Morse Code Eliminated by FCC [Archive] - Page 5

KB1SF

12-22-2006, 11:51 PM

Quote[/b] (wd8bmp @ Dec. 22 2006,04:39)]learning cw is not easy, just like loosing weight. If loosing weight was so easy there would be no fat people! For some to say, today's generation is lazy because they do not care for the code or because it's too hard to learn, I ask the same question: why are you overweight?(To hard to loose it?) When is the last time your feet saw a treadmill? While some people having this issue with no code, they are the same people who are overweight, and would percieve them as also being "lazy" if you use the same theory here. Anything that requires hard work, learning cw, loosing weight, etc #people do not wish to tackle it.

Instead of all the hot air postings, and hearing all the time about aches and pains, get off your butt, turn off the hf rig for an hour and use a freaking treadmill !
Gosh...if it were only that simple. #Unfortunately, there is more to life than "working" at it.

To continue with your "fat person" analogy, how do you explain the fact that some people can eat like pigs and never gain a pound, while others eat like birds, exercise every day, but are still massively overweight? #

In the latter case, the truth is that no amount of "work" is going to change things.#That's because such people are the way they are...just because. #Call it genetics, the “way they are born" or what have you. The simple truth is that most other people on the planet are simply NOT put together exactly like you are. #We aren’t all like Amateur Radio transcievers that come off the assembly line with the same parts list, the same knobs on our “front panels” and the exact same genetic programming uploaded into our memory banks.

And the same holds true for learning Morse. #To some of us, like me (and apparently you) learning it was a "snap". #But, to others, it can be days, weeks, months and even years of absolute frustration, resulting in failure after failure. #And there are any number of widely recognized, certifiable medical conditions that can make it so for otherwise “ordinary” people.

I suppose it would be different if Morse were still a "must have" skill in today's Amateur Radio. #However, as the FCC noted in their latest Report and Order, Morse is now just one of many different modes we Hams use to communicate. #It simply is no longer a “must have” requirement to be a successful, law-abiding member of our Service.

Learning Morse is an inherent human psychomotor skill. #And the ease of learning it varies widely throughout the population based on a whole host of unique human factors, many of which are completely beyond our control. #My guess is that these two facts (along with the fact that there was no longer an international requirement that they do so) were probably among the most compelling reasons why the FCC finally dropped Morse testing entirely. #

Now, granted, many overweight people are that way because they eat too much. #And many people are simply too lazy to get up off their finals to learn Morse.

But, laying that judgment on EVERYONE who happens to be overweight or who simply can't learn Morse no matter how hard they "work" at it is disingenuous at best and downright discriminatory at worst. #

Sadly, it also indicates a distressing ignorance of the human condition.

Keith
KB1SF / VA3KSF

kc7gnm

12-23-2006, 12:02 AM

Quote[/b] (K2FX @ Dec. 22 2006,13:48)]Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Dec. 22 2006,10:35)]Quote[/b] (K2FX @ Dec. 22 2006,13:12)]Well this whole no-code thing has had a few days to now sink in. #Am I happy about it? NO. #Is there anything that can be done about it after the fact? NO, other than petitioning the FCC for tougher Radio Theory testing standards. #But I look at it like this. #Even if the new HF licensees will not have to do the CW, I can still be proud of the fact the I DID! #I went to an FCC office and sat for Theory and CW tests. #I did the 20WPM. #I did not have a "memorization pool". #I LEARNED the theory. #The new people will never be able to say that, and they may be fine with it, but in my heart, I know what I have accomplished, and no FCC restructuring will ever be able to take that away from me. #Hopefully some of the new people will go beyond the memorization, and will learn. #This hobby depends on it. #

Finally, everyone here is forgetting one really important thing. #You all talk about the Hobby aspect of Ham Radio. #But the reality is that Ham Radio is ALSO a very viable and needed Public Service First and foremost! #You need to stand ready to provide emergency communications whenever you can. #If you are not properly trained, how can you possibly expect to step up when needed? #Code or No-Code, you will be on HF, but you BETTER do the right thing when you get there, and do all you can to better this hobby. #I will never look down upon anyone who is striving to learn, and will help anyway that I can. #The posts coming from many of the current no-code people on this thread have me concerned that this attitude will carry over to HF, and HF is NO PLACE for that happen. #Please do HAM RADIO PROUD!
K2FX, Most of the whining and complaining seems to be coming from the Extras and Generals that already have code. I have only seen maybe 1 or 2 techs that have left a sour tast in my mouth but I can count about 20 or more on the other side fo the fence that are worse than they are. What needs to happen is the coded hf folks need to embrace these guys and make them feel at home instead of spouting all the drivel they have been doing this last week. On another thread I have already had to put a no-code tech in his place because he was acting like a total jerk about the whole thing. He is the reason why a bunch of coded hams are bitter about this R&O. I am not bitter and I am not going to let one person ruin it for all the techs that truly want to come to hf and have some fun.

You are correct that it is not ony a hobby but a valued public service when needed. Katrina pointed that fact out big time, however don't be one of the ones that say it was because of CW that all that was possible. I don't think they used much CW if any at all during that disaster. Fact is if a ham can demonstrate proper radio proceedures on the air then he is welcome. If he brings his garbage on the air then the FCC will have more money in their coffers from all the enforcement actions they will levy on these guys.
I don't believe that there was much CW used during the Katrina disaster as you stated, but there is still no better way to communicate using low power than CW, and for that reason, whether is tested in the future or not does not diminish its importance. #Remember, CW was the ORIGINAL "Data Mode". #The CW bands are plenty crowded these days, and that is not going to change, and neither is the Public Service role that ALL Ham Operators play. Thanks for your comments, and have a wonderful Holiday Season. #73's from my shack to yours! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
CW may be the original data mode but it is out dated now. You don't see a bunch of horse and buggys running around on the roads now a days and it was the original transportation? All I am saying is why test one mode and not other modes? Why not test someone on PSK31? You might not do that mode but I sure do and I think they should test on that. What about packet, APRS, Echolink, etc? There are plenty of modes out there in ham radio to use and they are not afforded the same status as your precious morse code. I for one do not use the outdated mode. I don't like it and you will never catch me on the air using it. I like the digital and voice modes. If you want to catch me try APRS. I run an APRS gateway here in AZ. You guys need to stop and think about what you are saying. MORSE CODE IS A MODE PERIOD. It should not be forced down peoples throats just like digital modes should not be forced down yours. If you like code that is fine. I don't care but do not force others to do the same thing that we had to do and should not have done either. I was all for the removal of the code test years ago but I did not want to wait. If folks wanted to wait then that was fine too. What I have read on this thread and the other threads is everyone saying that they should have kept the 5wpm for extra. Give me a good reason why they should have and not because it gives them something to work for because sorry that just does not float.

The FCC has spoken and nothing you guys moaning about the code test being eliminated is gonna change it. The WRC2003 saw that back then as well so why can't you accept what the world wants?

w7imc

12-23-2006, 12:20 AM

Couldn't resist this one. Passed my code test 5 weeks ago and upgraded to General at the same time. Have not used morse code since and am having way too much fun on phone. With only 100 watts output power and a wire antenna phone will only take me so far. If I were to keep the same rig and antenna, then code might be something to pursue for those DX contacts. Just another tool in the tool bag. btw. retired from the military and vaguely recall what a vacuum tube was when they showed us one in the school museum back in 82'. Spent the first few weeks on 17 meters and met some very helpful and friendly operators. Put up a 20 meter wire and experienced the "nets". Something for everyone (although still trying to figure out why so many operators want to talk about the last medical procedure they had?) and I'm sure the new class will establish their own nets according to the interest of their peer group. On a final note most of the cb operators I've meet were very courteous and helpful when needed. Guess it depends on where you consider people inherently good or inherently evil. 73's

N0TTW

12-23-2006, 01:16 PM

Quote[/b] (ke4qdc @ Dec. 20 2006,12:46)]
If feeding off of their every word means putting up with belittling, harassment, discrimination, and rancor, then no, I will not listen. And that is the opinion that many newcoming hams have taken because that is what they were offered.

Maybe because it is this "rub your nose in it" attitude that the NCTs on this forum do. If you put bowel movement in, you get bowel movement out.
Quote[/b] ]
This has been relatively evident in this thread, and every one prior where the NCT - a term which should be used no more in 30 days - is the subject of multiple points of assault, both on the radio and on the Internet. He or she is not good enough, blah blah blah.

