What do you think should happen?

[kg4kww]

PORT ARTHUR, Texas (AP) -- In the middle of Joshua Bush's forehead, two inches above his eyes, lies the evidence that prosecutors say could send the teenager to prison for attempted murder: a 9 mm bullet, lodged just under the skin.

Police want bullet in teen's forehead (http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/12/21/teen.bullet.ap/index.html)

[n2ize]

It's an interesting case. But we have to remember he is only suspect in this case and this raises an interesting situation. How far can the state go to try and gain a conviction ? If permitted this can set a new precedent in which the state can order you to be cut open if and when they feel the evidence may be inside of you. As despicable as this crime may be I think that forcing an medical operation upon someone is pushing the envelope a wee bit too far and can ultimately set a dangerous precedent.

[N3ATS]

No, they should not be allowed to cut him open to remove the bullet against his will.

What's next? You can be opened up to find evidence of what restaurant you were at?

But, he's a black man, and this IS in Texas after all, so he has to be guilty. Right Hoss?

[n2ize]

Where is Judge Roy Bean when ya need him ?? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kf6rdn]

The dude that shot him could always offer to replace it!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KA9VQF]

Clearly if the slug is removed and matched to the used car lot owners firearm the kid will do time. It would place him in the alley where the firefight happened. His alibi of having been sitting on a couch somewhere else and catching the slug in the head would not hold water.

If however the teenager had been killed by the bullet, and it had not passed through his head, the cops would routinely have had it removed post mortem to prove that the used car dealer had indeed fired it, and most likely the family would proceed with a ‘wrongful death’ suit in court.

I’m wondering what type slug it is. Clearly not a black talon. Since the used car dealer is a target shooter perhaps he had a wad cutters in his piece. Maybe he should invest in some hollow points or metal jacketed rounds.

This is a case of ‘if you have done nothing wrong’, to prove his innocence he should comply with having the slug removed and sent to ballistics for comparison.

My best guess is it will indeed prove to be from the car dealers firearm.

[kb1oev]

Quote[/b] (KA9VQF @ Dec. 22 2006,05:04)]Maybe he should invest in some hollow points or metal jacketed rounds.
This is slightly off topic, but wouldn't hollow points be a better choice as opposed to metal jacket rounds?

I believe that hollow points would tend to expand on impact and cause more damage to a person, and metal jacket rounds would tend to hold their shape and pass through a person with less damage. Unless of course you are talking about softnose rounds which have a lead tip and a metal jacket around the rest of the bullet. I think they have an effect similar to hollow point.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

73's de kb1oev

[KA9VQF]

Yes I was thinking the metal jacketed soft nose type. They penetrate petty nicely then tend to disintegrate.

They are a type of slug I was not allowed to carry when I was a LEO. We were only allowed to carry plain round tip lead slugs.

[n0ov]

Per title of the original post, what do I think should happen?

I think we should watch Gregory do the holiday Elf Dance

Merry Christmas Gregory and thanks for the 2006 QRZ news feed http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[kg4kww]

n0ov plz remove your link to the Elf Dance and my photo from it. You don't have permission to use it and I find the use of it to be somewhat insulting.

As for the kid, all I can say is that he has one real hard head. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[KA9VQF]

Greg,
Your barking in the dark here.

I’m afraid you lost the sole ownership/copyrights of that photo when you posted it. I’m pretty sure it is in the public domain and fair game for anyone with a computer.

[n0jaa]

Quote[/b] (KA9VQF @ Dec. 22 2006,08:04)]This is a case of ‘if you have done nothing wrong’, to prove his innocence he should comply with having the slug removed and sent to ballistics for comparison. #
This is one of those great misnomers that the American Sheeple have been led to believe.

One does not prove innocence. #One proves guilt. #Remember the notion that one is innocent until proven guilty?

It is just as ludicrous as suggesting that someone has something to hide merely because they wish to preserve their privacy.

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Dec. 21 2006,15:42)]PORT ARTHUR, Texas (AP) -- In the middle of Joshua Bush's forehead, two inches above his eyes, lies the evidence that prosecutors say could send the teenager to prison for attempted murder: a 9 mm bullet, lodged just under the skin.

Police want bullet in teen's forehead (http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/12/21/teen.bullet.ap/index.html)
Is that a bullet in your forehead, or are you just glad to see me?

