Generals Beware

[N5PVL]

As noted elsewhere, the "something for nothing" crowd who were stymied by morse code at 5wpm have just been given HF privileges by the FCC... But what did they actually get?

CW privileges they cannot utilize for the obvious reason on 15 and 40 meters - and SSB privilieges on 10 meters at the very bottom of the sunspot cycle.

Soon, very soon these "something for nothing" folk will be figuring out that they got what they worked for - nothing - and will then attack the next barrier they perceive, the test for General.

"But the General test is no more difficult than the Tech exam!" you might say. "Other than memorizing a different set of frequencies, it's about the same!"

Precisely! - And that is the very arguement that the "something for nothing" crowd will parrot over and over when they get organized to attack the General exam.

The whole idea is that they want it all, without ever having to learn anything and most especially not to have to take any more exams!

And when this reorganization comes about, who do you think will be bootstrapped into whose liscense class? - Considering the fact that the two are now essentially the same except for operating frequencies?

Generals Beware!

For what it may be worth, I'm studying for my Extra. ( That's a hint, by the way. )

[w5lda]

You basically said the same thing in another topic. Trying to run your post count up or is your record stuck?

[N5PVL]

I mentioned the fact that the new nocode HF folks aren't really getting much, but the topic here ( Generals beware ) was not mentioned anywhere ( by me ) prior to this post.

Trying to cover up a reading disability?

Muddy the waters a little bit?

Was there something that you did not want to hear, and most importantly, did not want others to hear?

Troll off, old boy! # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

I do appreciate though, your demonstration of the kind of attitude that has no place in amateur radio.

[KI4NGN]

HF is going to be seeing new Generals and Extras who have taken the current written exams but have not had to demonstrate some skill with only one of many modes of operation.

Reading the FCC text you'll see that they saw no reason to treat or consider telegraphy differently than non-telegraphy. Reading that same text, particularly their reasoning for rejecting some proposals, and you'll see that their position is such that the written tests are not destined to be removed. There were proposals to give Techs more HF privileges. The FCC said no, they can get more privileges by taking the General exam. That's fairly black and white.

Mike

[N5PVL]

Such a trusting soul!

When the General ticket comes under attack just as I predict, what will be your reaction then?

You won't have to wait very long to find out, I betcha.

Don't get me wrong, I hate to see it happen but I call them as I see them in any case.

At any rate, the expanded phone privileges for Extras is starting to make an awful lot of ( awful ) sense now, in light of my maniacal conspiracy theory.

[N8CPA]

And NCI & ilk twenty years ago were claiming no interest in HF at all. Then they claimed they only objected to speed tests above 5WPM.

Have they announced they've disbanded yet?

[KI4NGN]

I'll react to the attack if and when it happens. Some may in fact try to, but this doesn't mean that the FCC will change its mind.

Yea, I guess I am a trusting soul. It also feels better to think positively about the future than the alternative. That's not a head-in-the-sand attitude either, because feeling one way or the other is not going to change anything.

"At any rate, the expanded phone privileges for Extras is starting to make an awful lot of ( awful ) sense now, in light of my maniacal conspiracy theory."

I suppose you're right. I imagine that the FCC has known for 3 years that they'd likely be removing the skill test, and that one result of that would likely be an increase in phone use. I disagree with the word conspiracy, would prefer to think of it as logical planning.

Mike

[N5PVL]

An active, engaged ham would argue with that. What you are talking about only flies if you are just along for the ride.

[PE1RDW]

Quote[/b] (N8CPA @ Dec. 22 2006,13:18)]And NCI & ilk twenty years ago were claiming no interest in HF at all. #Then they claimed they only objected to speed tests above 5WPM.

Have they announced they've disbanded yet?
The NCI has always been aiming for elimination of all code tests world wide, it's no code international afterall.
The organisation still doesn't care about HF they only care about tests.
Why would they disband, there are still plenty of countries waiting for their code tests to be dropped, I know some americans have trouble understanding the word international but I expect hams to know better.

I'm not sure who it was that was objecting to speeds above 5wpm 20 years ago but it can't be NCI because they where founded in 1997

It might be good to read the letter of introduction dating 1 july 1998 (http://www.nocode.org/articles/NCI-2a_2post.html) before attacking them with statements that are easely disproven

[KI4NGN]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Dec. 22 2006,04:34)]An active, engaged ham would argue with that. What you are talking about only flies if you are just along for the ride.
Argue about what Charles? With whom?

All I said was that I have a positive attitude about the future. That means that I am along for the ride? What ride?

What is it that you are fighting now Charles?

[w2nsf]

Troll, troll, troll, trooooooollllllllllll.............FLAME ON!

[N8CPA]

"I'm not sure who it was that was objecting to speeds above 5wpm 20 years ago but it can't be NCI because they where founded in 1997."

'97 might be the date of the charter but the mindset pre-existed the organization. I first heard the name of the organization in '93 at the Dayton Hamvention. I had already been licensed 14 years at that point, and it was my first Hamvention visit.

I was surprised that they were even interested in HF, at all, based on their pitches prior to '91. The pitch they were peddling at the time I first heard of them was that they thought the speed should be no higher than 5WPM.

They still peddle snakeoil of a constantly changing recipe. If you buy it, I have a tower in Paris to sell you.

[W0LC]

Quote[/b] (kd5vsg @ Dec. 22 2006,03:36)]You basically said the same thing in another topic. Trying to run your post count up or is your record stuck?
Could say the same of yourself, JEM, et al of the NCI crowd. Same old (tiresome) rhetoric without basis.

What does the NCI crowd and its drones have to focus on now? Charlie is probably correct.

His post has merit and basis for concern.

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Dec. 22 2006,06:27)]I'll react to the attack if and when it happens. Some may in fact try to, but this doesn't mean that the FCC will change its mind.

Yea, I guess I am a trusting soul. It also feels better to think positively about the future than the alternative. That's not a head-in-the-sand attitude either, because feeling one way or the other is not going to change anything.

"At any rate, the expanded phone privileges for Extras is starting to make an awful lot of ( awful ) sense now, in light of my maniacal conspiracy theory."

I suppose you're right. I imagine that the FCC has known for 3 years that they'd likely be removing the skill test, and that one result of that would likely be an increase in phone use. I disagree with the word conspiracy, would prefer to think of it as logical planning.

Mike
The attack is already happening.

People are already saying that the test should be reduced to regulations and safety, and there should only be one class of license.

[W0LC]

I suspect the next step will be for NCI to change to NCT, No Test International. Afterall, that requires some effort of newbie/wannbes and that just isn't fair. That is oppressive!

They should have the right to purchase radio gear and operate it.

The test is hindering the advancement of the "radio art" and should not be treated any differently then CB radio or any other radio service.

Think that is far fetched?

Doubt it.

[wa5tts]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Dec. 22 2006,03:40)]I do appreciate though, your demonstration of the kind of attitude that has no place in amateur radio.
Of coarse your attitude does?

[kj3n]

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Dec. 22 2006,06:27)]I imagine that the FCC has known for 3 years that they'd likely be removing the skill test....
They've known longer than that. About 6 years now, I believe.

Go look at the R&O released when the 2000 restructuring took place. The only reason they kept 5 WPM was because of the international requirement.

[K7JEM]

Hey Charles,

Why would you have to study for the extra? I have been told many times that today's extra is easier than the novice I took in 1974, and that was a simple test.

I'm surprised you're not already an extra, I guess "lazy" and "lack of motivation" go deeper than just NCTs.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Joe

[k6jpd]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Dec. 22 2006,03:29)]..."But the General test is no more difficult than the Tech exam!" you might say. #it's about the same!"
Precisely!
i really don't see your point. by your own comment, the gen written exam is about the same as the tech written exam.
ok............ sooooooo, if they have passed basicly the same degree of difficulity exam, why should they have a problem with the gen written? #duhhhhhh!

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q239/lippripper/th_images1.jpg

[K7JEM]

Quote[/b] (k6jpd @ Dec. 22 2006,08:24)]Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Dec. 22 2006,03:29)]..."But the General test is no more difficult than the Tech exam!" you might say. it's about the same!"
Precisely!
i really don't see your point. by your own comment, the gen written exam is about the same as the tech written exam.
ok............ sooooooo, if they have passed basicly the same degree of difficulity exam, why should they have a problem with the gen written? duhhhhhh!

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q239/lippripper/th_images1.jpg
His contention is that the two exams are similar, therefore those with the lower class license will demand general privs because they have basically passed the same exam. There are many people that feel this way, and it was proposed by several petitions, to some degree.

But the FCC rejected the arguments presented in those petitions, just as they rejected the pro code arguments. To change something now would require a fundamental rethink on the part of the FCC, else it won't happen.

Not a bad idea, but it's time may never come. The FCC says it isn't too difficult for a tech to study to upgrade to general, and that will give them expanded HF privs.

Joe

[KI4ITV]

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Dec. 22 2006,03:23)]Hey Charles,

Why would you have to study for the extra? I have been told many times that today's extra is easier than the novice I took in 1974, and that was a simple test.

I'm surprised you're not already an extra, I guess "lazy" and "lack of motivation" go deeper than just NCTs.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Joe
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
I was wondering when this would come up.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Dec. 22 2006,08:23)]Hey Charles,

Why would you have to study for the extra? I have been told many times that today's extra is easier than the novice I took in 1974, and that was a simple test.

Joe
k7jem-I'm surprised you're not already an extra, I guess "lazy" and "lack of motivation" go deeper than just NCTs.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------( oh no #pay Back is Rough #I see ,good post joe,73 Bill kd4mxe http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[K0HWY]

Gentlemen, gentlemen.... put your trust in the FCC. They will do what's best for us. I mean, look what they've done for us in the past 15 years. They're here to help us. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'm with you Charles. Someone is going to get bent over and their license class starts with a G. But, the rest of us will pay dearly as well. If this is ham radio's highway of progress, why are we all driving in reverse?

[KI4NGN]

Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Dec. 22 2006,07:12)]Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Dec. 22 2006,06:27)]I'll react to the attack if and when it happens. Some may in fact try to, but this doesn't mean that the FCC will change its mind.

Yea, I guess I am a trusting soul. It also feels better to think positively about the future than the alternative. That's not a head-in-the-sand attitude either, because feeling one way or the other is not going to change anything.

"At any rate, the expanded phone privileges for Extras is starting to make an awful lot of ( awful ) sense now, in light of my maniacal conspiracy theory."