Your correct... many will become NCG and NCE... I'll assume you'll figure those two out. Many will also bring nothing to this service but take up frequency space. There will be more 75/80m crud to happen on more bands because of lowered standards.
Quote[/b] ]
Tests are easy.....blah blah blah.

Your correct again... they are easy and the answers are public domain. The tests don't even ask questions on todays technology like Networking (what is the OSI model? How does OSI apply to radio? What layer is radio in OSI?), PSK (what is PSK? #What is the diffence between PSK31 and PSK63?) or Software Defined Radio ( what is quadrature reception? What is the phase difference with Q and I? What's is Nyquist?).

If your going to drop one tough hurdle to get a license, you need too reset the standards of what amateur radio should be, technically elite individuals. Anyone can push a button, but can that same person make a better button?
Quote[/b] ]
Regardless, #there will now be even more group of hams:

More groups of hams that don't know the difference between a linear power supply to a switching power supply, TTL to CMOS, Collpits and a Hartley oscillator, etc, etc, etc.
Quote[/b] ]
1. #The group that got a license before the No-Code Tech license came out. They are elite because they had to take a test in front of the FCC and pass a 20WPM code test and used glow in the dark radios with tubes.

At least many can answer the questions in my previous paragraph. Or at least have general knowledge.
Quote[/b] ]
2. #The group that got a license after the No-Code Tech, and only had to pass a 5 WPM test. Not as good as the 20 WPM licensee and they feel the burn.

I actually belong too this group. I did pass my 13 wpm test but failed the written before this came into effect. I spent 3 years trying to get my code to this speed. Nothing doesn't come overnight. But I did become a General after this ruling happened. I actually delayed it because it didn't feel right to upgrade. I then waited a year (After getting some experience) and took my Extra and got it.
Quote[/b] ]
3. #The group of hams in 2007 who will upgrade their licenses and use HF without a Morse Code test.

A minority will bring knowledge during the upgrades, but as I said before, most will take up space. Unless they are truly in this field (Astrophysics) and are going to provide this service the next field of space exploration technology.
Quote[/b] ]
All three will be on HF, and will commingle together in these groups; heaven forbid they actually talk to each other. Maybe its time to let things heal and work together again....

That will happen, for now.

But after reading all these posts, I think I will file my petition after reading those who are just "rubbing others noses" because they get one less test to take and feel they are on equal ground.

Personally, I think Extra should be for the elite and the more I think about it, I don't deserve being an Extra. The code should stay with this license!

Extra licensee's should be the embodiment of amateur radio. They should know morse code, answer many technical questions in a variety of fields related to radio, be designers of advance circuits, keep up with technology and the like. And the most important of all... design the tests to reach the level they are at.

The problem now is those who design those written tests are in it for the money! Plain and simple! Not for the betterment of this service.

Time for me to do my part!

kc6ueu

12-23-2006, 03:52 PM

Knowing "code" has nothing to do with "TALKING" on the radio. Its good to know BUT one can talk without knowing code.

w0vu

12-23-2006, 04:59 PM

Quote[/b] (kc6ueu @ Dec. 22 2006,09:52)]Knowing "code" has nothing to do with "TALKING" on the radio. Its good to know BUT one can talk without knowing code.
Now, that's a very intelligent statement to say the least.

Happy Holidays to all
Bob w0vu

AD7BK

12-23-2006, 07:01 PM

The real enemy is MAIN.NET BPL no one seems to be talking about that.... Like Osama. What ever happened to him? I guess they are not as important as the drop of Morse code. Well, wait and see. If you hear a new general out there doing something they should not be doing, don't start screaming at them instead. Be a fellow ham and elmer them. Heck with me I had elmers teach me how to use, talk and be on the radio.

I for one welcome the change. Now my friend Dennis can become a General.
David http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

n0klu

12-23-2006, 09:32 PM

A New Record! We made it over 1000 posts! congratulations everyone.:D

kc7gnm

12-23-2006, 09:56 PM

Quote[/b] ]Maybe because it is this "rub your nose in it" attitude that the NCTs on this forum do. If you put bowel movement in, you get bowel movement out.

Most of the ones doing the nose rubbing are the whiney extras that feel they are losing thier precious morse code. Code testing is gone not morse code.

Quote[/b] ]Your correct... many will become NCG and NCE... I'll assume you'll figure those two out. Many will also bring nothing to this service but take up frequency space. There will be more 75/80m crud to happen on more bands because of lowered standards.

No many will become Generals and Extras. It is people like you that put those names on people. I do not see those terms in the FCC database so they do not exist.

Quote[/b] ]More groups of hams that don't know the difference between a linear power supply to a switching power supply, TTL to CMOS, Collpits and a Hartley oscillator, etc, etc, etc.

Now this one has me laughing because I see all these old time extras and Advanced class that do not know what that stuff is either. Even the extras today are appliance operators. Just go look at eham at the repair shop section and see how many hams send their gear off to get repaired instead of trying to repair it themselves. There a a bunch of old timers that do that too. Just because you know this stuff and you are an extra then don't assume they know it.

Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ] #

1. #The group that got a license before the No-Code Tech license came out. They are elite because they had to take a test in front of the FCC and pass a 20WPM code test and used glow in the dark radios with tubes.

At least many can answer the questions in my previous paragraph. Or at least have general knowledge

I am willing to bet money on it that over 50% of extras could not pass the test if it was given to them today. Sorry but your statement is so untrue. Most of these guys don't know any of the new stuff that is on the test today.

Quote[/b] ]But after reading all these posts, I think I will file my petition after reading those who are just "rubbing others noses" because they get one less test to take and feel they are on equal ground.

Personally, I think Extra should be for the elite and the more I think about it, I don't deserve being an Extra. The code should stay with this license!

Go ahead and file. You will be just wasting the FCC's time and energy to read the dribble. I took that test and don't feel one bit bad that the new guys have to take one less test than I did. Get over it and move on. So what if the code is not tested anymore. It was one mode out of many in Ham Radio. The other modes are not afforded the same testing as morse was so why keep the testing of morse?

kc6ueu

12-23-2006, 11:13 PM

I am glad that grammer and/or spelling has been dropped from the code test also.

k9ekg

12-24-2006, 03:29 AM

Quote[/b] (kc6ueu @ Dec. 23 2006,16:13)]I am glad that grammer and/or spelling has been dropped from the code test also.
calling.....kettle.....black....

ab8rx

12-24-2006, 03:54 AM

To CB or not to CB, that is the question!
(With apologies to Shakespeare.)

There's a lot of moaning,groaning and handwringing about the apparent demise of cw now that the FCC has removed morse code testing as a requirement for hf access. Not only that, but they are going to allow technicians who never passed a code test, limited access to the hf bands.(I hear it now:Gasp! Say it isn't so!!)
There seems to be an opinion on some people's part that this will result in us being no more than cb'ers. I disagree, and will try to prove the point.
Let's compare the services, shall we?
CB

No testing,no licensing,no pride in the service,little or no enforcement-self or otherwise. 40 channels-5 watts on AM,12 on SSB. Distance restrictions and no skip contacts allowed. No linear amplifiers allowed. All of which are routinely broken with very few penalties assessed for having done so.
Emergency coomunications: REACT organization and some law enforcement monitoring on one or two channels in some areas.

Amateur radio

Incentive licensing,routine structured testing program in place,pride in service. Literally thousands of frequencies available in several bands,(with the exception of 60 meters.) Up to 1500 watts allowed on some bands for higher class licensees. No restriction on skip contacts or distance. Policing by licensees and Official Observers,in addition to that done by the FCC field office and Enforcement Bureau personnel. Numerous modes available, such as AM,FM,SSB, CW,SSTV,FSTV,RTTY,EME,PSK-31,Microwaves, and Satellites,just to name a few,and new variations being developed all the time.

Does that sound like CB to you?
It certainly doesn't to me. There is so much out that it would be impossible to master it all. Just find something you love and run with it.

Emergency communications? Our bread and butter. A variety of modes in use with many private and government agencies calling on us for the assistance and abilities we can provide. Why? Our lack of infrastructure, and a when all else fails,we can do it capability,in the words of the ARRL.
What is the main difference between us and cb'ers in this area? In a word, training. We have it and they don't.