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

eric

Quote[/b] (kb1oev @ Dec. 22 2006,05:29)]Quote[/b] (KA9VQF @ Dec. 22 2006,05:04)]Maybe he should invest in some hollow points or metal jacketed rounds.
This is slightly off topic, but wouldn't hollow points be a better choice as opposed to metal jacket rounds?

I believe that hollow points would tend to expand on impact and cause more damage to a person, and metal jacket rounds would tend to hold their shape and pass through a person with less damage. Unless of course you are talking about softnose rounds which have a lead tip and a metal jacket around the rest of the bullet. I think they have an effect similar to hollow point.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

73's de kb1oev
It all depends on what you want to do.

I suspect that it is a 9mm Makerov round, a less powerful than the standard 9mm Parabellum. They are known for incidents like this, indeed a US soldier in Iraq had a round hit him in the face and get lodged in his sinus cavity...he didnt even know he had been hit. Needless to say the Iraqi saw him still coming and surrendered!

I actually very my carry rounds based on season. The same round that has good performance through a T-short may lose a good deal of expansion when it goes through heavier clothing, and in some cases FMJ is the way to go.

Some people also advocate carrying a mix of round types.

[n0ov]

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Dec. 21 2006,09:18)]n0ov plz remove your link to the Elf Dance and my photo from it. You don't have permission to use it and I find the use of it to be somewhat insulting.

As for the kid, all I can say is that he has one real hard head. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Greg,

I removed it because you requested, not because I don't have permission. Message stays the same -- Merry Christmas

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (KA9VQF @ Dec. 22 2006,05:04)]Clearly if the slug is removed and matched to the used car lot owners firearm the kid will do time. It would place him in the alley where the firefight happened. His alibi of having been sitting on a couch somewhere else and catching the slug in the head would not hold water.

If however the teenager had been killed by the bullet, and it had not passed through his head, the cops would routinely have had it removed post mortem to prove that the used car dealer had indeed fired it, and most likely the family would proceed with a ‘wrongful death’ suit in court.

I’m wondering what type slug it is. Clearly not a black talon. Since the used car dealer is a target shooter perhaps he had a wad cutters in his piece. Maybe he should invest in some hollow points or metal jacketed rounds.

This is a case of ‘if you have done nothing wrong’, to prove his innocence he should comply with having the slug removed and sent to ballistics for comparison.

My best guess is it will indeed prove to be from the car dealers firearm.
He is not required to prove his innocence. He is presently innocent. It's up to the cops to prove his guilt. The question is, do the cops have a right to force you to undergo invasive surgery so they can prove your guilt. I say a big NO!! Allowing this can set a dangerous precident implying that you have absolutely no sanctity whatsoever. I don;t think I'd want to live in a country where the cops can force you to go under the knife simply because they feel it might prove guilt. As I said, thatis stretching the envelope a wee bit too far.

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Dec. 22 2006,12:03)]Quote[/b] (KA9VQF @ Dec. 22 2006,05:04)]Clearly if the slug is removed and matched to the used car lot owners firearm the kid will do time. It would place him in the alley where the firefight happened. His alibi of having been sitting on a couch somewhere else and catching the slug in the head would not hold water.

If however the teenager had been killed by the bullet, and it had not passed through his head, the cops would routinely have had it removed post mortem to prove that the used car dealer had indeed fired it, and most likely the family would proceed with a ‘wrongful death’ suit in court.

I’m wondering what type slug it is. Clearly not a black talon. Since the used car dealer is a target shooter perhaps he had a wad cutters in his piece. Maybe he should invest in some hollow points or metal jacketed rounds.

This is a case of ‘if you have done nothing wrong’, to prove his innocence he should comply with having the slug removed and sent to ballistics for comparison.

My best guess is it will indeed prove to be from the car dealers firearm.
He is not required to prove his innocence. He is presently innocent. It's up to the cops to prove his guilt. The question is, do the cops have a right to force you to undergo invasive surgery so they can prove your guilt. I say a big NO!! Allowing this can set a dangerous precident implying that you have absolutely no sanctity whatsoever. I don;t think I'd want to live in a country where the cops can force you to go under the knife simply because they feel it might prove guilt. As I said, thatis stretching the envelope a wee bit too far.
Well, we can and do require people to submit to blood tests where blood is removed.

