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N2RJ
01-19-2007, 05:51 PM
I hear some nonstandard CW and wonder if there's anything anyone can point me to that lists all of them.

For example, instead of 8 dits to signify an error, a station will send a series of slow dits to imitate a typewriter backing up.

Anything else?

N8CPA
01-19-2007, 06:03 PM
I don't know about a complete list, but if you Google "DX and cut numbers," it will turn up some.

And NMN used to use the error signal to announce a new cycle of transmissions--frequency pairs, forecasts, code practice sessions, etc.

KY5U
01-19-2007, 06:07 PM
Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Jan. 19 2007,10:51)]I hear some nonstandard CW and wonder if there's anything anyone can point me to that lists all of them.

For example, instead of 8 dits to signify an error, a station will send a series of slow dits to imitate a typewriter backing up.

Anything else?
Just the modern Amateur, uninhibited by traditions and good operating practice, showing us how it is REALLY supposed to be done.

AC3P
01-19-2007, 06:12 PM
Many ops will send a ? to indicate a sending error.

WA2ZDY
01-19-2007, 06:18 PM
"?" also means a repeat is coming, while "R" is used as a decimal point.

K7KBN
01-19-2007, 06:18 PM
If by "nonstandard" you mean characters that aren't in the U.S. English litany of Morse characters, you might be hearing a station outside the U.S. Or, you might be hearing a station inside talking to a station outside. Other languages have their own written alphabets and syllabaries, and their own "Morse" characters for each.

Japanese is a good example. Their "Morse" characters each represent a SYLLABLE rather than just one letter. To send the word 'sayonara' in English requires eight characters, whereas in "wabun", the Japanese name for their code, it only requires four: SA, YO, NA and RA.

Spanish has a few of its own, like the . Russian has several of its own as well.

W1SK
01-19-2007, 06:22 PM
Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Jan. 19 2007,10:51)]I hear some nonstandard CW and wonder if there's anything anyone can point me to that lists all of them.

For example, instead of 8 dits to signify an error, a station will send a series of slow dits to imitate a typewriter backing up.

Anything else?
I sometimes hear a station send the letter "I" a few times to indicate an error. I have mostly heard this on NTS nets for some reason.


73,
Joe

K0HWY
01-19-2007, 06:34 PM
Dahs that are six times longer than dits... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

K7JBQ
01-19-2007, 06:38 PM
The dahs are probably fine. Chances are it's the dits that are too short. This happens when trying to use a bug at a speed considerably lower than it's design capability.

It's one reason I keep a set of paddles right next to the bug.

73,
Bill

K0HWY
01-19-2007, 06:40 PM
...and the reason I use a straight key... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

W8ZNX
01-19-2007, 06:48 PM
non standard
for many fast ops
is standard

eight dits for error is a waste of time

dit dit works fb

heck why error sign anyways

just waste of time to send error
when you blow a in context word

what i would like to know
is why so many ops
act like qsk
was not invented over 45 years ago

it's as if they all
need to throw 3 switches
and wait for the receiver to come back on line

i try to make things short and simple
almost never use punctuation
don't bother sending calls
start and end of each transmission

just send BK
qsk is not that hard
can be lots of fun

once you give up all the filler bs
you can get down to having a real conversation

don't need to make old buzzard transmissions

bk

N8CPA
01-19-2007, 06:56 PM
As ZNX alludes, I think most ops understand that any number of E's that breaks the rhythm of the rest of the stream means an error. But I kind of like that typewriter backspace analogy.

W8ZNX
01-19-2007, 07:05 PM
but still find myself falling in to
old buzzard transmission trap

mac

N2RJ
01-19-2007, 07:11 PM
Good to know. What exactly is an "old buzzard" transmission though?

DJ1YFK
01-19-2007, 07:29 PM
When I started to work CW, right after I got my license, I was often confused by people sending 'nonstandard' CW.

Most remarkably, I had never heard of abbreviated numbers (because I was completely self taught in CW, and had actually never heard a *real* CW transmission before the day when I made my first QSO!).

So when I made my first QSOs, and the other station told me he was running "2T Watts", I was quite impressed, because I thought it meant 2 thousand Watts...