As to the future: Yes, there will be one, and it will be full of changes,not all of which will be well received. (Much like many of those in the past.) (Remember the end of spark gap and the advent of ssb,,just to name two?)

Are the new regulations and the results going to be well liked? No,at least not by some. Will we get past it? Yes. Not only because we love the hobby, but also because the agencies we serve need us to be there when they call on us. (There is also this: some of us thrive on service, and those of us will perhaps more than most work around the misgivings and attitudes caused by the changes to respond to the call.)
To not do so will result in a lack of trust and respect that will land us on a trash heap in history because of a perception, real or otherwise, of ineffectiveness. Not a pretty thought is it?

So I ask you, Are we going to turn away from the hobby because the FCC and others are declaring a single mode to be obsolete,even though it's still good and useful?
I'm not, and I'm betting that the vast majority of you out there aren't either.
We shall see....

73s,
Roger Barnhill, ab8rx

kf6snj

12-24-2006, 04:20 AM

Due to my recent registration for seminary (which occurred before I was aware of this sudden change in the FCC rules), my finances are tied up for the next eight years (I can only afford one class per quarter). Unfortunately, this also means that I may have a hard time making a retest before the restructuring is in place. I want to offer my sincerest apologies to my fellow pro-coders. Radio is an avocation, hence my education has the greater priority. Still, I am going to continue to study and practice code until I feel that I can be a reasonably competent code operator and then I am going to try my hand at either 10meter or 30meter code. I still plan to become a code operator, even if my license will not reflect. Who knows, maybe there will be a provision made by which one can still test for code proficiency and have that added to the license. I can only hope.

K4JF

12-24-2006, 06:15 AM

Quote[/b] (kf6snj @ Dec. 22 2006,22:20)]Due to my recent registration for seminary (which occurred before I was aware of this sudden change in the FCC rules), my finances are tied up for the next eight years (I can only afford one class per quarter). Unfortunately, this also means that I may have a hard time making a retest before the restructuring is in place. I want to offer my sincerest apologies to my fellow pro-coders. Radio is an avocation, hence my education has the greater priority. Still, I am going to continue to study and practice code until I feel that I can be a reasonably competent code operator and then I am going to try my hand at either 10meter or 30meter code. I still plan to become a code operator, even if my license will not reflect. Who knows, maybe there will be a provision made by which one can still test for code proficiency and have that added to the license. I can only hope.
There is. #The ARRL issues code proficiency certificates, and have been doing so for quite a while. #It won't be added to your license, but it is still a recognized accomplishment. #I'm sure there is info at www.arrl.org.

ka9uce

12-24-2006, 06:28 PM

Quote[/b] (wa4eho @ Dec. 16 2006,02:26)]Why is it that so many posters on this site want a "Free Ride"? #Geez, I don't want to get up in the mornings and go to work, but I know I won't get paid if I don't. It's called Incentive. To those that say, Oh gosh, they still have to memorize the Q&A, I say bull.
I got my novice (WN4EHO)in 1962 and learned the code at the age of 13. Got my General (WA4EHO) at 14. No Q&A to study, just determination. Got out in 1984 because of the way Ham Radio was headed then. Mostly disrespect and profanity.
I heard some guys talking about ham radio one day and after asking a few questions, got my hands on the Q&A, studied it and the code during lunch for a WEEK, and became KI4CMJ. I now have my old call back (WA4EHO). It was a Freebie compared to the test I had to take in '63!!! To me losing the code is a freebie. The Q&A is a freebie. Sorry but that is my opinion. Nobody appreciates something that is just literally given to them as much as something they have to work for. Look around at the brats you see in Wal-Mart. All they've had is freebies all their lives. This is why CB radio turned out the way it did. The truth is the truth and I'm sure a lot of the "no coders" will lamblast me but as that famous quote goes "Frankly my dear, I don't give a darn". I'm an old timer, so I didn't quote it exactly. #
The FCC has finally dealt Ham Radio the final blow as far as I'm concerned.Geez.
Now don't get me wrong, I know a lot of good new Hams and talk to them regularly on 2 meters. My point is that with no code, in the future there will be those that see this as a opportunity to get a license without the effort. That was CB radio. Memorizing answers is not the type incentive that Ham Radio should require. Ham Radio was and still should be about electronics, projecting, experimenting, building your own equipment and inventing, not just gabbing (ragchewing) on the radio. The code was the only thing standing between Ham Radio and CB. No matter what you say, the Q&A is not a deterent to riff-raff. Geez, we throughly enjoyed it when our teacher in school said "OPEN BOOK TEST" and that it what the Q&A is unless one is so stupid that they can't read. Anybody can memorize what the Q of a tank circuit is but understanding it is another thing.
So to those that think this is going to be the best thing for Ham Radio since sliced bread, I hope you are right but I don't think so. To those of you that think this is going to be the downfall to Ham Radio, I agree with you but I hope we're wrong.
I'm sitting here now listening on 2 meters to all the no code techs just laughing in their beer and gloating. One guy said he has waited for 6 years for this to happen so he could get on 10 meters. This guy is what I am talking about. All he wants is a freebie!
All I can say from here on is only time will tell and if the direction our country has taken in the last 20 years is any indicator as to what is going to happen with Ham Radio, then we are in serious trouble folks!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Here it comes again, assuming that learning the code is akin to 'earning' and anything else is a free ride?

Are you serious....really??

I said this in another post as well, but it is going to be posted again.

Passing some silly CW test makes one a 'real' ham that 'earned' his privileges, while those technically competent hams that took the no code route are just sleazes that could only become hams by not taking the CW test?

I'll be more than happy to place my skills as an RF engineer against ANY CW op any day of the week!

Not to mention, that I'd rather ask a REAL ham how a circuit is to be laid out than some CW puke that only knows how to use a key and tap out dits ad dahs*laughing*.

Those of you who love CW can keep it, I'll keep my service monitor warmed up for the day you break your CW transmitter and DON'T KNOW HOW TO REPAIR IT!

APPLIANCE OPS ARE NOT HAMS!

Like being told YOU are not a 'real' ham because I prefer to design and build, more than tapping out a contact?

I don't think YOU appreciate being called a 'non ham' because you are technically incompetent, so DO NOT classify those that can't stand CW as 'fake' hams, we ALL have OUR views, and yours is NO BETTER than mine or any other's here.

We all EARNED our licenses, and many EARN them daily for what they do FOR amateur radio, not for passing some lame CW test in addition to a written portion.

23 years ago, I passed my CW test in a single afternoon, SO WHAT!

23 years later, I am STILL learning the RF side of the hobby/service, and will continue to do so until I die, that's part of being a REAL ham...the desire to keep learning and ADVANCING the art, not clinging to the 'old ways' you have grown moss with.

As in the movie Twister, 'The days of sniffing the dirt are over'!

If you can't handle the fact the F.C.C made the rules change, deal with it, or get out of amateur radio and sell/give away your equipment as nobody will miss you!

Operating CW does not make you 'special', exept in your narrow view of life, while the remainder of the hams will laugh and continue enjoying amateur radio for all of the DIVERSITY it offers, and that includes CW as well.

Amateur radio is not only about CW, but all the other modes, bands and frequencies that are open and available to all of us, and to label everybody that does not share your love of CW as some lower form of life simply shows ignorance on your part.

I am HAPPY the CW tests have gone bye bye...it's about time it was put to rest, so the technical people can slide in and take the reins and kick the digital age into high gear.

This is OUR hobby as much as it is yours, and your views and ideas about it are no more or less important than mine or anybody elses.

Trust me, life will go on, either with you, or without you, it's your choice to stay and endeavor, or leave the hobby forever.

If you choose to stay, you will have to do away with the anger you've obviously developed over this chasm of a debate regarding code though, as one-sided viewpoints are no longer tolerated if they are going to be forced upon others.

You must adapt, improvise and overcome, or fade into nothing.....CHECKMATE!

ka9uce

12-24-2006, 06:30 PM

Quote[/b] (W5TJZ @ Dec. 22 2006,05:06)]The Ham Band became a CB when the 11 meter Novice band was given over to the CBers. #It was 26.96-27.23 Mhz. #I remember it from the Novice exam .
Actually, the band spread was 26.965 to 27.255, which soon afterwards was expanded to 27.405.

