trapped in the neighborhood and I needed some sort of life-sustaining necessity that I was certain you had in your house. And if I had no other options and you weren't around to ask. Would you have me arrested for scavenging food or medicine for my 2 year old daughter?

That's a really far cry from breaking in to steal your TV because it's "there" and you're not, and I just "want to have it".
Yep, I would. You can't have the benefits of socialism on demand. If you want people to care about your two year old daughter when you're down and out then you have to demonstrate today that you care about others who are down and out.

As long as this country has billionares and homeless people, then there is no need for me personally to care about your problems. In a capitalist society it is my duty to act in my best financial interests and that includes putting you in jail for taking my belongings.

Now, if you want to suggest that we all have some responsibility to each other and that we band together to make sure our laws reflect that, then we have something to talk about.

The key point is that you cannot bend property laws to suit the convenience of the masses just because the fortune of the masses has changed. If you want the property laws to reflect the obligation that other people have to society, then get started changing them now.
So, you are saying that if someone was dying and the very thing that will save their life is on your premisis but you weren't around you'd have the person arrested and you'd press charges ? You adhere to the capitalist principle of "what's mine is all mine" and "damned if you dare to use it without paying", as first and foremost even in a dire situation ? That seems a bit too sharp edged for me. I think I'd cut people some slack under such circumstances. In dire circumstances I doubt I'd be pressing charges against anyone. And if I did I would hope the judge has enough decency to throw me out of court.

[ab8ro]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Jan. 23 2007,18:04)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Jan. 24 2007,10:48)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Jan. 22 2007,20:27)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Jan. 23 2007,18:52)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Jan. 22 2007,17:21)]Quote[/b] ]When does scavenging become thievery?

When you take something of value from someone out of want. #Theivery
That's really too simple. Many people throw away things of value. Moreover, I don't care how hungry you are if you steal my property and I catch you, I'm pressing charges.

BTW: If you haven't heard of freecycle (http://www.freecycle.org/) you should check them out. There's probably a group in your neighborhood. Basically, they advocate giving things away rather than throwing things away.
Yeah it's simplified, and yes it is, by the letter of the law still wrong. #

Hypothetically speaking... #If your house was flooding, and you had abandoned it due to this natural disaster. #If I was trapped in the neighborhood and I needed some sort of life-sustaining necessity that I was certain you had in your house. #And if I had no other options and you weren't around to ask. #Would you have me arrested for scavenging food or medicine for my 2 year old daughter?

That's a really far cry from breaking in to steal your TV because it's "there" and you're not, and I just "want to have it".
Yep, I would. You can't have the benefits of socialism on demand. If you want people to care about your two year old daughter when you're down and out then you have to demonstrate today that you care about others who are down and out.

As long as this country has billionares and homeless people, then there is no need for me personally to care about your problems. In a capitalist society it is my duty to act in my best financial interests and that includes putting you in jail for taking my belongings.

Now, if you want to suggest that we all have some responsibility to each other and that we band together to make sure our laws reflect that, then we have something to talk about. #

The key point is that you cannot bend property laws to suit the convenience of the masses just because the fortune of the masses has changed. If you want the property laws to reflect the obligation that other people have to society, then get started changing them now.
So, you are saying that if someone was dying and the very thing that will save their life is on your premisis but you weren't around you'd have the person arrested and you'd press charges ?
That isn't what I said, and more to the point, silly hypothetical cases are unreasonable. The very thing that someone needed to save someone else's life would not likely be in my house. The closest thing needed to save someone's life would most likely be found by calling 911. No, I do not have a telephone. #

We have gone from "my 2 year old daughter NEEDS medicine" to a dying person.

If your child needs medicine call 911. If someone is dying call 911. If I'm not in my house and you don't know me then you won't know where to find anything in my house and you will have much better luck shouting for help.

You cannot use these extreme cases to justify bending the property laws when it's convenient. I'm quite sure many of those who looted after katrina could legitimately claim "need".

Let's turn the poor little sick child example around and see how it plays.

Instead of a sick child we have a sick homeless person.

Instead of the father taking something from my house the homeless person has a friend shoplift some medicine from walmart.

The friend is not sick of course, and gets caught.

What is the response going to be?

How many people here would claim that this scenario is scavenging and not theft?

The original question is about definition. If you take something from my house without permission then it is theft. Need does not enter the equation. I have no more reason to believe nor care about someone else's sick child than walmart has to believe or care about an individual homeless person.