Another thing that bothered me were the different ways how people indicate a correction. Of course, most references will say, 8 dots is a proper correction, but you hardly hear that on the air.

Just a few dits seems to be very common now, but some (especially englishmen) seem to send a "?" for a correction, which - when I was first confronted with - always made me blush because I thought there was some question which I didn't understand! Some people (mainly DLs, I think) send the prosign VE (...-.) after a mistake, but I am not sure about the origin of that.

Another phenomenon on the list of nonstandard CW signs is that many operators change a 'R' (for 'roger') to 'EN'. When I first heard it, I found it confusing - now I observe myself doing it sometimes, it just has a nice rhythm.

Then there are the numerous characters which are only used locally; like German umlauts, cyrillic CW, French accented characters, but also things like exclamation marks (..--., mainly used by Scandinavian stations), apostrophs (.----., mainly used by French stations but also heard from English stations now and then) and quotation marks, brackets (.-..-., -.--., -.--.-, only heard from Germans so far).

Sometimes people are very surprised and grateful if you use their 'localized' CW characters. The same is true for some CW local abbreviations...

Like any other language, CW has some local dialects, while it's still "mutually intelligible", and that makes it very interesting.

CW4ever!

AB8MA
01-19-2007, 07:56 PM
Quote[/b] (w8znx @ Jan. 19 2007,18:48)]qsk is not that hard
can be lots of fun
I like hearing the "hi hi" returning during my transmission. Truly interactive.

AG3Y
01-19-2007, 08:18 PM
Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Jan. 19 2007,15:11)]Good to know. What exactly is an "old buzzard" transmission though?
An "old buzzard" transmission is on in which you can get up from the operating position, go to the kitchen and pour yourself a cup of coffee, add cream and sugar, maybe get a cookie from the cookie jar, come back to the operating position, settle back into your easy chair, prop your feet back on the edge of the desk, and drink half the coffee before the "old buzzard" at the other end turns it back to you.

Is that about right, Mac ? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

BTW, "OB" transmissions are not necessarily limited to CW, either. I have heard many of them in the "Ancient Modulation" mode !

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif 73, Jim

AC3P
01-19-2007, 08:27 PM
Quote[/b] ]it's as if they all
need to throw 3 switches
and wait for the receiver to come back on line


Last year I assembled a vintage CW station with separate XMTR and RCVR. Not having a relay I put in a manual switch for T/R.

After a few QSOs I began to remember why I bought a transceiver in the first place.

While it is fun to twittle the dials and throw the switches you can loose a lot of QSOs when trying to work a pile-up.

KA4DPO
01-19-2007, 08:44 PM
Every now and then I fire up the Harvey Wells and SX-71 just for fun. I have a Dow Key relay on the back of the SX-71 and just need to throw the standby switch to activate it. While it's not QSK it doesn't take long to throw the switch. It wouldn't work very well in a contest now days but for casual operating it's not bad. It's fun to run the boat anchors once in a while and the crystal filter on the SX ain't all that bad for selectivity.

I only use standard CW by the way and you can accuse me of OB operating but I also send a short burst of dits if I screw up (which I never do of course)....

John.

W8ZNX
01-19-2007, 08:48 PM
Quote[/b] (ac3p @ Jan. 19 2007,13:27)]
Quote[/b] ]it's as if they all
need to throw 3 switches
and wait for the receiver to come back on line


Last year I assembled a vintage CW station with separate XMTR and RCVR. Not having a relay I put in a manual switch for T/R.

After a few QSOs I began to remember why I bought a transceiver in the first place.

While it is fun to twittle the dials and throw the switches you can loose a lot of QSOs when trying to work a pile-up.
its easy to get it down to one switch

any old relay can be used for ant change over
have even used P and B ice cube relays
from radio shack

have used standard DPDT
toggle switch
for ant change over
who cares about inp lump
does not matter with a glow bug lash up

old and hb glow bug gear on cw
mix and match rigs so much
that i put up a receive antenna
am near on to full break in
just turn down rec gain

make sure you disconect the rec ant
when running real pwr
or you will blow the front end out of your rec

now keep a tag on the plate switch
of the Loudenboomer
so i don't blow out any more receivers

pile ups heck
when running rigs like the 70 something years old
RME 69 i try to stay at least 20 kc away
from any pile ups

Mac

N2RJ
01-19-2007, 09:11 PM
Quote[/b] (ac3p @ Jan. 19 2007,13:12)]Many ops will send a ? to indicate a sending error.
I've only used "?" as a substitute for "QRZ?" in contests, but never as a substitute for "error."