I suppose you're right. I imagine that the FCC has known for 3 years that they'd likely be removing the skill test, and that one result of that would likely be an increase in phone use. I disagree with the word conspiracy, would prefer to think of it as logical planning.

Mike
The attack is already happening.

People are already saying that the test should be reduced to regulations and safety, and there should only be one class of license.
So what? You call that an attack? I call that people expressing their opinions just like everyone else.

I believe that I have already expressed, based on the official words in black and white, that the FCC does not appear to be of that mindset.

I'll worry when I see the FCC considering it. Until then it is just some people expressing their opinions, and I don't care about them any more than I care about those who insist on degrading and insulting their fellow hams just because they haven't taken a skill test.

If and when that day should arrive, there is nothing that you or Charles or anyone else who is readying for some fight will have been able to do to prevent it. There is no one for you to present your side of a case to until there is a case being considered. You guys are appearing to be more and more paranoid, like there's some conspiracy (PVL's own word) to destroy ham radio as you know it.

Don't you get it? If the FCC was a part of some plan to do away with ham radio, to change it beyond recognition, they could do that any time they wanted!

Charles is so convinced about the conspiracy involving the (as he called it) the something for nothing crowd. The FCC could have easily leaned in the direction of your paranoia with this last ruling, and they did not. There was an explicit proposal to give techs more HF privileges. That would have been the perfect time for them to partake in this conspiracy, but they did not. What part of that are you missing or just don't understand?

You know, this is getting silly. You guys seem to need to have some sort of a fight to survive, something to be afraid of. Your trying to create an issue where one doesn't exist based on your fear that it will.

Go ahead, live in fear, you seem to thrive on it. I can only hope that you don't infect too many naive people.

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (K0HWY @ Dec. 22 2006,09:47)]I'm with you Charles. Someone is going to get bent over and their license class starts with a G. But, the rest of us will pay dearly as well. If this is ham radio's highway of progress, ?
k0hwy -Gentlemen, gentlemen.... put your trust in the FCC. They will do what's best for us. I mean, look what they've done for us in the past 15 years. They're here to help us. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------( well there are a lot of people #that is glad the fcc is good to us and here to help us )-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------k0hwy--why are we all driving in reverse-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------( well I am #not driving in Reverse if you are #then put her #in forward #and #lets Roll on , &73 Bill kd4mxe http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[N8CPA]

Quote[/b] (W0LC @ Dec. 22 2006,10:12)]I suspect the next step will be for NCI to change to NCT, No Test International. #Afterall, that requires some effort of newbie/wannbes and that just isn't fair. #That is oppressive!

They should have the right to purchase radio gear and operate it.

The test is hindering the advancement of the "radio art" and should not be treated any differently then CB radio or any other radio service.

Think that is far fetched?

Doubt it.
And type acceptance will hinge on whether or not the XCVR carton features a self operating box cutter.

[k6jpd]

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Dec. 22 2006,08:47)]Quote[/b] (k6jpd @ Dec. 22 2006,08:24)]Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Dec. 22 2006,03:29)]..."But the General test is no more difficult than the Tech exam!" you might say. #it's about the same!"
Precisely!
i really don't see your point. by your own comment, the gen written exam is about the same as the tech written exam.
ok............ sooooooo, if they have passed basicly the same degree of difficulity exam, why should they have a problem with the gen written? #duhhhhhh!

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q239/lippripper/th_images1.jpg
His contention is that the two exams are similar, therefore those with the lower class license will demand general privs because they have basically passed the same exam. There are many people that feel this way, and it was proposed by several petitions, to some degree.

But the FCC rejected the arguments presented in those petitions, just as they rejected the pro code arguments. To change something now would require a fundamental rethink on the part of the FCC, else it won't happen.

Not a bad idea, but it's time may never come. The FCC says it isn't too difficult for a tech to study to upgrade to general, and that will give them expanded HF privs.

Joe
[QUOTE]

"The FCC says it isn't too difficult for a tech to study to upgrade to general"

exactly correct Joe. many TECH's in fact have already passed the written gen and are ready to sit for and to pass the next upgrade exam. if he takes too long to study for his extra, then he stands a good chance of being passed by a motivated current TECH http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q239/lippripper/th_dead_horse1.jpg

[K7JEM]

Many techs have already passed their extra tests, and many more will as soon as this becomes rule. We will see many techs upgrade to general and some to extra within a few days of the rule change.

Welcome aboard!

Joe

[K0HWY]

Yes, welcome aboard. You will find your life vests at ... Nevermind, it's unsinkable. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[K6UEY]

If you think about it the FCC has never been known to reverse it's decisions and go back down the same roads.
In the beginning The Technician was the same test that the General took. The difference was the skill test was only 5 wpm code for technician and 13 Wpm for General.The priviledges however were dramatic, the Technician had NO code below 50 Mcs,and NO HF priviledges. The FCC watered down the Tech test to match the priviledges.With the abolishment of the Novice ticket the Technician is now the entry level test. By merging the Technician and the General they abolish one more level of test leaving only General and Extra.You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the course being taken. The eventual merge of the Extra and General brings it to no class Amateur Radio. The final step then to merge Part 95 service and Part97 service and thay NO LONGER have a reason to baby sit Amateur Radio !! In my opinion that is the final goal.Everyone is PC at the bottom of the barrel ,where all the sludge eventually will collect !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[ab8ro]

Quote[/b] (W0LC @ Dec. 21 2006,08:12)]I suspect the next step will be for NCI to change to NCT, No Test International. #Afterall, that requires some effort of newbie/wannbes and that just isn't fair. #That is oppressive!

They should have the right to purchase radio gear and operate it.

The test is hindering the advancement of the "radio art" and should not be treated any differently then CB radio or any other radio service.

Think that is far fetched?

Doubt it.
NCT = No Test International ?

Come again? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[KC0PKA]

WOW! as a new ham, I have heard a lot of bad feelings about current issues and dont think this is the way to do it?
We are all in this togather and it is what it is at this point.
I was under the impression the hams were a cut above the rest? old hams should imbrace new ones, as hard as it might be, and new hams should sit back and learn from the masters, not start by causing hard feelings?
I remember these same feelings when I was a new team member with special forces, the members of the team that saw combat were reluctant to embrace new team members,although we all had the same common goal in mind.
Someday we will need eachother, as far as the world is going! we should all try to get along!!

Thanks lets try to get through this. Mike

[KA7RRA]

Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Dec. 22 2006,07:12)]People are already saying that the test should be reduced to regulations and safety, and there should only be one class of license.
I agree with that Iam a General class operater.What dose a extra class get me,that I can't do has a general class? except for some extra freqs space

[K0RGR]

Quote[/b] (KA7RRA @ Dec. 22 2006,13:17)]Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Dec. 22 2006,07:12)]People are already saying that the test should be reduced to regulations and safety, and there should only be one class of license.
I agree with that Iam a General class operater.What dose a extra class get me,that I can't do has a general class? except for some extra freqs space
Have you listened to 80 meters since the bands were realigned? That 3600-3800 segment the Extra gets you is pretty impressive - lots of room for civil QSO's, and lots of them there.

There really isn't much difference between the two tests - or at least there wasn't until the most recent rewrite of the exam questions for Tech. I am waiting to see the new General test pool that's going into effect in July. I am hoping to see a more technical/theory-oriented test. THEN, there will be a real difference. They did increase the emphasis on 'technical' questions in the current Tech, but they eliminated things like schematics.

As it is, we've had several people pass the General after taking our Tech class, and most who attempt it come within one or two questions of passing without any more study.

But, UEY is right, the people who control the exams do seem to be steering the Tech question pool to make it more of an entry-level exam. If we're going to have three classes of license, there needs to be a real distinction.

The current Tech focuses on practical operating matters more than theory. If you hand a kid the current License Manual, he will either take one look and run away - something the vast majority will do - or he will take the mature course and start reading. Only those who are willing to actually put in some effort will do this.

[k4vvx]

Never say never, Guys. #I woke up one morning in 1965 and had about 50% of the General Class operating privileges that I had the day before, and had earned in 1960. #This was supposed to give me some "incentive"..........It didn't. Nothing surprises me anymore.

I did break 1/2 of the promise that I made to myself that day. #After 39 years, I rejoined ARRL in 2004 in order to get access to the web site and the QSL bureau. #I probably made a mistake.

The Fox is guarding the chicken house.

[W8FAX]

All you generals that are thinking of upgrading, don't do it. The tests are wayy to hard for most to comprehend, and after all, you really don't get much spectrum added. It's really not worth it. Really. So please please stay generals. Its much better.
I also wonder when the ops who couldn't upgrade because they couldn't hack the code, will start in on the written tests. After all, there are really a LOT of questions about modes you may never use. Especially if you are an appliance operator.

[KI4PEQ]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Dec. 22 2006,12:52)]If you think about it the FCC has never been known to reverse it's decisions and go back down the same roads.
In the beginning The Technician was the same test that the General took. The difference was the skill test was only 5 wpm code for technician and 13 Wpm for General.The priviledges however were dramatic, the Technician had NO code below 50 Mcs,and NO HF priviledges. The FCC watered down the Tech test to match the priviledges.With the abolishment of the Novice ticket the Technician is now the entry level test. By merging the Technician and the General they abolish one more level of test leaving only General and Extra.You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the course being taken. The eventual merge of the Extra and General brings it to no class Amateur Radio. The final step then to merge Part 95 service and Part97 service and thay NO LONGER have a reason to baby sit Amateur Radio !! In my opinion that is the final goal.Everyone is PC at the bottom of the barrel ,where all the sludge eventually will collect !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
I guess everyone is entitled to prognosticate as to the future of amateur radio re: testing and code.

We all know that Morse Code will be an option within the next month or so. As for examinations, I do not see the FCC eliminating them. That's my opinion, and I would join the veteran hams in fiercely objecting to any efforts to eliminate them.

I DO wish that the attitude of "TECH = SLACKER" would either disappear or abate. I also wish the moderators were a bit more even handed in dealing with the CONTINUING debate over code. It seems if a Technician expresses his pleasure with the demise of the code test, he or she is admonished not to "bait" their fellow amateurs. I don't see the same effort made when Technicians are slammed as "slackers", "lazy", and "unmotivated". The vast majority of us are none of these. You will see a groundswell of Technicians upgrading to General once the new rules take effect. #I would hope that the new Generals will be judged solely upon the rules that were in effect when they took their exam, and not be shunned by those who consider them lesser operators because they did not have to sit for an Element 1 exam.