K4JF

12-25-2006, 02:11 AM

Quote[/b] (ka9uce @ Dec. 23 2006,12:28)]If you choose to stay, you will have to do away with the anger you've obviously developed over this chasm of a debate regarding code though, as one-sided viewpoints are no longer tolerated if they are going to be forced upon others.

You must adapt, improvise and overcome, or fade into nothing.....
If you choose to come in, you will have to do away with the anger you've obviously developed over this chasm of a debate regarding code though, as one-sided viewpoints are no longer tolerated if they are going to be forced upon others.

You must adapt, improvise and overcome, or fade into nothing.....

K4JF

12-25-2006, 02:13 AM

Quote[/b] (ka9uce @ Dec. 23 2006,12:30)]Quote[/b] (W5TJZ @ Dec. 22 2006,05:06)]The Ham Band became a CB when the 11 meter Novice band was given over to the CBers. #It was 26.96-27.23 Mhz. #I remember it from the Novice exam .
Actually, the band spread was 26.965 to 27.255, which soon afterwards was expanded to 27.405.
Actually, it was 26.96-27.23 Mhz. "It" was the 11 meter ham band in the original post, not CB, which was 26.965 to 27.255, except for 4 channels within.

W0UZR

12-25-2006, 11:55 AM

Quote[/b] (ka9uce @ Dec. 24 2006,12:28)]Quote[/b] (wa4eho @ Dec. 16 2006,02:26)]Why is it that so many posters on this site want a "Free Ride"? #Geez, I don't want to get up in the mornings and go to work, but I know I won't get paid if I don't. It's called Incentive. To those that say, Oh gosh, they still have to memorize the Q&A, I say bull.
I got my novice (WN4EHO)in 1962 and learned the code at the age of 13. Got my General (WA4EHO) at 14. No Q&A to study, just determination. Got out in 1984 because of the way Ham Radio was headed then. Mostly disrespect and profanity.
I heard some guys talking about ham radio one day and after asking a few questions, got my hands on the Q&A, studied it and the code during lunch for a WEEK, and became KI4CMJ. I now have my old call back (WA4EHO). It was a Freebie compared to the test I had to take in '63!!! To me losing the code is a freebie. The Q&A is a freebie. Sorry but that is my opinion. Nobody appreciates something that is just literally given to them as much as something they have to work for. Look around at the brats you see in Wal-Mart. All they've had is freebies all their lives. This is why CB radio turned out the way it did. The truth is the truth and I'm sure a lot of the "no coders" will lamblast me but as that famous quote goes "Frankly my dear, I don't give a darn". I'm an old timer, so I didn't quote it exactly. #
The FCC has finally dealt Ham Radio the final blow as far as I'm concerned.Geez.
Now don't get me wrong, I know a lot of good new Hams and talk to them regularly on 2 meters. My point is that with no code, in the future there will be those that see this as a opportunity to get a license without the effort. That was CB radio. Memorizing answers is not the type incentive that Ham Radio should require. Ham Radio was and still should be about electronics, projecting, experimenting, building your own equipment and inventing, not just gabbing (ragchewing) on the radio. The code was the only thing standing between Ham Radio and CB. No matter what you say, the Q&A is not a deterent to riff-raff. Geez, we throughly enjoyed it when our teacher in school said "OPEN BOOK TEST" and that it what the Q&A is unless one is so stupid that they can't read. Anybody can memorize what the Q of a tank circuit is but understanding it is another thing.
So to those that think this is going to be the best thing for Ham Radio since sliced bread, I hope you are right but I don't think so. To those of you that think this is going to be the downfall to Ham Radio, I agree with you but I hope we're wrong.
I'm sitting here now listening on 2 meters to all the no code techs just laughing in their beer and gloating. One guy said he has waited for 6 years for this to happen so he could get on 10 meters. This guy is what I am talking about. All he wants is a freebie!
All I can say from here on is only time will tell and if the direction our country has taken in the last 20 years is any indicator as to what is going to happen with Ham Radio, then we are in serious trouble folks!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Here it comes again, assuming that learning the code is akin to 'earning' and anything else is a free ride?

Are you serious....really??

I said this in another post as well, but it is going to be posted again.

Passing some silly CW test makes one a 'real' ham that 'earned' his privileges, while those technically competent hams that took the no code route are just sleazes that could only become hams by not taking the CW test?

I'll be more than happy to place my skills as an RF engineer against ANY CW op any day of the week!

Not to mention, that I'd rather ask a REAL ham how a circuit is to be laid out than some CW puke that only knows how to use a key and tap out dits ad dahs*laughing*.

Those of you who love CW can keep it, I'll keep my service monitor warmed up for the day you break your CW transmitter and DON'T KNOW HOW TO REPAIR IT!

APPLIANCE OPS ARE NOT HAMS!

Like being told YOU are not a 'real' ham because I prefer to design and build, more than tapping out a contact?

I don't think YOU appreciate being called a 'non ham' because you are technically incompetent, so DO NOT classify those that can't stand CW as 'fake' hams, we ALL have OUR views, and yours is NO BETTER than mine or any other's here.

We all EARNED our licenses, and many EARN them daily for what they do FOR amateur radio, not for passing some lame CW test in addition to a written portion.

23 years ago, I passed my CW test in a single afternoon, SO WHAT!

23 years later, I am STILL learning the RF side of the hobby/service, and will continue to do so until I die, that's part of being a REAL ham...the desire to keep learning and ADVANCING the art, not clinging to the 'old ways' you have grown moss with.

As in the movie Twister, 'The days of sniffing the dirt are over'!

If you can't handle the fact the F.C.C made the rules change, deal with it, or get out of amateur radio and sell/give away your equipment as nobody will miss you!

Operating CW does not make you 'special', exept in your narrow view of life, while the remainder of the hams will laugh and continue enjoying amateur radio for all of the DIVERSITY it offers, and that includes CW as well.

Amateur radio is not only about CW, but all the other modes, bands and frequencies that are open and available to all of us, and to label everybody that does not share your love of CW as some lower form of life simply shows ignorance on your part.

I am HAPPY the CW tests have gone bye bye...it's about time it was put to rest, so the technical people can slide in and take the reins and kick the digital age into high gear.

This is OUR hobby as much as it is yours, and your views and ideas about it are no more or less important than mine or anybody elses.

Trust me, life will go on, either with you, or without you, it's your choice to stay and endeavor, or leave the hobby forever.

If you choose to stay, you will have to do away with the anger you've obviously developed over this chasm of a debate regarding code though, as one-sided viewpoints are no longer tolerated if they are going to be forced upon others.

You must adapt, improvise and overcome, or fade into nothing.....CHECKMATE!
Quote[/b] ]Operating CW does not make you 'special', exept in your narrow view of life, while the remainder of the hams will laugh and continue enjoying amateur radio for all of the DIVERSITY it offers, and that includes CW as well.

This is what I have to look forward to? Being on the bands with people with attitudes like this?

WONDERFUL !!

Quote[/b] ]If you can't handle the fact the F.C.C made the rules change, deal with it, or get out of amateur radio and sell/give away your equipment as nobody will miss you!

This is what I have to look forward to? Being on the bands with people with attitudes like this?

WONDERFUL !!

and a technicion telling me to get out of Amateur Radio on top of it.

Quote[/b] ]I am HAPPY the CW tests have gone bye bye...it's about time it was put to rest, so the technical people can slide in and take the reins and kick the digital age into high gear

I hope this shows why it was so important to keep the code requirement in the test. Now that it's gone, this is the kind of attitude we have to have on the air.

Well, there you go, Mouth. You got your

FREE TICKET !!

kc6ueu

12-25-2006, 03:49 PM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 24 2006,19:13)]Quote[/b] (ka9uce @ Dec. 23 2006,12:30)]Quote[/b] (W5TJZ @ Dec. 22 2006,05:06)]The Ham Band became a CB when the 11 meter Novice band was given over to the CBers. #It was 26.96-27.23 Mhz. #I remember it from the Novice exam .
Actually, the band spread was 26.965 to 27.255, which soon afterwards was expanded to 27.405.
Actually, it was 26.96-27.23 Mhz. #"It" was the 11 meter ham band in the original post, not CB, which was 26.965 to 27.255, except for 4 channels within.
.

This historical timeline is presented as a tribute to the pioneer's and forward thinkers. They created an industry and a social phenomenon we know as CB.