So that would explain why some people put "?" in their QSO's so much.

N8CPA
01-19-2007, 09:31 PM
"?" is used to indicate "I repeat." #Some Navy and Air Force vets have told me that, even on voice, they would say 'IMI' in lieu of the phrase. #And on CW, NMN actually spelled it out in CW as IMI when it was used in that context--something like "QRU? IMI QRU?"

AB9LZ
01-19-2007, 09:38 PM
Quote[/b] (N8CPA @ Jan. 19 2007,11:56)]As ZNX alludes, I think most ops understand that any number of E's that breaks the rhythm of the rest of the stream means an error. #But I kind of like that typewriter backspace analogy.
It's what I do... and just about every other op I have had a qso with has been doing the same to indicate an error, in fact I don't think I've ever heard eight dits...

Breaking the rhythm gets the point across quite well.

73 m.

N8CPA
01-19-2007, 09:43 PM
Quote[/b] (ac3p @ Jan. 19 2007,16:27)]
Quote[/b] ]it's as if they all
need to throw 3 switches
and wait for the receiver to come back on line


Last year I assembled a vintage CW station with separate XMTR and RCVR. Not having a relay I put in a manual switch for T/R.

After a few QSOs I began to remember why I bought a transceiver in the first place.

While it is fun to twittle the dials and throw the switches you can loose a lot of QSOs when trying to work a pile-up.
My first genuine SW receiver [DX-160] had a socket on the back for connecting a T/R switch. The manual even recommended a foot switch.

DJ1YFK
01-19-2007, 09:48 PM
AB2MH

Quote[/b] ]I've only used "?" as a substitute for "QRZ?" in contests, but never as a substitute for "error."

Even worse, some use it instead of 'QRL?', but that's another story :-)

W5HTW
01-19-2007, 11:10 PM
Quote[/b] (N8CPA @ Jan. 19 2007,14:31)]"?" is used to indicate "I repeat." Some Navy and Air Force vets have told me that, even on voice, they would say 'IMI' in lieu of the phrase. And on CW, NMN actually spelled it out in CW as IMI when it was used in that context--something like "QRU? IMI QRU?"
Military procedures used the INTerogatory sign, preceeding the comment. That is: INT QRU K The "INT" is all run together as a single character, like "IMI" for question mark.

In these procedures, the "IMI" (question mark) is used as a repeating signal. We hams use it that way, too, fairly often such as QTH MCINTOSH ? MCINTOSH. The "?" is used as a repeating signal. This practice is common in military HF CW nets (though none exist anymore!! Ha!)

For a semi-formal error signal, many hams, and most military ops use the double I. As in: QTH MCINTASH I I MCINTOSH ? MCINTOSH.

Technically to correct an error you return to the last correctly spelled word and repeat it, as you then repeat the incorrectly spelled word right after it.

In military semi-casual voice operation, a period was PD and a comma was CMM. We abbreviated these as, in ending a sentence: GOING BACK HOME PERIOD POODLE DOG Or in LOCATION MCINTOSH COMMA CHARLIE MIKE MIKE NEW MEXICO In other words we spelled out the appreviation. Of course in more formal traffic the period (PD) was spelled PAPPA DELTA and not POODLE DOG.

In your sample: QRU? IMI QRU? the IMI is the same as the "?"! So that comes out as; QRU ? ? QRU?

By the way, on the QRZ news page, in the Newsline column, there is an interesting paragraph about the origin of Q signals. But oddly, the writer suggests "QRL" is not being used anymore. Hmmm. Not sure what bands he operates! In early amateur use QRK and QSA were common, before the expanded RST system was set up for hams. RST was never used in non-ham radio. QSA 1 to 5 for signal strength and QRK 1 to 5 for readability. This resulted in the old "gotcha five by five" which meant perfectly.