I can dream....can't I? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (KC0PKA @ Dec. 22 2006,12:36)]WOW! as a new ham, I have heard a lot of bad feelings about current issues and dont think this is the way to do it?
#We are all in this togather and it is what it is at this point.
old hams should imbrace new ones, as hard as it might be, and new hams should sit back and learn from the masters, not start by causing hard feelings?
#I remember these same feelings when I was a new team member with special forces, the members of the team that saw combat were reluctant to embrace new team members,although we all had the same common goal in mind.
#Someday we will need eachother, as far as the world is going! we should all try to get along!!

#Thanks lets try to get through this. Mike
kc0pka- I was under the impression the hams were a cut above the rest?-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------(well in the days ahead you will learn a lot of things about the people in ham Radio that you did not know , good luck to you in ham Radio , 73 Bill kd4mxe http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KC0PKA]

OK Bill,I understand, Im in ham radio to learn and have fun thats it
Im not here to sling mud,just here to enjoy a new hobby,make some friends and gain some knowledge that only old hams have.
as a new ham I will respect the rules and regulations set in place, as should all new hams!


73s Mike KC0PKA http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[N5PVL]

KC0PKA:
That sounds an awful lot like the way a lot of today's most respected hams started off, Mike. Your attitude as stated will take you a long way in amateur radio.

On Topic:
I am saying that NCTs who have just been handed Tech-plus privileges are going to have a hard time seeing why they shouldn't now be bootstrapped up to General, seeing as how the differences between Tech-plus and General are trivial compared to the differences ( Tech - Tech-plus ) which were just swept away as part of the recent reorganization.

I think all can agree that memorizing a few frequencies and multiple-guess questions that seperate the Tech and General question pools is a trivial matter for most individuals, compared to learning to copy the code.

The "Let's deregulate Ham Radio out of existence" folks will of course attack any aspect of the hobby they can, but it should be pretty obvious that the easy, juicy target now is the General ticket. They will attempt to generate outrage among the NCT population, which should be no challenge for them ( forgive the pun ) as they already have been doing this most effectively for years and years.

My question is when amateurs in the twenty-first century will stop being suckered by propaganda techniques developed back in the 1920's. ( agitprop )

( I know the answer, but I don't like to think about it. )

[K7JEM]

The propaganda is coming from the "coder" side. Doom, gloom, etc.

If techs want general privs, they can take a written test, sans code, and get them. Just that easy. If you wanted extra privs, you could take a written test, sans code, and get that too. Some people will be comfortable where they are, others will want to upgrade. That is their choice. The FCC has put to bed the idea of techs getting general privs. That could change, but not in the very near future.

You are "fear mongering".

Joe

[k6jpd]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Dec. 23 2006,08:49)]I think all can agree that memorizing a few frequencies and multiple-guess questions that seperate the Tech and General question pools is a trivial matter for most individuals.

My question is when amateurs in the twenty-first century will stop being suckered by propaganda techniques developed back in the 1920's.
... and not any harder than multiple guess answers to extra either.

imo: the horse is dead, it won't run; no matter how hard it is beaten.

[ai4ep]

...never mind...

[KC0PKA]

Dont short change yourself, a piece of paper does not mean you dont have the same ability of someone that has a college education! let it be written!

enjoy your holiday! 73s Mike.

[KC0OFZ]

Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Dec. 22 2006,11:52)]If you think about it the FCC has never been known to reverse it's decisions and go back down the same roads.
In the beginning The Technician was the same test that the General took. The difference was the skill test was only 5 wpm code for technician and 13 Wpm for General.The priviledges however were dramatic, the Technician had NO code below 50 Mcs,and NO HF priviledges. The FCC watered down the Tech test to match the priviledges.With the abolishment of the Novice ticket the Technician is now the entry level test. By merging the Technician and the General they abolish one more level of test leaving only General and Extra.You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the course being taken. The eventual merge of the Extra and General brings it to no class Amateur Radio. The final step then to merge Part 95 service and Part97 service and thay NO LONGER have a reason to baby sit Amateur Radio !! In my opinion that is the final goal.Everyone is PC at the bottom of the barrel ,where all the sludge eventually will collect !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Exactly. This is just the start. The whiners and slackers WILL NOT give what it takes and will DEMAND the written test to be removed. Afterall all they want to do is talk. The sell out league will of course give in to this and the FCC wanting to be rid of the problem will give in too. These whiners have gottne this far and will not stop now. They want it all and want it all handed to them. The written tests are going to be eliminated due to the cries of the new batch of and to some extent the current batch of whiners.

[KI4ITV]

Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Dec. 23 2006,11:02)]Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Dec. 22 2006,11:52)]If you think about it the FCC has never been known to reverse it's decisions and go back down the same roads.
In the beginning The Technician was the same test that the General took. The difference was the skill test was only 5 wpm code for technician and 13 Wpm for General.The priviledges however were dramatic, the Technician had NO code below 50 Mcs,and NO HF priviledges. The FCC watered down the Tech test to match the priviledges.With the abolishment of the Novice ticket the Technician is now the entry level test. By merging the Technician and the General they abolish one more level of test leaving only General and Extra.You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the course being taken. The eventual merge of the Extra and General brings it to no class Amateur Radio. The final step then to merge Part 95 service and Part97 service and thay NO LONGER have a reason to baby sit Amateur Radio !! In my opinion that is the final goal.Everyone is PC at the bottom of the barrel ,where all the sludge eventually will collect !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Exactly. This is just the start. The whiners and slackers WILL NOT give what it takes and will DEMAND the written test to be removed. Afterall all they want to do is talk. The sell out league will of course give in to this and the FCC wanting to be rid of the problem will give in too. These whiners have gottne this far and will not stop now. They want it all and want it all handed to them. The written tests are going to be eliminated due to the cries of the new batch of and to some extent the current batch of whiners.
Bravo Sierra. QSL?

[KC0OFZ]

Quote[/b] (KI4ITV @ Dec. 23 2006,16:08)]Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Dec. 23 2006,11:02)]Quote[/b] (K6UEY @ Dec. 22 2006,11:52)]If you think about it the FCC has never been known to reverse it's decisions and go back down the same roads.
In the beginning The Technician was the same test that the General took. The difference was the skill test was only 5 wpm code for technician and 13 Wpm for General.The priviledges however were dramatic, the Technician had NO code below 50 Mcs,and NO HF priviledges. The FCC watered down the Tech test to match the priviledges.With the abolishment of the Novice ticket the Technician is now the entry level test. By merging the Technician and the General they abolish one more level of test leaving only General and Extra.You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see the course being taken. The eventual merge of the Extra and General brings it to no class Amateur Radio. The final step then to merge Part 95 service and Part97 service and thay NO LONGER have a reason to baby sit Amateur Radio !! In my opinion that is the final goal.Everyone is PC at the bottom of the barrel ,where all the sludge eventually will collect !! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Exactly. #This is just the start. #The whiners and slackers WILL NOT give what it takes and will DEMAND the written test to be removed. #Afterall all they want to do is talk. #The sell out league will of course give in to this and the FCC wanting to be rid of the problem will give in too. #These whiners have gottne this far and will not stop now. #They want it all and want it all handed to them. #The written tests are going to be eliminated due to the cries of the new batch of and to some extent the current batch of whiners.
Bravo Sierra. QSL?
Believe it or don't. #I don't give a darn and it does not change things as they are happening. #If you hate requirements, whatever, hopefully enough have a spine to support them to prevent these events from happening.
BTW, put your QSL where it belongs....back on CW. #
OK?

[K0HWY]

In what is now an obviously outdated philosophy, my dad once said, "Whining will get you nothing." Now there's some real "bravo sierra." The world is at your fingertips if you're willing to lose your pride.

[KC0OFZ]

Quote[/b] (K0HWY @ Dec. 23 2006,17:28)]In what is now an obviously outdated philosophy, my dad once said, "Whining will get you nothing." Now there's some real "bravo sierra." The world is at your fingertips if you're willing to lose your pride.
how true that is...... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[KI4ITV]

Quote[/b] (KC0OFZ @ Dec. 23 2006,12:24)]Believe it or don't. I don't give a darn and it does not change things as they are happening. If you hate requirements, whatever, hopefully enough have a spine to support them to prevent these events from happening.
BTW, put your QSL where it belongs....back on CW.
OK?
Look who's whining now.
If there is one thing I am not lacking, it would probably be spine. I don't hate requirements either, I've been around this hobby for a long time, and I just don't see the problems that some of you are so scared of. It is dissapointing that the test are changing as they are, but, again I don't see a movement to eliminate all testing or to further deregulate amateur radio.
Sure, we will get a few new people who have no regard for the traditions and history of our beloved hobby, but one "sit and spin" around the general portion of 75m will tell you that this has been happening for a long time.
So relax, take a deep breath, and let me put my QSL's where I want to put them.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Trey P.

[KI4QFY]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Dec. 22 2006,03:29)]As noted elsewhere, the "something for nothing" crowd who were stymied by morse code at 5wpm have just been given HF privileges by the FCC...
The continued bellyache saga... If the torch gets dropped, dont worry... theres a bunch of "haters" that will pick it up and run with it. Sigh. This is the hobby I so badly wanted to get involved in?

[KI4NGN]

Quote[/b] (KI4QFY @ Dec. 24 2006,01:42)]Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Dec. 22 2006,03:29)]As noted elsewhere, the "something for nothing" crowd who were stymied by morse code at 5wpm have just been given HF privileges by the FCC...
The continued bellyache saga... #If the torch gets dropped, dont worry... theres a bunch of "haters" that will pick it up and run with it. #Sigh. #This is the hobby I so badly wanted to get involved in?
No! This is mainly just a few hams on the internet trolling their fears as if they are fact, convinced that they were right about the negative result of the skill test removal despite the fact that the result is yet to be witnessed.

I let myself get hooked once in a while just to try to be a voice of reason, but it never works.

Rest assured that you have entered a great hobby that brings together people from all walks of life with the common interest of radio communications, and it can be a lot of fun and quite rewarding!

Mike, Raleigh, NC

[N5PVL]

KI4QFY:
Quote[/b] ]
The continued bellyache saga... #If the torch gets dropped, dont worry... theres a bunch of "haters" that will pick it up and run with it. #Sigh. #This is the hobby I so badly wanted to get involved in?

That's right... Demonize anybody who cares about the hobby, and what is happening to it.