I like to cast it in these personal terms because it conveys the point much better than when we talk about corporations. It's always a sick child and some disaster that people feel that they can use to justify bending property laws for their convenience. Those same people frequently cannot see that those less fortunate have exactly the same perspective.

So coming back to my house and your dying friend. You'd better be able to justify your actions and, if you could, you're right, a judge would probably throw the case out. I suspect, however, that the homeless person above would not escape conviction. I equally suspect, that the probablity of your scenario happening are so small as to be moot.

So here's another scenario for you. There are a lot of people who are sick and or dying right now. They have no access to health insurance and no access to medical care.

How many of those people are you willing to carry on your medical plan?

How many of those people are you willing to pay for a doctor visit?

How is this situation any different from your situation?

Why should I be willing to let someone take something from me to save someone's life when you aren't willing to give to others to save their lives?

Do you seriously think that immediacy of need changes the situation?

Many forms of cancer can be cured relatively inexpensively if detected early enough yet cancer kills thousands, millions?, each year. So just by making sure everyone in the country has regular visits to a doctor we could save many "dying people" that no 911 call could ever save. By the time you are calling 911 for these folks, or breaking into my house, it's too late.

So is it ok for one person who doesn't have medical care to break into your house and take something that he can sell to pay for one doctor visit? You'll be saving a life of course, and the very thing he needs to save his life is in your posession.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Jan. 24 2007,17:40)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Jan. 23 2007,18:04)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Jan. 24 2007,10:48)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Jan. 22 2007,20:27)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Jan. 23 2007,18:52)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Jan. 22 2007,17:21)]Quote[/b] ]When does scavenging become thievery?

When you take something of value from someone out of want. Theivery
That's really too simple. Many people throw away things of value. Moreover, I don't care how hungry you are if you steal my property and I catch you, I'm pressing charges.

BTW: If you haven't heard of freecycle (http://www.freecycle.org/) you should check them out. There's probably a group in your neighborhood. Basically, they advocate giving things away rather than throwing things away.
Yeah it's simplified, and yes it is, by the letter of the law still wrong.

Hypothetically speaking... If your house was flooding, and you had abandoned it due to this natural disaster. If I was trapped in the neighborhood and I needed some sort of life-sustaining necessity that I was certain you had in your house. And if I had no other options and you weren't around to ask. Would you have me arrested for scavenging food or medicine for my 2 year old daughter?

That's a really far cry from breaking in to steal your TV because it's "there" and you're not, and I just "want to have it".
Yep, I would. You can't have the benefits of socialism on demand. If you want people to care about your two year old daughter when you're down and out then you have to demonstrate today that you care about others who are down and out.

As long as this country has billionares and homeless people, then there is no need for me personally to care about your problems. In a capitalist society it is my duty to act in my best financial interests and that includes putting you in jail for taking my belongings.

Now, if you want to suggest that we all have some responsibility to each other and that we band together to make sure our laws reflect that, then we have something to talk about.

The key point is that you cannot bend property laws to suit the convenience of the masses just because the fortune of the masses has changed. If you want the property laws to reflect the obligation that other people have to society, then get started changing them now.
So, you are saying that if someone was dying and the very thing that will save their life is on your premisis but you weren't around you'd have the person arrested and you'd press charges ?
That isn't what I said, and more to the point, silly hypothetical cases are unreasonable. The very thing that someone needed to save someone else's life would not likely be in my house. The closest thing needed to save someone's life would most likely be found by calling 911. No, I do not have a telephone.

We have gone from "my 2 year old daughter NEEDS medicine" to a dying person.

If your child needs medicine call 911. If someone is dying call 911. If I'm not in my house and you don't know me then you won't know where to find anything in my house and you will have much better luck shouting for help.

You cannot use these extreme cases to justify bending the property laws when it's convenient. I'm quite sure many of those who looted after katrina could legitimately claim "need".

Let's turn the poor little sick child example around and see how it plays.

Instead of a sick child we have a sick homeless person.

Instead of the father taking something from my house the homeless person has a friend shoplift some medicine from walmart.

The friend is not sick of course, and gets caught.

What is the response going to be?

How many people here would claim that this scenario is scavenging and not theft?

The original question is about definition. If you take something from my house without permission then it is theft. Need does not enter the equation. I have no more reason to believe nor care about someone else's sick child than walmart has to believe or care about an individual homeless person.