Given the whole circumstance, I could see a warrant being valid. He lied about the nature of the wound, he was shot in the same time frame, and others have identified him as being present, and he even admits being a part of the robbery.

[kl7aj]

Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Dec. 22 2006,12:03)]Quote[/b] (KA9VQF @ Dec. 22 2006,05:04)]Clearly if the slug is removed and matched to the used car lot owners firearm the kid will do time. It would place him in the alley where the firefight happened. His alibi of having been sitting on a couch somewhere else and catching the slug in the head would not hold water.

If however the teenager had been killed by the bullet, and it had not passed through his head, the cops would routinely have had it removed post mortem to prove that the used car dealer had indeed fired it, and most likely the family would proceed with a ‘wrongful death’ suit in court.

I’m wondering what type slug it is. Clearly not a black talon. Since the used car dealer is a target shooter perhaps he had a wad cutters in his piece. Maybe he should invest in some hollow points or metal jacketed rounds. #

This is a case of ‘if you have done nothing wrong’, to prove his innocence he should comply with having the slug removed and sent to ballistics for comparison. #

My best guess is it will indeed prove to be from the car dealers firearm.
He is not required to prove his innocence. He is presently innocent. It's up to the cops to prove his guilt. The question is, do the cops have a right to force you to undergo invasive surgery so they can prove your guilt. I say a big NO!! Allowing this can set a dangerous precident implying that you have absolutely no sanctity whatsoever. I don;t think I'd want to live in a country where the cops can force you to go under the knife simply because they feel it might prove guilt. As I said, thatis stretching the envelope a wee bit too far.
Like we say up here, "If you don't carry a badge, you don't gotta read 'em their rights."

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ac3p]

I think this would definitely fall under the "unusual search and seizure" category in not unreasonable..

[ne6ao]

as someone who reloaded his own rounds and set up different mediums to teach my kids abt the real effect of a bullet on impact.9mm,124grJHP,carried by a friend in the FBI says that is his preference,. I reloaded for .357 and 38 same bullets were used all the way from 148 gr wad cutters and 158gr wadcutters to xtp bullets 110,125,158gr copper jacketed hps.They all penetrated 1/8 in steel,at 20 yrds,except for the wadcutters,which I loaded for 700-900fps.so even if the guy used wad cutters or semiwadcutters,which penetrated phone books at 25 yrds ,the kid should be hurt alot worse,or a very bad primer or load of powder,I cant explain more dont have all the data.A full metal jacket will go right through the human body if loaded at max levels if 158gror a 45 but if they hit bone most times would ricoshay in the body,light plus p loads which were developed for the 38 special cause the 38 load just left a lot to be desired on a marginal round,.If your a law enforcement officer your gonna shoot to kill,cause ya dont want the guy to be able to return fire so you want a round thats gonna penetrate and expand on impact and muzzle load to knock the person down,reloading is a fun way to make noise and also the longer I did it,the more I hoped that I would never have to harm someone .I didnt suffer from the John Wayne complex,needin 1000 rnds just in case,type guy.Bullets do crazy things sometimes .But if push came to shove,defence of my family would take precedence.I sold my pistols,when I realized that I wanted to spend my money on more sedate things like ham radio gear and grand kids.

[KA9VQF]

When I was a small town deputy in northwest Wisconsin, the idea was we didn’t necessarily want to kill perpetrators. It was fine to hurt them enough that they would give up.

I always thought that if someone were trying to kill me so they could get away with whatever crime they had committed, I should be able to use whatever it took to make them stop, including killing them if necessary.

My superiors had different ideas.

From what I’m hearing from people still in law enforcement back in the area now, they can and do carry metal jacketed and even hollow point rounds.

Also, most carry the .40 Glock semi automatic pistol.

NO semi automatics were allowed in the mid to late ‘70’s when I was doing it. All I was allowed was a .357 but the rounds had to be .38 specials solid lead round tip, and I had better not even have anything else in the squad or on my person should I ever have an instance where I actually had to fire my sidearm while on duty.

Fortunately I never had to while on duty. There were very few occasions when I even un-holstered it during a shift.

Now, off duty was a whole ‘nother story. I taught myself to shoot left handed nearly as well as I could right handed. I wanted to be ambidextrous when it came to firing a hand gun.

And yes, I entered the state law enforcement shooting championships every year. Made the finals a few times.