If hams are afraid to speak up for the hobby, deregulation will go a lot smoother and amateur radio can be undermined and destroyed without hurting anybody's precious little feelings.

I suppose that would make you happy.

So-called Hams who want to 'improve' amateur radio through deregulation are basically saying that the less we know, and the less we do, the better it will be for ham radio.

It's the same anti-intellectualism that transformed the citizen's band service in the late 1950's.

Stupidity advocates. - Those who strive to be less, and work to force that same mediocrity upon their peers...

The fact that this is widely tolerated and even encouraged is a sad, sad comment about the state of amateur radio today.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Dec. 23 2006,14:01)]...never mind...
I agree.

[KD5SHW]

I've noticed that the people whining about the code drop don't actually make arguments supporting their belief that there is a reason to keep code. Rather they rely calling those who disagree with them names. Slacker, lazy, we've heard them all. Never any substance just name calling.

I think what it really boils down to is they are worried about their mode going the way of AM. Without the code requirement how can they get someone to learn it when you can get text across the air easier and faster with a computer based digital mode? It's sort of a contradiction. On one hand they tell you how superior the mode is(breaking through the noise, simplicity of receiving and transmitting, and so on), but on the other hand it seems like they're worried about losing it. This leads to emotional responses, and then the name calling.

I don't think there would be so much animosity among the two sides if things actually focused on the facts. It is rather unemotional when you look at the facts. The code was included because of international requirements. The international requirements have changed. The rules have changed. When you look at it like that it isn't so emotional. Nobody is trying to kill your mode. Nobody is trying to "dumb down" ham radio. Everything is going to be alright. The rules are just changing to reflect the state of radio.

[N5PVL]

Now we have the PC thought police on duty, telling us all what we can and cannot think.

Isn't that reassuring?

[W5IEI]

If there are any Generals,or Extras happy about this it's because now they can get all their CB buddies on the air.

[K7JEM]

Quote[/b] (W5IEI @ Dec. 24 2006,06:35)]If there are any Generals,or Extras happy about this it's because now they can get all their CB buddies on the air.
I'm happy, but I have no CB buddies.

The biggest complainers here are the people that think they "lost" something. Nothing was taken away from anyone, you still have all the privs you had before. Some of you are mad because someone will "get" something without having to do exactly the same thing you had to do.

Joe

[KI4ITV]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Dec. 23 2006,23:45)]Now we have the PC thought police on duty, telling us all what we can and cannot think.

Isn't that reassuring?
Shouldn't you be studying for that upgrade?

[KI4ITV]

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Dec. 24 2006,07:18)]Quote[/b] (W5IEI @ Dec. 24 2006,06:35)]If there are any Generals,or Extras happy about this it's because now they can get all their CB buddies on the air.
I'm happy, but I have no CB buddies.

The biggest complainers here are the people that think they "lost" something. Nothing was taken away from anyone, you still have all the privs you had before. Some of you are mad because someone will "get" something without having to do exactly the same thing you had to do.

Joe
Joe,
This is probably the biggest question that I have.
Why do hams think that CB'ers are clammering to get into amateur radio? I don't think I even know a "real CB" enthusiast. And why do they think all the young people coming in know anything about the citizens band?

I keep getting sucked up into these threads because they are the most active, stupid me.
But, I would like to say that I really admire the much older ops who are showing a positive attitude towards the changes.
That is true amateur spirit. The rest of you guys need to get a life and quite measuring you self-worth through a hobby.

[KI4NGN]

Quote[/b] (W5IEI @ Dec. 24 2006,06:35)]If there are any Generals,or Extras happy about this it's because now they can get all their CB buddies on the air.
I'm thrilled, but nope, don't know any CB'ers, haven't for over 38 years.

I do find it interesting, the incessant mention of CB by some ham ops. One can only conclude that they either miss it or in fact have their own number of CB buddies.

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Dec. 24 2006,12:18)]Quote[/b] (W5IEI @ Dec. 24 2006,06:35)]If there are any Generals,or Extras happy about this it's because now they can get all their CB buddies on the air.
I'm happy, but I have no CB buddies.

The biggest complainers here are the people that think they "lost" something. Nothing was taken away from anyone, you still have all the privs you had before. Some of you are mad because someone will "get" something without having to do exactly the same thing you had to do.

Joe
tell them about about it joe ,Bill kd4mxe http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[N5PVL]

Sure... And that's how Generals are supposed to feel later on, when NCT's are bootstrapped into General priviliges, too.

Riiiight. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[K7JEM]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Dec. 24 2006,18:10)]Sure... And that's how Generals are supposed to feel later on, when NCT's are bootstrapped into General priviliges, too.

Riiiight. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
There are no proposals on the table today to upgrade techs to general, just isn't going to happen soon. If techs want general privs they can take a relatively simple written test and get that. If they don't, then they have to wait until they are afforded "upgraded" privs, which may never happen, or at the quickest, probably two years away.

We see how slow the FCC moves on proposals. It was in 2003 when they started taking petitions about code test changes. It looks like it will be Feb 2007 when the change is finally made. Thats almost four years. People that got into ham radio when the process began are now "seasoned" ops, or at least could be.

If that change is made, it will only be after a long process of debate and research, with plenty of time for people to lodge input, upgrade to extra, or sell their equipment and get out of the hobby. Those that pass the additional tests get their reward now, they don't have to wait. Those that wait "may" get an upgrade in the future, or maybe not.

Joe

[N5PVL]

They found out about deregulation the hard way with citizen's band in the late 1950's... When deregulation and lax enforcement of the regs combine, a situation is created where things rapidly get out of hand. In a classic example often used among amateurs to illustrate the 'slippery slope' arguement, the FCC progressively lost all control of citizen's band. First the option of maintaining reasonable standards was lost to the holy grail of deregulation, then the ability to enforce the few CB regulations the FCC still then tried to maintain. All of this resulted from well-intentioned efforts to 'streamline' and 'modernize' citizen's band. - It resulted in chaos.

Many readers here may not realize that citizen's band was once well regulated, had FCC issued callsigns and was much more productive than one would believe by looking at CB today, years after being deregulated.

This week's AR Newsline (http://www.arnewsline.org/) has a long, involved story about how amateurs who wanted to retain CW testing were all afraid of the CB community taking over amateur radio. The Newsline staff misrepresented and denigrated concerned amateurs with this story, holding them up to ridicule for being afraid of a massive CB invasion. - The actual concern, deregulation, was never mentioned in this hateful load of yellow journalism. - An example of which that amateurs should remember whenever AR Newsline asks for our support, as they often tend to do.

The same situation that preceded the destruction of citizen's band is now facing amateur radio, where pressure to deregulate progressively reduces our options until every one of them is gone.

Note that the option of making our exams tougher or more comprehensive is now next to nonexistent, but making them simpler and less substantial is eased and greased in every possible way.

Note how the idea of creating additional license classes is a real non-starter, but the idea of having less of them is widely encouraged.

Note recent ARRL attempts to:

*Eliminate band segmentation by mode.
*Elimimate morse code testing.
*Eliminate content restrictions.
*Eliminate restrictions against data encryption on the ham bands.
*Eliminate bandwidth restrictions.
*Eliminate restrictions on spread-spectrum transmissions, where they can operate and what how much power they can use.

- But note that the ARRL has made no attempt to strengthen or honor the regulations that protect and define amateur radio in any way, only one try after another to eliminate or undermine them.

This, from those who claim to be amateur radio's stewards here in the US.

In light of this, I believe that it is quite reasonable to be concerned about the effects of deregulation upon amateur radio.

Among the remaining liscense classes, the General ticket appears to be the one most likely to be undermined, disparaged and eliminated next.

Some of you folks can pretend that this is not happening if you like, but it's an uphill battle in the face of this evident trend, which is not in the least bit uncertain or ambiguous.

We know what happens when deregulation gets out of hand and is combined with lax enforcement, and we know that this is precisely what is happening to amateur radio right now.

[K7JEM]

Your opinion is just not shared by the ham community at large. Most hams are satisfied with the way things are going, evidenced by the fact that there is no widespread opposition. These things don't come out of a vacuum, there is a lot of input every time something is changed.

You are talking about CB as if it has some sort of bearing on ham radio. It doesn't, never has had much influence. The "deregulation" of CB radio happened around 1976, that was 30 years ago, why talk about it now?

Too many hams think they can mention "CB", and get a rise out of hams. The fact is that most CBers don't care about ham radio, and we just use them as scapegoats.

It is natural that many, if not most, of the hams over the past 30 years have come from CB. People with an interest start with something familiar, then learn of something better, or more to their liking. Some CBers become hams, it is a natural progression in things, it is not bad.

Joe

[AE6IP]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Dec. 24 2006,20:29)]This week's AR Newsline (http://www.arnewsline.org/) has a long, involved story about how amateurs who wanted to retain CW testing were all afraid of the CB community taking over amateur radio. This story misrepresented and denigrated concerned amateurs with this story, holding them up to ridicule for being afraid of a massive CB invasion.

The "long involved" story is a 12 paragraph editorial, most of which consists of separate one paragraph attempts to dismiss various bogus claims being made.

It doesn't misrepresent or denigrate anyone, let alone "concerned amateurs." It does suggest that "Some of those who are upset" ... "see only doom and gloom" -- an observation that can easily be verified by traffic on this board since the R&O was announced.

Quote[/b] ]
- The actual concern, deregulation, was never mentioned in this hateful load of yellow journalism.


"yellow journalism" might possibly be a bit excessive as a description of this editorial, in much the same was as using a MIRV is a bit excessive for traffic enforcement. "Hateful" is certainly excessive for an editorial that contains no derogatory comments at all.

Quote[/b] ]
The same situation that preceded the destruction of citizen's band is now facing amateur radio, where pressure to deregulate progressively reduces our options until every one of them is gone.

If you're going to try to draw a parallel between the "destruction" of citizen band and the potential "destruction" of amateur radio, you should at least get the basic facts straight.

Deregulation of citizen's band came after the uncontrollable influx of rule breakers. It was the FCC's admission of defeat. It wasn't the flood gate whose opening caused the uncontrollable influx.

Of course, there are a plethora of ways in which the demise of CB in the 70s differ from the situation now, including:

1) Burt Reynolds isn't going to be making movies featuring amateur radio

2) HF rigs aren't going to suddenly become so cheap that anyone can afford one in their car

and

3) The cellphones that pretty much put the final nail in CB's coffin aren't going to suddenly stop working.