The military still uses that system, QSA5 QRK5 is a perfect signal.

On the other hand, Public Safety uses 10-1 and 10-2, with 10-1 meaning unreadable and 10-2 being perfectly readable! No between the lines. So you hear the dispatchers saying "You're sorta 10-1. You're a little bit 10-1. You're very 10-1." Maybe they should switch to "10-1A, 10-1B etc??"

Of course, they are dropping ten codes anyway, so it's a moot point, I guess!

Ed

WA9SVD
01-19-2007, 11:43 PM
Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Jan. 19 2007,11:07)]
Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Jan. 19 2007,10:51)]I hear some nonstandard CW and wonder if there's anything anyone can point me to that lists all of them.

For example, instead of 8 dits to signify an error, a station will send a series of slow dits to imitate a typewriter backing up.

Anything else?
Just the modern Amateur, uninhibited by traditions and good operating practice, showing us how it is REALLY supposed to be done.
In times past, the ARRL Handbook had a table of "cut letters and numbers," used by some telegraphers to save time. It's NOT ILLEGAL to use such shortcuts, as long as the full International Morse Code is used for YOUR identification.
Also realize that other languages have Morse characters that do not correspond to the standard English language. Use of such characters is perfectly legal also, as long as you ID in standard Int'l Morse ENGLISH. Any other correspondence between two stations (be it via Morse, voice, or anything) can be in any language, be it German, Norse, Swahili, or Klingon. Only the ID has to be in standard Int'l Morse.
The appropriateness of using "cut letters and numbers" is a different matter, but not a legal issue.

KE5FRF
01-20-2007, 12:00 AM
Well, I think the idea that we convey about keeping procedures on phone as conversational as possible is basically the same on CW, especially when an op is comfortable with that mode. Yes, we have prosigns and Q-codes, but what are their function? To make transmissions more efficient.

I think if three slow dits gets the poin accross that a mistake was made, its just fine. It certainly didn't take long for me to figure out what that meant. And as Mac said, why add to the length of your transmission?

And besides, while I agree that CW ops should persevere at making their code as uniform as possible with spacing...I think slight nuances and differences keep it interesting.

In other words, could you imagine if ever voice QSO you ever had was with someone who had the 2 meter repeater voice? I mean, each and every god forsaken ham sounded like a computer generated man, how boring would that be? I could handle the woman's voice that announces the time, but the man? LOL

Well, I think little variances and nuances in CW also help to keep it interesting.

CU2JT
01-20-2007, 09:49 AM
Quote[/b] (ab8ma @ Jan. 19 2007,12:56)]
Quote[/b] (w8znx @ Jan. 19 2007,18:48)]qsk is not that hard
can be lots of fun
I like hearing the "hi hi" returning during my transmission. Truly interactive.
I don't like to listen to the endless clatter from all relays when on QSK.

K7KBN
01-20-2007, 04:16 PM
Navy Morse procedures, at least in the 1960 era, specifically excluded the question mark: it did not exist.

Those who drafted outgoing messages were required to eliminate question marks. "What is the name of the sailor who fell overboard?" would be changed to "Provide the name ...", and so on.

Of course, with teletype replacing CW in that era, question marks became acceptable. However, I remember some emergency CW communications with a civilian ship during which I (as an E-4) had to convince our Comm Officer (an O-5) that the rest of the world did in fact use question marks.

K7JBQ
01-20-2007, 04:49 PM
Quote[/b] (cu2jt @ Jan. 20 2007,02:49)]I don't like to listen to the endless clatter from all relays when on QSK.
Ditto. That's why I only use it in the pileups.

73,
Bill

N8CPA
01-20-2007, 05:10 PM
Quote[/b] (k7kbn @ Jan. 20 2007,12:16)]Navy Morse procedures, at least in the 1960 era, specifically excluded the question mark: #it did not exist.

Those who drafted outgoing messages were required to eliminate question marks. #"What is the name of the sailor who fell overboard?" would be changed to "Provide the name ...", and so on.