I like to cast it in these personal terms because it conveys the point much better than when we talk about corporations. It's always a sick child and some disaster that people feel that they can use to justify bending property laws for their convenience. Those same people frequently cannot see that those less fortunate have exactly the same perspective.

So coming back to my house and your dying friend. You'd better be able to justify your actions and, if you could, you're right, a judge would probably throw the case out. I suspect, however, that the homeless person above would not escape conviction. I equally suspect, that the probablity of your scenario happening are so small as to be moot.

So here's another scenario for you. There are a lot of people who are sick and or dying right now. They have no access to health insurance and no access to medical care.

How many of those people are you willing to carry on your medical plan?

How many of those people are you willing to pay for a doctor visit?

How is this situation any different from your situation?

Why should I be willing to let someone take something from me to save someone's life when you aren't willing to give to others to save their lives?

Do you seriously think that immediacy of need changes the situation?

Many forms of cancer can be cured relatively inexpensively if detected early enough yet cancer kills thousands, millions?, each year. So just by making sure everyone in the country has regular visits to a doctor we could save many "dying people" that no 911 call could ever save. By the time you are calling 911 for these folks, or breaking into my house, it's too late.

So is it ok for one person who doesn't have medical care to break into your house and take something that he can sell to pay for one doctor visit? You'll be saving a life of course, and the very thing he needs to save his life is in your posession.
There are levels of discretionary judgement that you have to apply in such cases. No static set of rules can define and apply to every possible given case.

If theres a giant tornado and the whole town is wrecked and some sick heart patient who needs heart and blood pressure meds because their prescription blew away and someone else who had their leg crushed by a 6000 lb tree trunk needs pain medicine and I kick in a portal to a drug store, grab the medicine they need and give it to them I consider that charity, good will, helping the victims, etc. and not stealing. On the other hand if I take some other patients medicine then i am stealing and putting someone else in potential jeopardy. Likewise, if I pass by a few electronics stores that have had their roofs and windows blown out and I stop in to take a few VCR's DVD players, computers and home entertainment systems for my personal enjoyment at home then that is stealing. On the other hand if I walk into an abandoned market and grab some bottled water, some gauze and bandages, and some food and baby formula to help some people who are stranded, injured, and hungry then I consider that again, helping the victims, giving aid to the needy, and not stealing.

I'd imagine we're on the same wavelength ?

[al2i]

Something that I find bothersome is that the oil companies have always donated their used PCs to charities, schools and whatnot, but the new rules about hazardous materials are so draconian that the company I work for simply makes pays for proper disposal. This means that our computers that are generally less than 3 years old when they are replaced, are literally ground into recycle. Such a waste. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[kb7dsd]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Jan. 24 2007,12:35)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Jan. 24 2007,17:40)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Jan. 23 2007,18:04)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Jan. 24 2007,10:48)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Jan. 22 2007,20:27)]Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Jan. 23 2007,18:52)]Quote[/b] (N3ATS @ Jan. 22 2007,17:21)]Quote[/b] ]When does scavenging become thievery?

When you take something of value from someone out of want. #Theivery
That's really too simple. Many people throw away things of value. Moreover, I don't care how hungry you are if you steal my property and I catch you, I'm pressing charges.

BTW: If you haven't heard of freecycle (http://www.freecycle.org/) you should check them out. There's probably a group in your neighborhood. Basically, they advocate giving things away rather than throwing things away.
Yeah it's simplified, and yes it is, by the letter of the law still wrong. #

Hypothetically speaking... #If your house was flooding, and you had abandoned it due to this natural disaster. #If I was trapped in the neighborhood and I needed some sort of life-sustaining necessity that I was certain you had in your house. #And if I had no other options and you weren't around to ask. #Would you have me arrested for scavenging food or medicine for my 2 year old daughter?

That's a really far cry from breaking in to steal your TV because it's "there" and you're not, and I just "want to have it".
Yep, I would. You can't have the benefits of socialism on demand. If you want people to care about your two year old daughter when you're down and out then you have to demonstrate today that you care about others who are down and out.

As long as this country has billionares and homeless people, then there is no need for me personally to care about your problems. In a capitalist society it is my duty to act in my best financial interests and that includes putting you in jail for taking my belongings.