The same horde that didn't show up when the tech license requirement for element 1 isn't going to show up this time, either.

A few people who hadn't bothered to upgrade from tech to general because of code will upgrade now.

It's not going to impact generals upgrading to extra, since exactly the same barrier to upgrading remains in place.

[KI4NGN]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Dec. 24 2006,21:29)]- But note that the ARRL has made no attempt to strengthen or honor the regulations that protect and define amateur radio in any way, only one try after another to eliminate or undermine them.
Uh, let's see, do you mean like taking the FCC to federal court over the Commission's apparent failure to follow the law in regards to BPL? Do you mean not doing things like that?

Which, by the way, costs money, none of which comes from the ARRL bashers but from which all will benefit.

Mike

[N5PVL]

KI4NGN:

There goes that reading comprehension problem again... Those last two posts are really sad. I am sorry to see that you still haven't made any progress on that yet, but keep trying!

I am confident that with enough effort, you will someday be able to demonstrate the ability to read and understand the posts here. The days of making things up yourself and then replying to that, instead of what was written will be over.

I'm rooting for you, OM!

[KI4NGN]

Making things up??? Laughing my butt off!!!....I quoted a black and white statement made by you Charles! Do you comprehend what you write?

What you can't stand, as you repeatedly and often demonstrate, is when someone takes up one of your 'factual' statements and demonstrates beyond argument that you are being inaccurate.

Come on now, let's see it...what did I make up?

Continue with the insults Charles, they garner nothing but respect for your positions. Laughing!

[KD5NCO]

Marty AE6IP and Mike KI4NGN

Excellent counter arguments

Notice how Charles N5PVL resorts to:

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin, literally argument against the person), personal attack or you-too argument, involves replying to an argument or assertion by attacking the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself. It is a logical fallacy.

This is typical on QRZed....fortunatly most of us are educated enough to see the fear mongering for what it is and many of us are old enough to notice that the "sky is falling" personalities on these forums are NOT the majority view...

The ARS will easily survive this, hopefully grow some, and ultimately level out so we can get back to arguing if wide SSB is really superior to AM

BTW... If some day down the road (more them 5 years away at least) there are only two classes...Entry level and Full Priveledges... so what?

[N5PVL]

Oh Boy! More PC nannyism.

It's OK to make a personal attack if you are a PC nanny. - The rules are of course for everybody but them.

Imagine how much intelligence it takes to go on about personal attacks - while in the process of writing a personal attack! # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif # Gee, I hope the silly goober doesn't end up shooting himself over the issue, when he reads his own post!

Merry Christmas!

[w5alt]

Quote[/b] (N5PVL @ Dec. 25 2006,00:29)]Note recent ARRL attempts to:

*Eliminate band segmentation by mode.
*Elimimate morse code testing.
*Eliminate content restrictions.
*Eliminate restrictions against data encryption on the ham bands.
*Eliminate bandwidth restrictions.
*Eliminate restrictions on spread-spectrum transmissions, where they can operate and what how much power they can use.
Charles, you forgot one ---

*Automatically upgrade Technicians to General

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[ab0wr]

ae6ipQuote[/b] ]If you're going to try to draw a parallel between the "destruction" of citizen band and the potential "destruction" of amateur radio, you should at least get the basic facts straight.

Deregulation of citizen's band came after the uncontrollable influx of rule breakers. It was the FCC's admission of defeat. It wasn't the flood gate whose opening caused the uncontrollable influx.

Marty,

If you are going to try and correct someones history then you should try to get it right also.

Charles spoke of deregulation AND lack of enforcement.

For CB, history happened in stages, first lack of enforcement, then some deregulation, then lack of enforcement, then some more deregulation, then more lack of enforcement, and finally total deregulation.

If you don't know and understand history, you are doomed to repeat it.

Originally, to operate a CB you had to obtain a 3rd Class Radiotelephone license and send in a notarized license application. CB was only supposed to be for business use. Because of a lack of enforcement, most people with licenses began using it for pleasure as well as business. Rather than enforce the rules the Service was then deregulated to not require an operator license, to not require a notarized license application, and to allow pleasure use of the Service. Then, more lack of enforcement led to most CB users becoming scofflaws who did not even bother to mail in the license application. Then came more deregulation as the FCC knew it had let the horse out of the barn. They tried to frame it as "we are getting more license requests than we can handle so we are going to eliminate the licensing requirement" but everyone on CB at the time knew that was nothing more than political positioning because almost no one was sending in license applications so how could the FCC be buried?

The tale of the CB service is a tale of steadily eroding standards and no government intervention to maintain the standards. The FCC most certainly *did* bring on the influx of scofflaws through its lack of enforcement and steady, but certain, deregulation.

It is my firm opinion that the only reason we have license tests today is that the ITU treaties require amateur operators to demonstrate a minimal knowledge of radio systems and regulations. It is also my firm opinion that this will come under direct attack over the next few years. And just as with the Morse Code requirement, the FCC will knuckle under to the "lowest base" whiners -- it has exactly a zero track record of doing anything else.

It may take more than two years, it may take as long as a decade, but it *will* happen. The ham bands will become home to every scofflaw and lowest-common-denominator style of operator you can possibly imagine.

The downward slope has already been established with the steady erosion of the need for actual technical knowledge in order to obtain a license. It is now nothing more than a matter of how steep it becomes on the race to the bottom.

When I studied for my General license in 1964 at the age of 14, I had to find a tutor to explain basic trig to me and how it applied to frequencies. I had exactly no chance at knowing how to convert between rectangular and polar coordinates or how to use complex numbers on a Smith Chart. This was all basic knowledge an Extra class licensee was expected to know. Today we hear of seven year olds getting their Extra Class licenses. I'll almost guarantee you that none of them can sit down with an amplifier and work out an output matching network using a Smith Chart let alone use Bessel functions in understanding FM and how to measure deviation.

So don't tell me that the dumbing down is just a figment of my imagination.

And I see exactly zero effort from either the ARRL or the FCC to even slow the process down let alone reverse it.

Charles has it right. The Generals better look out. They *are* the next target.

tim ab0wr

[AE6IP]

We're going to have to agree to disagree on the early history of CB deregulation because your version is different than I learned, but I don't feel like digging up the details now. Nor does it matter to the situation today.

However, you're simply wrong about how it worked out in the 70s. The craze came first, the lack of enforcement came second, because the FCC didn't have the budget to enforce, and the deregulation came as an admission that enforcement had failed, at the behest of congress. That much is well documented and has been discussed on this and other ham web boards for five or more years.

Take a look at the extra pool. You'll find that the same problems that you looked for a trig tutor for in '64 still require trig to solve now. But you'll also find that trig is being taught in the schools to 14 year olds and they don't need a tutor.

Your examples betray another problem though. Today's ham doesn't have to match an amplifier using Smith charts. The knowledge tested for just isn't that relevant any more.

[KD5NCO]

Silly Goober here Charles...

Notice how your PM in-box is #not full of profane insults from me

Sure wish I could say the same about my inbox... seems I hit a nerve...tough, get over it... You and I are NOT in a gentlemanly discussion... I feel free to take the turd you flipped in the punch bowl and fling it back into your pool where it belongs

Until your childish, sarcastic, and rude message about him, you were pondering and warning about one possible future for the ARS...Marty posed a well written opposing argument.

How about you stop being hurt, that someone would dare to disagree with you, and take the time to read and comprehend like you seem to want him to do.

How about you post something like Tim did, maybe even back it up with some fact instead of more anecdotal, "how it was when I was a kid" irrelevant BS.

[KD5NCO]

My memory of the history of Citizens band is about the same as Marty remembers it.. I am 52 now and I was there

The idea that a 14 year old can pass the Extra is not new... there are many stories in QST over the years dating back to the 30s with exceptionally young Amateurs who achieved much in spite of their age...so what?

Who gives a Tinkers damn if they can or can not sit down with an amplifier and work out an output matching network using a Smith Chart let alone use Bessel functions in understanding FM and how to measure deviation?

In the 21st century I think much of the old skills and knowledge is largely irrelevant unless you intend to home brew from scratch including design.

Save your "Appliance Operator" comments. A majority of ALL ARS members are using store bought equipment these days...it is 2007 in a few days, think about it.

Copying a project out of a ARRL Handbook has almost all the math done for you and includes testing and tuning tips and measurements. I know of dozens of advanced electronics projects that were completed successfully and the soldering Iron user had zero clue about how the item worked. #None the less, they are on the air and safe, and about as spectrally pure as needed by the FCC rules.

I doubt any Amateur I know (and many of them are 60+year old Extras) can do this either..(Ref using a Smith Chart) and why should they? #The Heath Kit amps they built, or their store bought Dentron, Ameritron Amps are fine equipment with well designed matching networks.

As to the "Bessel functions in understanding FM and how to measure deviation".

I sent e-mail this PM to three of my Old Skool Elmer's on this one because I don't know what Bessel functions are...funny, two just responded while I write this, and neither do they. Oh we all understand about FM and deviation, just seems like we all would have to look up and get familiar with what Bessel functions are.

And amazingly for the 14 year old new Extra, or any of us older seasoned Amateurs we all have the same ability to search it out, learn it if relevant, and apply if needed...thankfully without a trip across town to the Ham club or down to the Library... a quick Google gets thousands of pages of info

[w7auw]

Charlie baby just started a topic so he would have someone to argue with. Charlie, Charlie bo farley banana fanna fo farley CHARLIE!

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 25 2006,14:27)]We're going to have to agree to disagree on the early history of CB deregulation because your version is different than I learned, but I don't feel like digging up the details now. Nor does it matter to the situation today.

However, you're simply wrong about how it worked out in the 70s. The craze came first, the lack of enforcement came second, because the FCC didn't have the budget to enforce, and the deregulation came as an admission that enforcement had failed, at the behest of congress. #That much is well documented and has been discussed on this and other ham web boards for five or more years.

Take a look at the extra pool. You'll find that the same problems that you looked for a trig tutor for in '64 still require trig to solve now. #But you'll also find that trig is being taught in the schools to 14 year olds and they don't need a tutor.