27 Megacycle History in the U.S.
1933
Experimental Station W6XBC operated by Dr. A.H. Schermann in Yuma AZ operated at 27.1 MHz. (W6XBC stood for Experimental Broadcaster 6th radio district).

1934 # # #

The FCC is established by an Act of Congress commonly known as the Communications act of 1934. Radio "services" are #created in three categories, Broadcast, Public & Safety/Special. # #

1938 # #

Forward thinking Herbert Brooks, W9SDG of Port Wing WI. writes a letter to the editor of QST magazine and it is published in November 1938 describing a theoretical "Citizens Radio Service" nearly identical to what we know today. # #

1940
World War II spurs development of 27MHz equipment for use in tanks and beachhead landing networks. The BC-1335 an 18 tube 6 or 12v 4 Watt military unit weighing 25 lbs. was a forerunner of things to come.

1944
Speaking at the FCC frequency allocation hearings held during late 1944, Rear Admiral Stanford C. Hooper presents a draft of an obscure project proposing a band of frequencies be set aside for veterans returning home from WWII. The thought was that many returning vets possessed the technical knowledge, ideas & skills to create a new industry based on personal communications. #

1945
In January of 1945, just after Admiral Hoopers plan was announced, the FCC took unusually rapid action in announcing CB docket # 6651. The FCC commissioner E. K. Jett outlines in the July issue of the Saturday Evening Post his vision for the CB service.

1946
Doctors use 27MHz, operating diathermy medical equipment on a band of frequencies between 26.96 to 27.28 #

1947
The Atlantic City Conference - Amateurs lose parts of 10 meters and 20 meters, but will gain a new band at 15 meters in 1952. To compensate for the loss, the FCC allows use of the 11 meter band (26.96 to 27.23 Mc) on a shared basis with Industrial, Scientific and Medical devices. Class D radio for shared professional use introduced at 465MHz UHF. Doctors are permitted to continue using 27MHz.

1947
Licensed February 1947, radio Engineer John M. Mulligan fires up W2XQD using homemade equipment he was able to maintain spotty communications on temperamental UHF channels for a distance of 5 miles. #

1948
On March 23 1948 the FCC issued the first certificate of type approval for equipment to be used in the Citizens Radio Service at 465 megacycles. The model 100-B designed by Citizens Radio Corporation becomes the worlds first type approved CB radio.

1948
Firestone Tire Company granted experimental license W10XXD on 27.255MHz using two 3Watt transmitters. The experiments Firestone conducted are lost amid the company's corporate records but they may have been testing fore-runners of modern CB gear.

Laying practically dormant for a decade, 465MHz Class D service deemed a failure, the search is on for a replacement band.

Early 1957
FCC Docket #11994 proposes reallocating Class D in the very underused 11 meters Ham band 26.96-27.23 MHz (USA-only). At this time there was little business/military use of 27MHz and model control on 27.255 was inadequate, being shared with paging and other services.

11th Sept 1958
The 11 meters ham band is reassigned to models and Class D Citizens' Band radio. The band is divided into 10kHz channels, the first channel bounded by 26.96 and 26.97 with the carrier frequency centered at 26.965 - and 27.225 being the last channel center - 27 channels in all. Models were allocated 5 new channel centers, 50kHz apart, the outer channels being 35kHz away from the band edges. 22 Class D channels were arranged around the model channels that later became known as channels 3A, 7A, 11A, 15A and 19A. The old model channel at 27.255 was allocated as a further 23rd Class D channel, a shared frequency that remains as the 6th model channel also. The Business Band above 27.23 couldn't yet be used for CB apart from channel 23 - the two-channel gap between 22 and 23 gave rise to pirate channels 22A and 22B.

#26.965 #01
#26.975 #02
#26.985 #03
#26.995 # # #3A
#27.005 #04
#27.015 #05
#27.025 #06
#27.035 #07
#27.045 # # #7A
#27.055 #08
#27.065 #09
#27.075 #10
#27.085 #11
#27.095 # # #11A
#27.105 #12
#27.115 #13
#27.125 #14
#27.135 #15
#27.145 # # #15A
#27.155 #16
#27.165 #17
#27.175 #18
#27.185 #19
#27.195 # # #19A
#27.205 #20
#27.215 #21
#27.225 #22
--27.23-----
# # # # # # # #(27.235 #22A before becoming 24 in 1977)
# # # # # # # #(27.245 #22B before becoming 25 in 1977)
# # 27.255 #23 # #
March 1959
Mr. Donald L. Stoner publishes an article in Radio & TV News that includes design details on constructing a homemade CB radio transceiver. The schematic, component layout and alignment instructions are all included, this spurs many individuals to build their own version. This movement is picked up quickly by the fledgling industry and commercially produced kits become available almost overnight.

1st Jan 1977
More CB channels added - there was talk of having 99 channels up to 27.995 but it was decided not to allow a span of more than 440kHz - to prevent intermod breakthrough to any 455kHz receiver Intermediate Frequency stages. The business band lost 27.23 - 27.41, to new CB channels 24 to 40. Channels 24 and 25 filled in the reclaimed gap between 22 and 23 (which is why the order is strange), and channels 26 to 40 continued from 27.265 to 27.405 - by coincidence the first two decimal places match the channel number. The five newer model freqs are now part of an allocation from 26.96 to 27.28 . In the USA, channel 23 is still the "Blue" model channel.

#26.965 #01
# #to
#27.225 #22
#27.235 #24 *new*
#27.245 #25 *new*
#27.255 #23
#27.265 #26 *new*
# #to # # # *new*
#27.405 #40 *new*

Thank You, Tom Kneitel, K2AES (ex-2W1965) for providing historical data. Also Meg A Hertz #for frequency data. Without their help this page would not be possible.
Retrocom Homepage

kg4rju

12-25-2006, 11:23 PM

Thank God the code is gone!!! I have been telling every truckdriver I know. Most seem real happy to here the good news and they know we are ready to open are arms to them here on the HF airwaves. 73 Brian...
ps as truck driver myself I know that most all ready have a 10 meter rig ready to go.:p

kj3n

12-26-2006, 03:08 PM

Quote[/b] (w0uzr @ Dec. 25 2006,06:55)]Quote[/b] ]Operating CW does not make you 'special', exept in your narrow view of life, while the remainder of the hams will laugh and continue enjoying amateur radio for all of the DIVERSITY it offers, and that includes CW as well.

This is what I have to look forward to? Being on the bands with people with attitudes like this?
What attitude? That code isn't the end all and be all of ham radio? He's right; it isn't.

Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]If you can't handle the fact the F.C.C made the rules change, deal with it, or get out of amateur radio and sell/give away your equipment as nobody will miss you!

This is what I have to look forward to? Being on the bands with people with attitudes like this?

WONDERFUL !!

As opposed to yours? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Quote[/b] ]and a technicion telling me to get out of Amateur Radio on top of it.

Would an Extra telling you the same thing make any difference? Well, here it comes anyway:

If you can't handle the fact that the CW test is gone, if it makes you so mad and full of hate and spite towards any ham that doesn't have to pass a CW test to get on HF, then do ALL of us a favor; turn in your ticket and sell your gear. The rest of us don't want to hear you copping this kind of hateful attitude on the air.

Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]I am HAPPY the CW tests have gone bye bye...it's about time it was put to rest, so the technical people can slide in and take the reins and kick the digital age into high gear

I hope this shows why it was so important to keep the code requirement in the test.

Well, that's a complete non-sequitur. Don't know what orifice you pulled that one out of. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Quote[/b] ] Now that it's gone, this is the kind of attitude we have to have on the air.

Personally, I think his attitude is a hell of a lot better than yours right now. You should be ashamed to spew this much hate and vitriol towards a fellow amateur.

n1dvj

12-26-2006, 03:44 PM

Quote[/b] (N0TTW @ Dec. 23 2006,06:16)]Personally, I think Extra should be for the elite and the more I think about it, I don't deserve being an Extra. The code should stay with this license!