Now, if you want to suggest that we all have some responsibility to each other and that we band together to make sure our laws reflect that, then we have something to talk about. #

The key point is that you cannot bend property laws to suit the convenience of the masses just because the fortune of the masses has changed. If you want the property laws to reflect the obligation that other people have to society, then get started changing them now.
So, you are saying that if someone was dying and the very thing that will save their life is on your premisis but you weren't around you'd have the person arrested and you'd press charges ?
That isn't what I said, and more to the point, silly hypothetical cases are unreasonable. The very thing that someone needed to save someone else's life would not likely be in my house. The closest thing needed to save someone's life would most likely be found by calling 911. No, I do not have a telephone. #

We have gone from "my 2 year old daughter NEEDS medicine" to a dying person.

If your child needs medicine call 911. If someone is dying call 911. If I'm not in my house and you don't know me then you won't know where to find anything in my house and you will have much better luck shouting for help.

You cannot use these extreme cases to justify bending the property laws when it's convenient. I'm quite sure many of those who looted after katrina could legitimately claim "need".

Let's turn the poor little sick child example around and see how it plays.

Instead of a sick child we have a sick homeless person.

Instead of the father taking something from my house the homeless person has a friend shoplift some medicine from walmart.

The friend is not sick of course, and gets caught.

What is the response going to be?

How many people here would claim that this scenario is scavenging and not theft?

The original question is about definition. If you take something from my house without permission then it is theft. Need does not enter the equation. I have no more reason to believe nor care about someone else's sick child than walmart has to believe or care about an individual homeless person.

I like to cast it in these personal terms because it conveys the point much better than when we talk about corporations. It's always a sick child and some disaster that people feel that they can use to justify bending property laws for their convenience. Those same people frequently cannot see that those less fortunate have exactly the same perspective.

So coming back to my house and your dying friend. You'd better be able to justify your actions and, if you could, you're right, a judge would probably throw the case out. I suspect, however, that the homeless person above would not escape conviction. I equally suspect, that the probablity of your scenario happening are so small as to be moot.

So here's another scenario for you. There are a lot of people who are sick and or dying right now. They have no access to health insurance and no access to medical care.

How many of those people are you willing to carry on your medical plan?

How many of those people are you willing to pay for a doctor visit?

How is this situation any different from your situation?

Why should I be willing to let someone take something from me to save someone's life when you aren't willing to give to others to save their lives?

Do you seriously think that immediacy of need changes the situation?

Many forms of cancer can be cured relatively inexpensively if detected early enough yet cancer kills thousands, millions?, each year. So just by making sure everyone in the country has regular visits to a doctor we could save many "dying people" that no 911 call could ever save. By the time you are calling 911 for these folks, or breaking into my house, it's too late.

So is it ok for one person who doesn't have medical care to break into your house and take something that he can sell to pay for one doctor visit? You'll be saving a life of course, and the very thing he needs to save his life is in your posession.
There are levels of discretionary judgement that you have to apply in such cases. No static set of rules can define and apply to every possible given case.

If theres a giant tornado and the whole town is wrecked and some sick heart patient who needs heart and blood pressure meds because their prescription blew away and someone else who had their leg crushed by a 6000 lb tree trunk needs pain medicine and I kick in a portal to a drug store, grab the medicine they need and give it to them I consider that charity, good will, helping the victims, etc. and not stealing. #On the other hand if I take some other patients medicine then i am stealing and putting someone else in potential jeopardy. Likewise, if I pass by a few electronics stores that have had their roofs and windows blown out and I stop in to take a few VCR's DVD players, computers and home entertainment systems for my personal enjoyment at home then that is stealing. On the other hand if I walk into an abandoned market and grab some bottled water, some gauze and bandages, and some food and baby formula to help some people who are stranded, injured, and hungry then I consider that again, helping the victims, giving aid to the needy, and not stealing.

I'd imagine we're on the same wavelength ?
Robin Hood was still a thief, even though he was a help to the needy. What did the thief on the cross steal? Why did he steal it, did he feed someone with nothing or was he selfish? He was still a thief and he was forgivin.

[K0RGR]

I know that the first article I read about this had the law wrong. That article stated that according to International salvage laws, whatever the people found on the beach was theirs - just as though they had found the abandoned ship at sea. Apparently, the police thought so too until the shipper's attorneys dragged out the correct (?) statute. I used the (?) because I suspect it will remain in dispute until a court rules otherwise. If the ship was actually abandoned, there might be a different opinion.

Apparently the old "finder's keeper's, loser's weepers" rhyme has been outmoded by modern law.