[KA8DKT]

The TV show "Law and Order" has had two episodes in the last few years that dealt with this very issue. #In both cases there was some kind of physical evidence lodged in the body of a living person and, of course, the prosecution wanted the bullet, and in the more recent show, a piece of glass out and in an evidence bag.

This show is pretty good. #It most certainly cannot be used as legal reference, but issues like these are covered and debated extensively with most all sides of the issue brought into the discussion.

-gary

[kg4kww]

If this is physical evidence of a crime, then I feel the cops have a right to have it. They would have had it if this kid had been killed. right?

BTW this kid has one seriously hard head to stop a slug.

[N7CPC]

Ever been subjected to a cavity search?

I would rather have the surgery!!

Yes, cut the slug out. If for no other reason than the kid's health.

[KI6FFF]

My department issues Winchester SXT Ranger rounds. We are allowed to carry either 45 or 9mm semi. Department policy states that if lethal force is necessary, we shoot to stop the attacker. If he dies, then that's the nature of the business. The rounds we carry are copper flashed versions of the black talon. Extensive research from our rangemasters has determined that the 9mm is just as effective at stopping an attack as the 45. I was involved in a shooting where I shot the suspect through the front windshield of his car and killed him. Many of the rounds went through his hands and down his arm, exiting the elbow, as well as through the headrest. I was also able to shoot him center mass as well. My partner who also shot was using a 45 and shooting at about the same angle. The autopsy discovered that my rounds were the lethal ones and they plucked the 45's off of the suspect's ribcage. Just an example of the speed and weight of the different rounds and what certain barriers will do to a round.

[k5xit]

Quote[/b] (KI6FFF @ Dec. 25 2006,20:56)]My department issues Winchester SXT Ranger rounds. #We are allowed to carry either 45 or 9mm semi. #Department policy states that if lethal force is necessary, we shoot to stop the attacker. #If he dies, then that's the nature of the business. The rounds we carry are copper flashed versions of the black talon. Extensive research from our rangemasters has determined that the 9mm is just as effective at stopping an attack as the 45. I was involved in a shooting where I shot the suspect through the front windshield of his car and killed him. #Many of the rounds went through his hands and down his arm, exiting the elbow, as well as through the headrest. I was also able to shoot him center mass as well. #My partner who also shot was using a 45 and shooting at about the same angle. #The autopsy discovered that my rounds were the lethal ones and they plucked the 45's off of the suspect's ribcage. Just an example of the speed and weight of the different rounds and what certain barriers will do to a round.
If you have to shoot I want a .40 something with +p HP

[kf6rdn]

Technically there should be enough evidence to warrant a.. well warrant, just like any other search and seizure.

If there warrant enough evidence, the the head is off limits, then he needs an illegal search, like he needs a hole in the head.

But if there's enough evidence, then as long as it is safe to do so, the bullet should be seized.

From the legal dept at "Bondo"..

[K0HWY]

Tammie Bush: "We know he's not a criminal. He's a good kid."

For some reason Tammie, I'm having a hard time believing that your son acquired this bullet during his last hunting trip. I could be wrong though.

[n2ize]

Quote[/b] (KF4PEP @ Dec. 22 2006,12:18)]Quote[/b] (n2ize @ Dec. 22 2006,12:03)]Quote[/b] (KA9VQF @ Dec. 22 2006,05:04)]Clearly if the slug is removed and matched to the used car lot owners firearm the kid will do time. It would place him in the alley where the firefight happened. His alibi of having been sitting on a couch somewhere else and catching the slug in the head would not hold water.

If however the teenager had been killed by the bullet, and it had not passed through his head, the cops would routinely have had it removed post mortem to prove that the used car dealer had indeed fired it, and most likely the family would proceed with a ‘wrongful death’ suit in court.

I’m wondering what type slug it is. Clearly not a black talon. Since the used car dealer is a target shooter perhaps he had a wad cutters in his piece. Maybe he should invest in some hollow points or metal jacketed rounds.

This is a case of ‘if you have done nothing wrong’, to prove his innocence he should comply with having the slug removed and sent to ballistics for comparison.