Extra licensee's should be the embodiment of amateur radio. They should know morse code, answer many technical questions in a variety of fields related to radio, be designers of advance circuits, keep up with technology and the like. And the most important of all... design the tests to reach the level they are at.
I'd have to ask about this one. Why? What the heck makes some 'elite'http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Sure, Extra is the 'top' class, but either it's the expert in all or not. Hey, I know Extras that can't design a PLL. Even a simple one to extract a clock from a wefax signal. They'd go purple even trying to say the words dual-modulus pre-scaler, let alone design one. (Ok, I've not designed one, but I HAVE built one from app notes, and modified it for what I wanted to do...)

I know an extra that until just a couple years ago didn't know the difference between an alkaline battery and a NiCad! Oh my God, give him kittens and discuss LiIon or NiMH on the air where he could here it and just have to chime in!

There isn't one single HAM license that is a 'exit' test that says you are the 'expert'. The real problem is the people of EVERY class that treat their license as their 'certification'. Especially when they interact with other classes 'below' them. And that's an attitude that has to change. Every HAM license should be thought of as an 'entrance' to that class, and the learning and skill set should be increased. And not just in specific areas that the other 'arm chair experts' try to declare. Pick you own path, play, and learn. Hopefully you can then share what you learn and EVERYBODY benefits.

kc7gnm

12-26-2006, 04:55 PM

Quote[/b] (w0uzr @ Dec. 25 2006,07:55)] ]Operating CW does not make you 'special', exept in your narrow view of life, while the remainder of the hams will laugh and continue enjoying amateur radio for all of the DIVERSITY it offers, and that includes CW as well.

This is what I have to look forward to? Being on the bands with people with attitudes like this?

# # # # # # # # # # # # # #WONDERFUL !!

Quote[/b] ]If you can't handle the fact the F.C.C made the rules change, deal with it, or get out of amateur radio and sell/give away your equipment as nobody will miss you!

This is what I have to look forward to? Being on the bands with people with attitudes like this?

# # # # # # # # # # # # # #WONDERFUL !!

and a technicion telling me to get out of Amateur Radio on top of it.

Quote[/b] ]I am HAPPY the CW tests have gone bye bye...it's about time it was put to rest, so the technical people can slide in and take the reins and kick the digital age into high gear

I hope this shows why it was so important to keep the code requirement in the test. #Now that it's gone, this is the kind of attitude we have to have on the air.

Well, #there you go, #Mouth. #You got your

# # # # # # # # # # # # # # FREE #TICKET !!
And your response is also the reason why it should be eliminated. You know it is funny when coded hams can talk garbage about no-codes but when it is turned around it is a different story. Sorry but I don't buy your argument. CW testing hasn't kept the idiots off 75 meters now has it. What about the idiots that tune up on top of an ongoing QSO? CW testing hasn't stopped that either. CW or no CW testing will not keep the idiots off the air. Even making the written tests won't do that. You will always have lids getting on the air no matter what the FCC does. That is human nature.

K4JF

12-26-2006, 06:10 PM

deleting extraneous post. Excuse me.

K4JF

12-26-2006, 06:13 PM

Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Dec. 25 2006,10:55)]And your response is also the reason why it should be eliminated.
His response has absolutely nothing to do with whether CW should be eliminated or not. Nothing.

N2MMM

12-26-2006, 11:00 PM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 26 2006,11:13)]Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Dec. 25 2006,10:55)]And your response is also the reason why it should be eliminated.
His response has absolutely nothing to do with whether CW should be eliminated or not. #Nothing.
WRONG!!!
CW isn't being eliminated, just the test. However, if code literate hams aren't more welcoming to the no code test hams, CW will die a natural death.

ah6gi

12-27-2006, 02:30 AM

Quote[/b] (ka9uce @ Dec. 24 2006,11:28)]I'll be more than happy to place my skills as an RF engineer against ANY CW op any day of the week!

...

Those of you who love CW can keep it, I'll keep my service monitor warmed up for the day you break your CW transmitter and DON'T KNOW HOW TO REPAIR IT!

...

23 years later, I am STILL learning the RF side of the hobby/service, and will continue to do so until I die, that's part of being a REAL ham...the desire to keep learning and ADVANCING the art, not clinging to the 'old ways' you have grown moss with.
...
If you choose to stay, you will have to do away with the anger you've obviously developed over this chasm of a debate regarding code though, as one-sided viewpoints are no longer tolerated if they are going to be forced upon others.

You must adapt, improvise and overcome, or fade into nothing.....CHECKMATE!
Lighten up guy.

Lemme tell you a story. I was in Computer Science graduate school, taking "automata theory", required for the MS-CSci and busting a major sweat. I got to know a fellow who was working on his MS-EE.

We were talking about the Masters Comprehensive Exam, which usually had a question on finite state automata, "prove that X is computable if ...." I said that it would be nice if they de-emphasized the theory and just gave us a hex dump and asked questions on that.

My MSEE pal surprised me when he agreed and said, "I write and debug device drivers in machine language so that would be an easy exam."

My point, and I've made it before, is that you find a wide range of skills in ham radio. Do not make the mistake of thinking that that old grey-haired Extra isn't "with-it" or that the no-code Tech isn't on a coding team to build a radio in software.

For every geezer who is nattering away on 75 meter LSB, there is one who is reverse engineering someone's operating system. Same is true of the no-coders. There is serious talent in ham radio at all license levels.

de ah6gi/4

K4JF

12-27-2006, 02:31 AM

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Dec. 25 2006,17:00)]if code literate hams aren't more welcoming to the no code test hams, CW will die a natural death.
That goes both ways, my friend. If the new HF hams (see, I didn't even mention that certain skill) are as arrogant as the ones on here, who claim to know it all and don't need anybody to tell them anything, you will never heal the divide.

And, yes, that isn't limited to ham radio. That attitude is prevalent in many areas.

K4JF

12-27-2006, 02:33 AM

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Dec. 25 2006,17:00)]CW isn't being eliminated, just the test.
You don't know that.

There are quite a few demanding that CW be eliminated as an operating mode. You see them on here all the time.

K4JF

12-27-2006, 02:38 AM

deleting accidental dupe - sorry.....

K4JF

12-27-2006, 02:41 AM

Quote[/b] (ka9uce @ Dec. 23 2006,12:28)]Those of you who love CW can keep it, I'll keep my service monitor warmed up for the day you break your CW transmitter and DON'T KNOW HOW TO REPAIR IT!
BULLs*$^!!! What an arrogant and ignorant statement! If I break my best CW rig, I'll repair it. I know how because I designed and built it! (And no, it's not on my website... I save it for special fun, like SKN).

Or I'll look up more data on how to improve it using the computer I built.

kb3ojg

12-27-2006, 03:31 AM

Me again (wouldn't ya know?)

. If Ham radio is "dying" (they were saying this when I got involved the first time), then there's only TWO things killing it:

A. "Old-Timers" bloviating about how THEIR test was so much harder, how "real radios glow in the dark", about how Morse testing served as a "filter" to keep the chickenbanders out, how such-and-such aren't "real" hams, etc.....Yeah, baby, people are REALLY gonna join our "fraternity" en masse given the fact that they'll be disrespected and denigrated at every turn because they didn't get in "early enough" before Ham radio was "ruined" by such-and-such FCC decision (used to be about No-code techs, now it's about the FCC dropping ALL morse requirements). Yeah, right.

Tell me: What other "hobby"/"Service"/"Fraternity" spends SO much time browbeating "newbies", instead of actually encouraging them? Every "Hey good buddy" type comment, in lieu of any genuine argument makes my point for me.

There is NO other hobby/service/whatever that does this sort of thing, NONE. All of you "Know-Code" Oldtimers need to think about another code -- the AMATEUR'S code.

THAT code is listed practically on the front page of every ARRL handbook. It was composed by Paul M. Segal, and whoever he was, I can tell that he was a true gentleman -- better than all of the snotty "Know-Code" Oldtimers' bloviating on THIS thread.

Since you're all so unhappy that the FCC removed the "code requirement", and so proud to be "Know-code" hams, how about we give ourselves a little "code test" on THIS one, shall we?

"One: the Amateur is Considerate...he never knowingly uses the air in such a way as to lessen the pleasure of others."

(Hmm.....Considering that many people have already mentioned the whackjobs on 75 M ssb and their antics, we can be pretty sure that at least SOME of the "know-code" Oldtimers are "using the air" in just exactly the way prescribed by Mr. Segal's statements.

Let's try another one, shall we?

"Two: the Amateur is loyal....he offers his loyalty, encouragement, and support to his fellow radio amateurs, his local club, and to the american radio relay leage, through which amateur radio is represented."