Your examples betray another problem though. Today's ham doesn't have to match an amplifier using Smith charts. The knowledge tested for just isn't that relevant any more.
I don't have to learn the history, Marty. I lived through it. My father first used CB in his business. I can remember him having us apply for a 3rd class license which later came in handy while operating a Civil Air Patrol station. I can also still hear him complaining about all the scofflaws misusing the service. This was mid-60's, long before the "craze" happened. If the FCC had enforced the regulations then, before it became a craze, it would not have become a craze. A few well-publicized prosecutions and fines for unlicensed operation would have nipped the problems in the bud.

We *are* seeing exactly the same attitude from the FCC towards amateur radio.

I work in a middle school, Marty. And my son is a senior in high school. The trig they learn as a 14 year old is an extension of geometry. They usually do not learn about simple, or even complex, harmonic motion until they take Advanced Placement Physics, usually as a 17 or 18 year old senior.

And you saying that knowing how to match an amplifiier using a Smith chart isn't relevant any more says more about YOUR view of what the service than it does about the actual relevance of the knowledge.

Part 97.1 says:
© Encouragement and improvement of the amateur service through rules which provide for advancing skills in both the communication and technical phases of the art.
(d) Expansion of the existing reservoir within the amateur radio service of trained operators, technicians, and electronics experts.

These are just as relevant today as ever. Based on the declining numbers of degreed engineers the US is producing today, the technical knowlege fostered as a part of the ARS may be more important to our future than ever before in our past.

An electronics expert is the same today as it was in 1950, Marty. The sad fact is that the FCC seems to have the same view you have -- i.e. who cares anymore, just get on the radio and talk! Somebody in a foreign country will build us a radio we don't need to understand in order to use!

Up unskilled users! Down technical experts!

My examples betray exactly what I meant them to betray - a dumbing down of the entry requirements into the service and therefore a betrayal of the purposes of the ARS as laid out in the rules and regulations. The FCC doesn't seem to care. The ARRL certainly doesn't. And it appears that you don't either.

Watch out Generals!

tim ab0wr

[AC0H]

http://home.mchsi.com/~rkstover/graphics/LicBoxTop2.jpg

[K7JEM]

Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Dec. 25 2006,19:20)]http://home.mchsi.com/~rkstover/graphics/LicBoxTop2.jpg
The only problem is, no-one would send them in. The box tops would go straight to the trash because the general population doesn't want a ham license, even if you could get it for a few boxtops and a couple of bucks.

Joe

[ab0wr]

kd5ncoQuote[/b] ]My memory of the history of Citizens band is about the same as Marty remembers it.. I am 52 now and I was there

So was I. Do you remember having to get your license application notarized before sending it in?

Quote[/b] ]The idea that a 14 year old can pass the Extra is not new... there are many stories in QST over the years dating back to the 30s with exceptionally young Amateurs who achieved much in spite of their age...so what?

Certainly its not new. No one ever said it was. It *IS* becoming a lot more commonplace today. That *is* new. And it is a reflection of the dumbing down of the requirements that it is becoming so commonplace. The fact that you can shrug it off with a "so what" says volumes about your view of the service.

Quote[/b] ]Who gives a Tinkers damn if they can or can not sit down with an amplifier and work out an output matching network using a Smith Chart let alone use Bessel functions in understanding FM and how to measure deviation?

Who gives a Tinkers dam? I do. So do many of the hams I know.

Part 97.1 defines the ARS as a community of licensees providing the country with a pool of trained technicians and electronic experts. While no one is required to be either, if the community provides NO ONE in this classification then the community is not meeting its obligations under the rules and regulations. What is the next conclusion the typical bureaucrat will reach? Of course it will be: -- Why do we need the Service? --

Remember, while many of our frequencies are laid out in international treaty there is no requirement for any country to license any amateurs. And certain of the frequencies we use COULD be assigned or auctioned off to the highest bidder. An attractive option if the service s not meeting its obligations under the regulations.

Quote[/b] ]In the 21st century I think much of the old skills and knowledge is largely irrelevant unless you intend to home brew from scratch including design. #

I hear this from a lot of students regarding advanced math concepts, foreign language requirements, and even basic English. It is not true for EITHER community.

Quote[/b] ]Save your "Appliance Operator" comments. A majority of ALL ARS members are using store bought equipment these days...it is 2007 in a few days, think about it.

There are a larger percentage of hams today using homebuilt equipment than there has ever been in the amateur community. The sales of Solid State Design and EMRRD by Wes Haywood are just tremendous by any ones measure. The number of kits sold by the AMQRP and NJQRP organizations is amazing. Look at the yahoo groups on DDS vfo's, packet experimenting, and the picastar project. Hams have more access to parts through places like Mouser, Digikey, Dans Small Parts, etc. than hams have ever had in the past.

Quote[/b] ]Copying a project out of a ARRL Handbook has almost all the math done for you and includes testing and tuning tips and measurements. I know of dozens of advanced electronics projects that were completed successfully and the soldering Iron user had zero clue about how the item worked. #None the less, they are on the air and safe, and about as spectrally pure as needed by the FCC rules.

"About as spectrally pure"? Do you realize the import of what you just said?

ROFL. And learning how to tune circuits and how to measure them isn't "learning" anything?

If the measurements didn't come out right did they just throw the units away and start over? Or did they learn enough to figure out why the measurements weren't right?

Quote[/b] ]I doubt any Amateur I know (and many of them are 60+year old Extras) can do this either..(Ref using a Smith Chart) and why should they? #The Heath Kit amps they built, or their store bought Dentron, Ameritron Amps are fine equipment with well designed matching networks.

This sounds like the person who gets their car towed to the mechanic where they find out they should get the oil changed more often than every five years. If they don't understand how they work then how do they tell when they aren't working right? How do they take care of them correctly? How do you know someone didn't sell you an amp with the input connector wired directly through to the output with a 60 watt lamp inside so you can see the tube "glow"?

You are doing nothing more than making excuses for the lazy.

Quote[/b] ]As to the "Bessel functions in understanding FM and how to measure deviation".

I sent e-mail this PM to three of my Old Skool Elmer's on this one because I don't know what Bessel functions are...funny, two just responded while I write this, and neither do they. Oh we all understand about FM and deviation, just seems like we all would have to look up and get familiar with what Bessel functions are.

I rest my case. If you don't understand the significance of Bessel functions then how do you measure deviation? Or have you ever even bothered to measure the deviation of any of your FM rigs? Do you know if they are operating correctly or not? Or do you just assume that they are because they are "store bought"?

Quote[/b] ]And amazingly for the 14 year old new Extra, or any of us older seasoned Amateurs we all have the same ability to search it out, learn it if relevant, and apply if needed...thankfully without a trip across town to the Ham club or down to the Library... a quick Google gets thousands of pages of info

It's obvious that what you and I consider relevant are two different things. I consider knowing how my equipment works and knowing how to measure it so I can tell if it isn't working correctly is a VERY IMPORTANT, RELEVANT THING. Since you don't see knowing how things work as being very important, I must assume you don't consider it very relevant at all if your equipment is working within regulatory specified limits.

You just make my case for me with everything you say.

tim ab0wr

[K7JEM]

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Dec. 25 2006,20:07)]kd5ncoQuote[/b] ]My memory of the history of Citizens band is about the same as Marty remembers it.. I am 52 now and I was there

So was I. Do you remember having to get your license application notarized before sending it in?
I don't remember the notary, but in the mid 60's the CB license was not a third class license, it was a separate document. I think it was $8 then $20, or vice versa. It wasn't limited to business only, you could use it for personal things, but "chit chat" and "hobby type" communications were specifically prohibited.

You could talk with other licensees, but only on certain channels in the middle of the band, something like 9 to 18 or so. The other channels were reserved for communications between your own units. Channel nine was not specifically reserved for emergency at that time.

A lot of folks hung out on channel 11, that was the main used channel around here.

CB radios were relatively expensive back then, a CB with a few crystal controlled channels was $80-$100, and a 23 channel set started at about $140 or so. You could buy a brand new car for $2000.

CB started getting bad in the early 70's, when it's popularity increased. There was never much enforcement, and the radios were available everywhere. People just quit buying the licenses, and it became a free for all. The FCC increased the channels to 40, and dropped licensing in 1976 or so, thirty years ago. The 40 channels and cheap price contributed to it's popularity. You could buy a CB for about $50 in some places, a good one for $100.

Regardless, the history of CB has little to do with ham radio. There is no popularity craze going on for either right now. Those CBers that are "bad" will probably remain in CB, where they fit in. Those that want something else thats better will get ham tickets. It's been that way for 40 years.

Joe

[kd4mxe]

( hey #hey #what have we got here ,Bill kd4mxe #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kd4mxe]

Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Dec. 25 2006,19:20)]http://home.mchsi.com/~rkstover/graphics/LicBoxTop2.jpg
now this dude knows his stuff here,Bill kd4mxe http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[N2RJ]

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Dec. 25 2006,21:23)]Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Dec. 25 2006,19:20)]http://home.mchsi.com/~rkstover/graphics/LicBoxTop2.jpg
The only problem is, no-one would send them in. The box tops would go straight to the trash because the general population doesn't want a ham license, even if you could get it for a few boxtops and a couple of bucks.

Joe
If you advertise a ham license as being both free and giving you access to radios with more range than GMRS, the general population WILL want them.

After all, GMRS is widely popular and the only reason most people don't get a license is because of the $80 fee and the fact that the FCC doesn't really enforce it.

[K7JEM]

Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Dec. 25 2006,21:38)]Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Dec. 25 2006,21:23)]Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Dec. 25 2006,19:20)]http://home.mchsi.com/~rkstover/graphics/LicBoxTop2.jpg
The only problem is, no-one would send them in. The box tops would go straight to the trash because the general population doesn't want a ham license, even if you could get it for a few boxtops and a couple of bucks.

Joe
If you advertise a ham license as being both free and giving you access to radios with more range than GMRS, the general population WILL want them.

After all, GMRS is widely popular and the only reason most people don't get a license is because of the $80 fee and the fact that the FCC doesn't really enforce it.
That may be true. We have a good service, but the general public doesn't know anything about it, so giving away licenses on cereal boxes does no good.

You think they know what a tech, general, or extra is? If 2M radios were sold at wal mart with a free license in the box, less than half the people would send them in.

No-one wants a ham license, they just want to talk on an "18 mile" radio.

Joe

[AE6IP]

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Dec. 25 2006,18:16)]These are just as relevant today as ever. Based on the declining numbers of degreed engineers the US is producing today, the technical knowlege fostered as a part of the ARS may be more important to our future than ever before in our past.