My best guess is it will indeed prove to be from the car dealers firearm.
He is not required to prove his innocence. He is presently innocent. It's up to the cops to prove his guilt. The question is, do the cops have a right to force you to undergo invasive surgery so they can prove your guilt. I say a big NO!! Allowing this can set a dangerous precident implying that you have absolutely no sanctity whatsoever. I don;t think I'd want to live in a country where the cops can force you to go under the knife simply because they feel it might prove guilt. As I said, thatis stretching the envelope a wee bit too far.
Well, we can and do require people to submit to blood tests where blood is removed.

Given the whole circumstance, I could see a warrant being valid. He lied about the nature of the wound, he was shot in the same time frame, and others have identified him as being present, and he even admits being a part of the robbery.
There is a difference between a blood test where a tiny painless needle prick goes in and forcing someone to go under the knife for surgery. See how much you like it if one day the cops drag you or one of your kids into the hospital and force you to be cut open because they SUSPECT you of something.

Does the fact that the hospitals they brought him to did not perform the operation tell you anything ? Liability perhaps ? Every operation carries risks, potentially serious risks. You can die under the knife, you can die from the anesthetics, you can end up with serious complications, i.e.infection, paralysis, death. Normally when a person submits to an operation the person acknowledges those risks,in writing. Who is going to bear the responsibility for performing the operation against the persons consent,much less if something serious goes wrong ? The surgeon ? The hospital ? The cops ? Nobody perhaps ? What if the operation is performed, the guy turns out to be innocent, and a serious complication arises ? Who is going to be punished for crippling an innocent man ? Are the cops going to go to jail ?

Do you see where allowing this could have some very negative implications. As despicable as it may seem to some out here, there are sometimes viable reasons for NOT allowing law enforcement to do whatever it pleases whenever it pleases. Sure, it might be greatif law enforcement could crack every single case and punish every last lawbreaker. But sometimes the scope of what law enforcement can do has to be restricted for the overall good of society, as horrible a thought as that may seem.

[n8yx]

Quote[/b] (kb1oev @ Dec. 22 2006,05:29)]Quote[/b] (KA9VQF @ Dec. 22 2006,05:04)]Maybe he should invest in some hollow points or metal jacketed rounds.
This is slightly off topic, but wouldn't hollow points be a better choice as opposed to metal jacket rounds?
For maximum penetration through bone - solids or fully jacketed

For maximum expansion in soft tissue - hollowpoint or skivved

If a round which is quick-expanding (ex: HP) hits thick bone it tends to blow apart without penetrating deeply. Conversely, a solid or jacketed round will often traverse a soft-tissue mass and exit without doing substantial damage. That is, unless it hits a bone or punctures a vital organ on its way through.

There are a number of tales floating around about brown bears which "...took a whole cylinder full of .44Mag at close range and kept on coming..."

Most hunters who use that caliber tend to use rapidly-expanding bullets such as Hornady's XTP series. Hit a bruin in the cranium with one of them - even when fired at 1500+ FPS - and he'll take it as a bad joke.

Send a 'FailSafe' or similar solid (bonded) bullet at the same velocity and you'll likely drop said bear if hit in the head, though I would prefer to hit one in the vital area immediately behind the ribcage.

[n8yx]

Quote[/b] ]We are allowed to carry either 45 or 9mm semi.

If I had to choose, it would be a .45...specifically, a Para-Ordnance 14-45 LDA. The samples I've shot are darned accurate. And they keep on working.

Quote[/b] ]Department policy states that if lethal force is necessary, we shoot to stop the attacker. If he dies, then that's the nature of the business.

Ssshhhh....don't let that get out. Your superiors will be accused of applying common sense to departmental operations and as such will probably be relieved of command ...

Quote[/b] ]The rounds we carry are copper flashed versions of the black talon.

Equipped with a tungsten core, as the so-called "Glaser Safety Slug" is? In that case they would be categorized as armor-piercers...a whole 'nother class of ammo indeed. Guaranteed to penetrate the beanie of the most determined felon or strung-out suspect.

Quote[/b] ]Extensive research from our rangemasters has determined that the 9mm is just as effective at stopping an attack as the 45.

If said data isn't 'department classified', I would love to see it. Particularly - types of rounds used in each test (bullet, muzzle velocity, point-of-impact velocity; estimated or measured), KP calculations for each round type, test-mass density and thickness...cavitation and expansion data for each caliber/round tested...etc.

Assuming the SXT's were used in in those tests, I can chrony them if necessary - but it would be nice to see which loadings (if any) they were compared with.