Hmmm, now THERE's a tough one. Several people have mentioned in several of these godawful "CW" threads how club attendance has dropped. There ain't much "loyalty" going on when the Old-timers persist in browbeating their "Fellow radio amateurs" via chicken-band jokes. These people's loyalty to the ARRL evidently goes just exactly as far as browbeating them into doing things that act against the interests of the "fraternity"-at-large (like, for instance, creating and preserving a de-facto caste system between the "know-code" elite and the "no-code" dregs.

Next, please:

"Three: the Amateur is progressive....he keeps his station abreast of science, it is well-built and efficient, his operating practice is above reproach."

Well now, where exactly to start? 'real radios glow in the dark?' --- aggressive advocacy of so-called 'real' modes vs. the "newfangled" digital stuff, etc? The "operating practices" of the aforementioned loons on 75 m?

"Four, the Amateur is friendly....slow and patient sending. when requested, friendly advice and counsel to the beginner, kindly assistance, cooperation and consideration for the interests of others; these are marks of the amateur spirit."

One word: hahahahaha. How much "friendly advice and consel" do we see from the "know-code" side of this debate? How many of these "CW-only operators" have done "slow and patient sending?" Oh wait, I forgot.....being a 20-wpm speed demon earns them brag points.
Hmm.....don't see very much "consideration for the interests" of those hams who want to use other modes than CW here, either -- all the whimpering about the expansion of the phone bands etc, indicates to me that the "know-code" Oldtimers consider themselves....and THEIR favorite mode....which makes sense from their point of view because there's is the only REAL mode (hence able to be operated in ANY of the "mode-specific sub-bands" while all the other modes are lumped in together like an afterthought.)

"The amateur is balanced. Radio is his hobby, he never allows it to interfere with any of the duties he owes to his home, jis job, his school, or his community."

Hmm......I bet we could all ask som "XYL's" a thing or two about THIS one! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

And last, and definitely nowadays least:

"the amateur is patriotic. His knowledge and his station are always ready for the service of his country and his community."

Wow....so I guess that precludes sloppiness and apathy on the part of RACES/ARES/Skywarn folks, then?

Come on, folks: it's the "old-timers"....the people who have consistently been into ham radio for the longest amount of time....who SHOULD be most welcoming and encouraging to all of these new future HF operators. But no. It's not enough that their pet mode has always been favored above all other modes, but they also have to have it be a "filter" and an excuse for snotty clannishness. THEY are what is 'killing the fraternity" -- not some supposed "generation missing out on CW's charms". I would almost be willing to wager that a lot of the so-called "NO-code Generals" etc. will in future operate CW OUT OF CHOICE, rather than requirement or (stupidest of all) "tradition".

That is, unless pompous curmudgeons manage to associate "CW" with everything that is WORST about the current Amateur Radio 'fraternity".

So can we PLEASE have some sanity here?

K4JF

12-27-2006, 04:43 AM

Quote[/b] (kb3ojg @ Dec. 25 2006,21:31)]How many of these "CW-only operators" have done "slow and patient sending?" #Oh wait, I forgot.....being a 20-wpm speed demon earns them brag points.
ALL good CW ops have done "slow and patient sending". #All of them. #(By definition: if they don't - or can't - adjust speed to the slowest operator in the QSO, then they are not good operators.)

Stop painting all CW ops with the broad brush that they are all curmugeons who do not help newcomers. #That is simply not the case, and is leading some of the newcomers, who might otherwise try to fit in, to go against everything if it comes from an OT.

Just because he has had a license more than six months does not make him wrong!

Oh, and 20 wpm is hardly a "speed demon". I used to hear that all the time on the Novice bands. 35+ is a speed demon.

K4JF

12-27-2006, 04:49 AM

Quote[/b] (ah6gi @ Dec. 25 2006,20:30)]Do not make the mistake of thinking that that old grey-haired Extra isn't "with-it" or that the no-code Tech isn't on a coding team to build a radio in software.

For every geezer who is nattering away on 75 meter LSB, there is one who is reverse engineering someone's operating system. # Same is true of the no-coders. #There is serious talent in ham radio at all license levels.

de ah6gi/4
That is the most sensible statement I've seen on here in a long time! Thanx!

73 de K4JF

NL7W

12-27-2006, 05:59 AM

Quote[/b] (kb3ojg @ Dec. 26 2006,20:31)]Me again (wouldn't ya know?)

. If Ham radio is "dying" (they were saying this when I got involved the first time), then there's only TWO things killing it:

A. "Old-Timers" bloviating about how THEIR test was so much harder, how "real radios glow in the dark", about how Morse testing served as a "filter" to keep the chickenbanders out, how such-and-such aren't "real" hams, etc.....Yeah, baby, people are REALLY gonna join our "fraternity" en masse given the fact that they'll be disrespected and denigrated at every turn because they didn't get in "early enough" before Ham radio was "ruined" by such-and-such FCC decision (used to be about No-code techs, now it's about the FCC dropping ALL morse requirements). Yeah, right.

Tell me: What other "hobby"/"Service"/"Fraternity" spends SO much time browbeating "newbies", instead of actually encouraging them? Every "Hey good buddy" type comment, in lieu of any genuine argument makes my point for me.

There is NO other hobby/service/whatever that does this sort of thing, NONE. All of you "Know-Code" Oldtimers need to think about another code -- the AMATEUR'S code.

THAT code is listed practically on the front page of every ARRL handbook. It was composed by Paul M. Segal, and whoever he was, I can tell that he was a true gentleman -- better than all of the snotty "Know-Code" Oldtimers' bloviating on THIS thread.

Since you're all so unhappy that the FCC removed the "code requirement", and so proud to be "Know-code" hams, how about we give ourselves a little "code test" on THIS one, shall we?

"One: the Amateur is Considerate...he never knowingly uses the air in such a way as to lessen the pleasure of others."

(Hmm.....Considering that many people have already mentioned the whackjobs on 75 M ssb and their antics, we can be pretty sure that at least SOME of the "know-code" Oldtimers are "using the air" in just exactly the way prescribed by Mr. Segal's statements.

Let's try another one, shall we?

"Two: the Amateur is loyal....he offers his loyalty, encouragement, and support to his fellow radio amateurs, his local club, and to the american radio relay leage, through which amateur radio is represented."

Hmmm, now THERE's a tough one. Several people have mentioned in several of these godawful "CW" threads how club attendance has dropped. There ain't much "loyalty" going on when the Old-timers persist in browbeating their "Fellow radio amateurs" via chicken-band jokes. These people's loyalty to the ARRL evidently goes just exactly as far as browbeating them into doing things that act against the interests of the "fraternity"-at-large (like, for instance, creating and preserving a de-facto caste system between the "know-code" elite and the "no-code" dregs.

Next, please:

"Three: the Amateur is progressive....he keeps his station abreast of science, it is well-built and efficient, his operating practice is above reproach."

Well now, where exactly to start? 'real radios glow in the dark?' --- aggressive advocacy of so-called 'real' modes vs. the "newfangled" digital stuff, etc? The "operating practices" of the aforementioned loons on 75 m?

"Four, the Amateur is friendly....slow and patient sending. when requested, friendly advice and counsel to the beginner, kindly assistance, cooperation and consideration for the interests of others; these are marks of the amateur spirit."

One word: hahahahaha. How much "friendly advice and consel" do we see from the "know-code" side of this debate? How many of these "CW-only operators" have done "slow and patient sending?" Oh wait, I forgot.....being a 20-wpm speed demon earns them brag points.
Hmm.....don't see very much "consideration for the interests" of those hams who want to use other modes than CW here, either -- all the whimpering about the expansion of the phone bands etc, indicates to me that the "know-code" Oldtimers consider themselves....and THEIR favorite mode....which makes sense from their point of view because there's is the only REAL mode (hence able to be operated in ANY of the "mode-specific sub-bands" while all the other modes are lumped in together like an afterthought.)

"The amateur is balanced. Radio is his hobby, he never allows it to interfere with any of the duties he owes to his home, jis job, his school, or his community."

Hmm......I bet we could all ask som "XYL's" a thing or two about THIS one! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

And last, and definitely nowadays least:

"the amateur is patriotic. His knowledge and his station are always ready for the service of his country and his community."