30+ years ago when I got my first phone, the "technical knowledge" required for that license wasn't enough to pass the midterm in an introductory electronics class, let alone make up for a lack of engineering.

Quote[/b] ]
An electronics expert is the same today as it was in 1950, Marty. The sad fact is that the FCC seems to have the same view you have -- i.e. who cares anymore, just get on the radio and talk! Somebody in a foreign country will build us a radio we don't need to understand in order to use!


No, Tim, an electronics expert today is not the same as it was in 1950. In 1950, EE, for the most part meant electrical engineering, which was mostly AC power distribution engineering, and the electronics part of the curriculum was underemphasized and didn't cover solid state electronics at all. Almost nothing covered in the second half of a modern undergraduate curriculum was even considered by a 1950 EE who did specialize in electronics. Carver-Meade hadn't been written, Spice wasn't available, NEC3 was decades in the future, as were billion transistor ICs with ghz clock rates.

Quote[/b] ]
My examples betray exactly what I meant them to betray - a dumbing down of the entry requirements into the service and therefore a betrayal of the purposes of the ARS as laid out in the rules and regulations. The FCC doesn't seem to care. The ARRL certainly doesn't. And it appears that you don't either.


The problem here Tim is that you're conveniently ignoring the simple fact that your example doesn't hold water because the very questions you used in your example are still on the extra exam.

The exam is no easier than it was in the 60s and it has always been pretty easy. On the other hand, the industry left the amateur behind in the 70s. Even my undergraduate work in electronics from the 70s is pretty much irrelevant to the vast majority of today's electronics.

The cell phone that I'm working on now has four radios, Tim, and two cpus. It is, as are all modern cell phones, a mixed analog/digital design, and it has to be certified three different ways before it can be used in the United States. Not a single smith chart was calculated in its design. Nobody's calculated any bessel functions.

On the other hand, a couple million lines of Verilog have been written, along with Mathlab models, and more milliions of lines of code in three different programming languages. It runs a distributed operating system every bit as sophisticated as the one on your PC.

This is modern RF electrical engineering, Tim: Verilog and Mathlab; C programming and ghz clock rates.

The FCC "doesn't care" for the same reason I don't: the industry left amateur radio in the dust thirty years ago and hasn't looked back.

[N5PVL]

Amazing how some individuals just can't pee on ham radio hard enough or often enough, but who insist upon hanging around the hobby to make sure that nobody else enjoys it either.

These kind of "hams" are generally about as useful and nice to be around as as armpit stench.

They fashion their obnoxious attitude as 'the future of ham radio', trying to drag down the ham radio service to thier own sorry level when they could do much better by simply going over to the citizen's band service, where thier idiotic deregulation theories and grasping, uncivilized attitudes are already realized as the norm.

I do not believe that CB operators are organized to 'take over' ham radio, but it is pretty obvious that some of the more ignorant, antisocial attitudes endemic to the deregulated citizen's band service are now showing up in our our discussions of amateur radio. Only an advocate of deregulation would or could see this as a good thing.

In any case, the back of my hand is all I have to offer for destructive individuals who endanger the hobby and seek to denigrate amateur radio or tear it down.

[KD5NCO]

Hey N5PVL

I suppose you missed this last year... does the fellow who wrote it sound like he is "trying to drag down the ham radio service to thier own sorry level "

Quote of Fred von Gortler on QRZ in 2005 and 2006;

"I suppose much of my attitude is born out of frustration about the ARS standing in American Society.

Years ago the predecessor to the FCC created the ARS and formed a preamble describing the goals or philosophy for the formation of the Amateur Radio Service. Among those was the need for a trained and technically proficient group of radio operators. #They attempted to create an electronics / radio Militia so to speak.

During many of those years America participated in several major wars and we had a method of conscription to service (draft) in place. Under those laws it was possible for the government to press into service (draft), those citizens that had particular, necessary, and useful skills.

Officially the Draft ended in this country over 30 years ago, after Viet Nam, with the creation of the All Volunteer Army in 1974. #During this 30 year period, the need for Morse code proficient operators for air or maritime emergency response and dispatch has reduced to near zero with the advent of other easier to implement and more reliable technological advances. This had a net effect of relieving the ARS from one of our stated reasons to exist. We are no longer needed to receive and de-crypt codes for control of long range bombers. We are no longer needed to man the watch of coastal maritime distress response. We are no longer expected to lead the way in technological break through in the radio art.

The CW Nuclear strike EMP dooms day scenario is no longer relevant. #The government and military has enough redundant systems that they no longer need to rely solely on the uses of HF com systems. #Yes CW could indeed offer much needed relief after such an “event”, but the probability of the “event” is so low, the military no longer has any HF equipment, training, or plans for this scenario. #There could be a Homeland Security argument for ARS and HF CW just because the Military moved away from this capability.

Military Affiliate Radio System (MARS) is a nostalgic anachronism. Every soldier is provided an Army Knowledge OnLine (AKO) Internet account. There are many regional and local satellite call centers in every theater of operation I have been in since Viet Nam. Many soldiers have access to Video teleconferencing capabilities during this current war. I got 30 minuets on one of these systems to chat with my wife and children from Iraq earlier this year. #I did make a MARS call back to here. #It was a neat deal for the soldiers who man the station. When my time was up I called back to my wife on my cell phone to finish a thought.

Along the way, the ARS predominantly shifted to a hobby, pastime, and nostalgic fraternal organization of citizens whose importance or worth to American Society has been eroded by technology and perception. #I am not saying that we can not, or do not, still provide a valuable service to our country. #Just that relatively speaking, our worth has significantly diminished.

We must evaluate the contribution of our smallish group relative to the resources we require, and the administration of those resources.

If you look at the ARS from a business model you must conclude that any rational company would down size or eliminate the ARS Division/Branch as not necessary and not adequately contributing to the goals of the company relative to the cost of their resources and administration.

THIS is the major threat to the existence of the ARS, Not dropping the Element 1 test, or CC&Rs, and not BPL.

In order to secure our continued existence in American Society, we must increase our trained membership numerically. We must support one another and live by the “rules” and self police those who won’t. We must become firmly entrenched in Homeland Defense. #We must reverse the perception that we are just a bunch of old men hobbyists. We must prove a contribution that exceeds the cost of our resources and administration. #I believe Spectrum Defense is a key issue but the ARRL has taken a wrong direction in negotiating our position and requirements.

To survive in the 21st century the ARS must have a direct role in the goals and strategies for the Security of this nation and fully live up to the Charter of the Amateur Radio Service as stated in CFR 97.

The FCC is under no current law that requires them to be our advocate in any matters. The FCC may freely decide, without regard to our desires, to reduce our allocation in any spectrum in question. #That is why the ARRL seeks very hard to get the Congress to enact the Spectrum Protections. #We are very vulnerable in this area. # I think it is a bad mistake to make enemies of the FCC, big business, and share holders of big businesses.

To counter this problem our standing must be elevated above hobbyist. #The ARS must be perceived by the Society, and the FCC, and the Government as having equal status or standing to the Police, Firemen, and Military. #Arguably the ARS member enjoys no such standing, and the frequencies we are allocated are seen by the government as a privilege not a right. #This is the perception area I worry about. #Homeland defense and disaster relief are the only avenues for us to regain our standing in America for the 21st century.

We have lost a Major portion of our relevance and the sooner we accept that fact and work very hard to regain standing in the government and society the better.

If the ARS was abolished tomorrow morning the impact to American Society, Government, and Military would not be felt. #At least not in any way that could not be adequately provided by a few extra dollars to the Department of Homeland Defense to fill in the small gaps vacated by ARS EmCom teams.

The spectrum we are primary on above 30Mhz could be auctioned Monday morning for Billions of dollars. #Would more then 30,000 Americans even notice or care?

Yes Charles...in a fashion the sky is falling... but infighting, name calling, anger, and fear are not the way for us to combat these issues to the Future of the ARS

You, Marty, Tim, and I should be adult friends with a singular goal...perserving the ARS for our grandchildren future ...hard to do when you think Marty and I are peeing in your cornflakes...all the while you are trying to pee on our heads....

How about we put our pee tools away and try to expand ideas to counter the forces of evil against us...especially the dangers from within?

Marty and I have disagreed with you and Tim's assertions and argue why we think that way... This does not mean that you and Tim are completely wrong. #

This does not mean that we are NOT concerned about the future of the ARS. #It appears to me that we disagree on how you, and folks who think like you, want to continue the sky is falling dooms day fear. We tend to think that the way you present it does more damage by dividing us from within ...especailly at a time in history when we need to band together and get on the same page

Calling me (AKA most all NCTs) a lazy, dumbed down, whinny, gimme gimme LID is not going to work. Impugning our intellect, dignity, reading comprehension and man hood is counter productive also OM...

An just so you know, the Palstar tuner and Ameritron AL 572 Amp is on the way, the 80M wire is strung, and my Elmer and I are running through the Drake TR4 tuneup procedure so my first HF QSO on SSB will be on tube type old skool equipment. I will flip the switch to the Icom 746Pro or Yaesu Ft-920 after that brief nostalgic interlude and spend the next 10 or so years on my more modern rigs.

If some day when I am 80 or 90 years old (knock on wood) I fire up a tube rig, plug in the J38, and tap out a slow 5~10WPM CQ CQ.... that will be my nostalgic trip down memory lane and nothing anyone on QRZ can say leads me to believe that some LID with an echo mic and Roger beep will QRM me...

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] ]Save your "Appliance Operator" comments. A majority of ALL ARS members are using store bought equipment these days...it is 2007 in a few days, think about it.

I don't expect them to be able to service any of todays equipment, but what is unreasonable about requiring they know how the piece of equipment they are using does what it does?

Quote[/b] ]Copying a project out of a ARRL Handbook has almost all the math done for you and includes testing and tuning tips and measurements. I know of dozens of advanced electronics projects that were completed successfully and the soldering Iron user had zero clue about how the item worked. #None the less, they are on the air and safe, and about as spectrally pure as needed by the FCC rules.

Thanks for proving the point.
If they don't know why the widget does what it does how do they fix it when it isn't running like it should? Just start swapping parts?

I work in the IT depratment of a large utility company. We lease all of our computers and that hardware is serviced by an in house contractor.

I can tell you that the answer they give to almost all hardware problems are to re-image the hard drive or change the motherboard. There is no real trouble shooting.