Of course, with teletype replacing CW in that era, question marks became acceptable. #However, I remember some emergency CW communications with a civilian ship during which I (as an E-4) had to convince our Comm Officer (an O-5) that the rest of the world did in fact use question marks.
What I heard was late in the use of CW. It may have varied according to who was at the keyboard. Between
'91 and '95, when they made the last Morse transmission, there was one NMN op who was a slow typist. When he/she was on duty, you'd hear individual words sent at about 25WPM, with very long spaces in between:

"CQ CQ CQ DE NMN / NAM / NAR"

etc.

I still miss hearing those NUKO's! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

WA2ZDY
01-20-2007, 07:00 PM
x
Quote[/b] (ac3p @ Jan. 19 2007,15:27)]
Quote[/b] ]it's as if they all
need to throw 3 switches
and wait for the receiver to come back on line


Last year I assembled a vintage CW station with separate XMTR and RCVR. Not having a relay I put in a manual switch for T/R.

After a few QSOs I began to remember why I bought a transceiver in the first place.

While it is fun to twittle the dials and throw the switches you can loose a lot of QSOs when trying to work a pile-up.
And yet we used these setups as Novices, made plenty of contacts and have never had as much fun since.

I remember the drill perfectly even now, 32 years later: # VFO on, receiver to standby, throw knife switch for antenna, plate on. # Hand AWAY from plate switch THEN reach for key.

When I replaced the 6L6 with the Globe Scout, W2OJJ gave me a 110vac coil open frame relay for the antenna. #One less step - goodbye knife switch!

I am proud to say that I could take my Novice station today, or anyone else's, and be on the air with no problem. #Truely understanding how to do things made it so much more fun.

For the record though, I like full break-in enough to disregard the relays. # And those in the TS480 are nearly silent anyway. #But the big P&B relay I had with my HG303/VF-1/HQ120 station? #No break-in there: CLUNK!

KA5S
01-21-2007, 05:10 PM
Quote[/b] (N8CPA @ Jan. 19 2007,17:31)]"?" is used to indicate "I repeat." Some Navy and Air Force vets have told me that, even on voice, they would say 'IMI' in lieu of the phrase. And on CW, NMN actually spelled it out in CW as IMI when it was used in that context--something like "QRU? IMI QRU?"
In military parlance, "repeat" means, "Shoot em again, Charlie."

Shot, over!

On MARS we use "I say again" or "say again" instead. For CW, (no longer used) and printing modes, the prosign INT is used instead of a Morse (and often instead of an RTTY) question mark, e.g.: "INT ZBO K" meaning "Have you any traffic? Over." IMI -- the Morse question mark - was used for "say again": "QSY D2G IMI D2G K" meaning "Change to frequency [D2G from matrix], I say again, [D2G from matrix]. Over."

I don't know if the active duty force still uses all the NATO standard operating signals, prowords and prosigns, but in 1983 a lot of the voice radio operators in my unit in Germany had trouble with them. MARS was by comparison quite proficient. I can't claim that for myself, these days!

Check out the link for various Morse codes. (http://homepages.cwi.nl/~dik/english/codes/morse.html)

Cortland
KA5S

KA5S
01-21-2007, 05:16 PM
Quote[/b] (W5HTW @ Jan. 19 2007,19:10)]The military still uses that system, QSA5 QRK5 is a perfect signal.
I sent that report on a MARS frequency just today. Hardly seems necessary on MT63.


Cortland
KA5S

K4KYV
01-22-2007, 05:08 AM
GUHOR GUHOR GUHOR

KC8BOP
01-22-2007, 07:56 AM
Has anyone written a "style manual" for CW?

KY5U
01-23-2007, 08:13 PM
By George Burk (SK)

I still can recall that supreme day of all,
and the thrill when I knew I had passed
the dreadful exam that would make me a Ham,
and boy, I was now one at last!

I could then almost shout and my chest just swelled out,
and my soul was enraptured with song,
and it made me so proud I then and there vowed,
I'd never do anything wrong.

...

But to be really fair, I will have to declare,
These years of hard work deserve thanks;
For I've learned what to send from beginning to end,
Till now I just fill in the blanks.

For I say to each fan, "All ok there old man,
ES TNX FER THE RPT or CALL,
YER Blankety sigs, RST blank, blank blank RIGS
HR IN blank; WX blank" and that's all.