For instance the manufacturer changed the Gigabit ethernet chip on the motherboard and didn't tell anybody. This change raised all sorts of hell with certain networked apps we run because of driver incompatibility with the new hardware. 5 minutes of proper trouble shooting found the answer compared to a day and a half of swapping motherboards, imaging drives, and hoping.

[N5PVL]

Fred von Gortler sounds like another DHS grant money grubber to me. - They'll say anything to get that grant money flowing through their hands in the obvious hope that some of it will stick there. Amateur Radio needs DHS grant-grubbers about like it needs cancer, or city and county emplyees being forced to get ham tickets so that they can exclude the real hams and control that money money money!

First you argue in favor of deregulation, and now you argue in favor a straight selloff of our spectrum, across the board.

It's really amazing how it never seems to occur to you to just let amateur radio be amateur radio, and forget all about the CB mentality, or the money grubbing.

I'm just glad that it's you and not me that has to go around like that... For my part, I'll just stick with ham radio.

[WA0LYK]

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Dec. 25 2006,23:13)]30+ years ago when I got my first phone, the "technical knowledge" required
The problem here Tim is that you're conveniently ignoring the simple fact that your example doesn't hold water because the very questions you used in your example are still on the extra exam.

The exam is no easier than it was in the 60s and it has always been pretty easy. On the other hand, the industry left the amateur behind in the 70s. Even my undergraduate work in electronics from the 70s is pretty much irrelevant to the vast majority of today's electronics.

The cell phone that I'm working on now has four radios, Tim, and two cpus. It is, as are all modern cell phones, a mixed analog/digital design, and it has to be certified three different ways before it can be used in the United States. Not a single smith chart was calculated in its design. Nobody's calculated any bessel functions.

On the other hand, a couple million lines of Verilog have been written, along with Mathlab models, and more milliions of lines of code in three different programming languages. It runs a distributed operating system every bit as sophisticated as the one on your PC.

This is modern RF electrical engineering, Tim: Verilog and Mathlab; C programming and ghz clock rates.

The FCC "doesn't care" for the same reason I don't: the industry left amateur radio in the dust thirty years ago and hasn't looked back.
All your examples are merely statements that the tools today for applying fundamental electrical concepts are better. No one has ever stated that the tests for an amateur license requires knowledge of how to use advanced software tools to design electrical/electronic devices.

Your own arguments, however, make the case that the current amateur tests ONLY check for the barest minimum of knowledge. That is all that is required by ITU treaty. I don't see the logic in saying that knowledge and tools are advancing yet we need to make the tests easier or eliminate them entirely.

The fundamental concepts of RF and electrical circuitry have not changed. Ohm's law, impedance, DC/AC circuit analysis, etc. are still valid concepts even if they are more easily dealt with by advanced programming tools. The fact that a software algorithm can more accurately simulate a transfer function for a resonant circuit doesn't change the fundamental concept of resonance.

I see no reason to change the current amateur testing regimen based upon your observations. If anything, your comments would be the basis for increasing the difficulty of current tests.

The only logical way to conclude that the tests should be easier is for the fundamental basis and purpose statements of Part 97 to be changed in such a way as to remove the requirements for trained technicians and electronic experts. This would by definition move us toward what the Citizen Band services require, i.e. no knowledge of how the radio you are using works.

Jim
WA0LYK

[K0RGR]

Fortunately, each generation has attracted a fairly significant number of theoretical experts. The current generation is no different, though as a percentage of the ham population, these experts may be a smaller minority than they've been in the past.

Many years ago, I worked for a microwave components company. I was fresh out of junior college with NO formal electronics training at the time. My new employer decided that my freshly minted Extra Class ticket was sufficient proof of basic RF knowledge.

In my department, there were 5 hams. Three of us were technicians - we carried out the directions given to us by our engineers/scientists. The work involved tuning and testing space qualified microwave components of various types. I learned my job mostly from these guys.

The other two hams were in the 'expert' class. One was a Phd in math who wrote the design software for our custom components, and the other was one of the company founders, with a background as a professor at Stanford, I believe.

I think that illustrates the breadth of experience and knowledge of the ham radio of the 70's. Even then, though, we who worked in the real 'radio' industry were in the minority.

Today's ham is less likely to work in the radio field than before, but still likely to be involved in some technical pursuit. My ham club in the 60's had one guy who really worked in 'radio' at the engineering/design level, and this was in Silicon Valley. Many of us were electronic technicians of various kinds.

I'm no longer in Silicon Valley, but I know at least two of our club members are radio technicians, now. Most of us still work in some kind of technical job, and we've got several bonafide 'engineers' - perhaps more than we did in the 60's.

I don't know if any of us could draw a working schematic of a basic transmitter from memory. And while I've often thought that would be great knowledge to have in case I'm ever ship-wrecked and need to build a transmitter from scratch, I have only tried to memorize the circuits a couple times.

[KD5NCO]

Well thanks Charles for finding one thing in my long thoughts that you disagree with and write about it here.

Can I take it then that the other 12~15 points I try to make are acceptable to you as rational, logical, and need addressing also?

I personally think that the issue you are talking about and the $$$ in grant money is a big mistake. #I am no fan of the ARRL's actions in these matters, and I let them know it.

I am guilty of using Home-Land Defense as too broad a term for you. Sorry, by this "term" I mean that we NEED to be a much more active force in all the Emergency Communications venues. As far as I know in America today that all comes under the control of HomeLand Defense.

I strongly agree that we should not blur/muddy the EmCom responsibility's and expectations by becoming a "paid (off) staff" for legitimate Government safety and relief communications functions.

Pick apart the rest of my long note please...stop being a arrogant ass, and engage in a adult conversation.

The world moved on, the culture changed, we are in danger of loosing a special privilege. I do not believe it comes from the direction you are saying. I do agree that part of your idea has merit and that sooner or later we will see further de-regulation. I find your analysis of WHY completely wrong, from my perspective. #

Do you plan on just sitting behind your monitor and lamenting the past and fretting the future? Have you really already shrugged your shoulders and given up. Do you think that by impugning me, calling me names, and disrespecting my opinions that I am going away?

Stop believing I am some wet nosed petulant child who has nothing to contribute. I am equally entitled to the status and privilege I have as any other citizen who shows and interest, passes the tests, and behaves within the FCC rules and regulations. If you have a problem with that then you have a problem with over half the ARS membership sir...

[KG4CGC]

I agree with the supporters of no testing at all to get on the air. What's the point of a test anyway? Just plug it in a stick a wire in the back of it and you're ready to go! I'd also like to see the VFO channelized to make it easier for my CB buddies to find me on the air. I could just send them an e-mail saying to flip to channel 420 and we could chat it up about using a more powerful Turner+3 mic or who makes the best effects box.
Just think of all the fun to be had dominating a channel on HF and not letting anyone outside of my group talk! Good times for sure! Anyone that disagrees with me or my group on the air will have another thing coming their way if the think they're ever going to get much peace anywhere on the radio!
Testing is so outdated. I like change for the sake of change. If it suits my wants then that's what I want. I'd like to see the FCC get out of the business of testing and enforcement and just focus on selling cell phone spectrum. I mean, radio is nothing but another electronic toy and since when do we need licensing for A TOY? It's just a FREEKING TOY people! Why is that so hard to understand? I don't need a test to use my computer or the internet. I don't need a test to use my stereo or listen to music. I don't need a test to watch television or work a remote. I don't even need a freeking test to fry an egg or cook meat on a gas grill!
My prediction for the next two years is that the FCC will wash its hands of hobby radio and pretty much lump CB and HAM regs into one unified family of "Hobby Radio". It will grow the "Hobby" and give everyone another electronic gadget to blow a few bucks on.
Trust me, it's a good thing.

[KD5NCO]

Tim AB0WR said:

Who gives a Tinkers dam? I do. So do many of the hams I know.

Part 97.1 defines the ARS as a community of licensees providing the country with a pool of trained technicians and electronic experts. While no one is required to be either, if the community provides NO ONE in this classification then the community is not meeting its obligations under the rules and regulations. What is the next conclusion the typical bureaucrat will reach? Of course it will be: -- Why do we need the Service? --

Fred said elsewhere on QRZ:

Years ago the predecessor to the FCC created the ARS and formed a preamble describing the goals or philosophy for the formation of the Amateur Radio Service. Among those was the need for a trained and technically proficient group of radio operators. #They attempted to create an electronics / radio Militia so to speak.

During many of those years America participated in several major wars and we had a method of conscription to service (draft) in place. Under those laws it was possible for the government to press into service (draft), those citizens that had particular, necessary, and useful skills.

Officially the Draft ended in this country over 30 years ago, after Viet Nam, with the creation of the All Volunteer Army in 1974. #During this 30 year period, the need for Morse code proficient operators for air or maritime emergency response and dispatch has reduced to near zero with the advent of other easier to implement and more reliable technological advances. This had a net effect of relieving the ARS from one of our stated reasons to exist. We are no longer needed to receive and de-crypt codes for control of long range bombers. We are no longer needed to man the watch of coastal maritime distress response. We are no longer expected to lead the way in technological break through in the radio art.

Perversely I think that the FCC and other government folks are too busy and dim witted to realize these facts... I am concerned that if we continue to scream and shout about it here in these public forums that we may bring about our own demise...because Tim you are 100% correct!

Tim: This sounds like the person who gets their car towed to the mechanic where they find out they should get the oil changed more often than every five years. If they don't understand how they work then how do they tell when they aren't working right? How do they take care of them correctly? How do you know someone didn't sell you an amp with the input connector wired directly through to the output with a 60 watt lamp inside so you can see the tube "glow"?

You are doing nothing more than making excuses for the lazy.

No sir I am not making excuses for the "lazy". #I am pointing out that there is a large number of your peers that are in fact already "appliance operators" and have been since the mid 70s with very good and reliable "store bought" equipment. Many of them may have known these advanced concepts at one time, but the vast majority take for granted that as long as their contacts give them good signal reports, then the station is working as designed.

Almost every weekend I am party to a 10 or 15 person round table QSO on 75Meters where I listen in and add my .02c via a 2M link to my Elmer. #Many times one of the OM had a problem and I offer suggestions on what to check and how to test things. #Tim, these are your old school peers I am referring to. They bought a Icom, Kenwood, or Yaesu years ago, opened it up, realized they had no business in there and never intend to open it up again.

This issue in NOT due to de-regulation, dumbing down, or any other cultural factor you perceive. The world, especially America, moved much too fast from 1959 to 1989 for any "hobbyist" to keep up. Certainly those raising a family a