Wow....so I guess that precludes sloppiness and apathy on the part of RACES/ARES/Skywarn folks, then?

Come on, folks: it's the "old-timers"....the people who have consistently been into ham radio for the longest amount of time....who SHOULD be most welcoming and encouraging to all of these new future HF operators. But no. It's not enough that their pet mode has always been favored above all other modes, but they also have to have it be a "filter" and an excuse for snotty clannishness. THEY are what is 'killing the fraternity" -- not some supposed "generation missing out on CW's charms". I would almost be willing to wager that a lot of the so-called "NO-code Generals" etc. will in future operate CW OUT OF CHOICE, rather than requirement or (stupidest of all) "tradition".

That is, unless pompous curmudgeons manage to associate "CW" with everything that is WORST about the current Amateur Radio 'fraternity".

So can we PLEASE have some sanity here?
OJG:

You are so full of it! I operate phone 90% of the time, yet am pleased with my Morse work over the years -- a 20-wpm Extra at 18-years of age in 1989, and one who keeps his tech and operating skills current. It isn't just the Morse loving, code-only types opposing the removal of the only demonstrated and rudimentary skills exam... its those who accepted the challenges of the day without a whimper or a whine -- who didn't extol heretical comments. I relished the challenges laid before me -- all the multiple written and Morse code exams. Where is that mettle today?

I have, and will continue to, firmly oppose any licensure standards reductions -- as a matter of principle. Over the last 15-years, these reductions we've seen have allowed many without mettle to become amateur operators. These folks of "little-gumption", especially these folks that purposefully waited for the standards to be reduced and/or dropped, will not contribute nearly as much time and effort, on average, as those who invested much more time, effort, and perseverance -- meeting the high standards of earlier years.

BTW, very few people in this world will spend inordinate amounts of time with neophytes -- especially these days. Oh, it's always been that way; it was no different when I was a teen studying for, and operating on-the-air to improve my Morse skills, my multiple written and Morse exams. I would like to think most know the amount of time necessary to train folks is extensive, given the vast technical directions of this hobby. I, like most others of not that many years ago, have found the hobby to be a personal, life-time endeavor of self-training -- proved worthy by their mettle through the passage of high-standards tests. That is gone now...

I found the rest of you post isn't anything worth responding to... it's just too cynical.

Please answer a few direct questions:

- Tell me, what is sane about 15-years of amateur radio written and skills standards reductions?
- What's sane regarding the correspondingly lower technical capabilities of newer hams accessing the bands today?
- Is it just plain insanity to believe a higher standards bar, say for the "General" and "Extra" licenses, be called for? (rather than the continual removal or reduction of technical questions, symbols, schematics, diagrams, math questions, etc.)
- Please tell us what is inherently wrong with tradition?

Please give us your "humble" opinion regarding these four questions.

73.

w8cab

12-27-2006, 06:00 AM

I'm so happy about the elimination of the CW requirement. I'm a no-code tech, have been since 2002..I got my Tech ticket because I wanted to be a ham..I didn't want the total BS of 11 meters, trash talking, foul mouthed truck drivers, degenerate welfare base station "operators" with their 2950's and D&A Phantom's running into Anron 99's 25 feet off the ground. I wanted to have intelligent conversations with intelligent people, on the radio. That's exactly what I get with my Tech license, fun talking simplex, yacking on local nets on the repeaters, trying my hand at 2m ssb. I'm am so looking forward to getting my General license, so I can explore HF. I would hope that people would welcome me, since I have an honest and avid interest in radio, just not the time, or inclination, to learn CW.

NL7W

12-27-2006, 06:01 AM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 26 2006,21:43)]Quote[/b] (kb3ojg @ Dec. 25 2006,21:31)]How many of these "CW-only operators" have done "slow and patient sending?" Oh wait, I forgot.....being a 20-wpm speed demon earns them brag points.
ALL good CW ops have done "slow and patient sending". All of them. (By definition: if they don't - or can't - adjust speed to the slowest operator in the QSO, then they are not good operators.)

Stop painting all CW ops with the broad brush that they are all curmugeons who do not help newcomers. That is simply not the case, and is leading some of the newcomers, who might otherwise try to fit in, to go against everything if it comes from an OT.

Just because he has had a license more than six months does not make him wrong!

Oh, and 20 wpm is hardly a "speed demon". I used to hear that all the time on the Novice bands. 35+ is a speed demon.
Agreed!

NL7W

12-27-2006, 06:06 AM

Quote[/b] (w8cab @ Dec. 26 2006,23:00)]I'm so happy about the elimination of the CW requirement. I'm a no-code tech, have been since 2002..I got my Tech ticket because I wanted to be a ham..I didn't want the total BS of 11 meters, trash talking, foul mouthed truck drivers, degenerate welfare base station "operators" with their 2950's and D&A Phantom's running into Anron 99's 25 feet off the ground. I wanted to have intelligent conversations with intelligent people, on the radio. That's exactly what I get with my Tech license, fun talking simplex, yacking on local nets on the repeaters, trying my hand at 2m ssb. I'm am so looking forward to getting my General license, so I can explore HF. I would hope that people would welcome me, since I have an honest and avid interest in radio, just not the time, or inclination, to learn CW.
Your wish has been granted.

kb3ojg

12-27-2006, 06:06 AM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 26 2006,21:43)]top painting all CW ops with the broad brush that they are all curmugeons who do not help newcomers.
SThat is simply not the case, and is leading some of the newcomers, who might otherwise try to fit in, to go against everything if it comes from an OT.
I am NOT "painting all CW ops" with a broad brush. We are NOT discussing the merits of CW as a mode on this (ahem) "thread". What we ARE debating -- endlessly for vast numbers of messages -- is the presumption that the more millitantly obstinate CW ADVOCATES are putting forth over and over and over -- namely that "Amateur radio = CW" and "No CW requirement = Chickenband".

That's been the mantra of the "KNow-code" side of the debate (those of the Ham "fraternity" who make knowledge of Morse Code into some sort of special "badge of honor", and consider those who entered via a license without that requirement not to be "real" hams.

"Just because he's had a license for more than six months doesn't make him wrong".

Yeah, and? Just because someone HAS had a license for a shorter period of time doesn't make them wrong either, but you wouldn't know that by all the aggressive "know-code" rhetoric and bad "chickenband" jokes going on here.

And, what exactly is this stuff about "fitting in"? Should we have all stayed with spark-gap, so that we could "fit in"? Should there never be any new modes developed just so that we can "fit in" with what already exists?

I don't think so. Until and unless the FCC explicitly issues some kind of documentation EXPLICITLY BANNING CW --- or, let's just be charitable here -- ANY use of the morse code --- those who are bloviating about how this is going to "destroy" ham radio are essentially blowing smoke out of their ------(expletive deleted for family friendliness.) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Now, thankfully there HAVE been some intelligent OT's who've demonstrated the correct attitude. (The guy who's been in for 47 years comes to mind). It is the CW-"advocacy" side who makes the grandiose and unsupportable claim that the removal of the morse code requirement equates to the wholesale destruction of amateur radio.

Well, then, such a phenomenon should be happening in other nations where the Morse requirement was dropped. Is it? Dunno. I tend to think that the noisy arrogant variety of OT's are infinitely more harmful to amateur radio than any newbie could ever possibly be, primarily because they ARE the "tribal elders" so to speak, and they should be doing better than the sort of assinine morass of "chicken little" and "chicken-band" that I've been reading here.

So if you've done better, and lived up to your best image of what amateur radio is supposed to be, good for you, but then I wasn't addressing it to you, now was I?

What people need to do is to stop painting anybody who got licensed after themselves as not "real" hams. That's the sort of thing that makes people drop out.

You'd THINK that there'd be more positivity on this issue, nameily because an influx of "no-code Generals" could just maybe get some very dedicated people involved in HF?

But noooooo........

Thanks ever so much for misunderstanding what I said.

NL7W

12-27-2006, 06:12 AM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 24 2006,19:11)]Quote[/b] (ka9uce @ Dec. 23 2006,12:28)]If you choose to stay, you will have to do away with the anger you've obviously developed over this chasm of a debate regarding code though, as one-sided viewpoints are no longer tolerated if they are going to be forced upon others.

You must adapt, improvise and overcome, or fade into nothing.....
If you choose to come in, you will have to do away with the anger you've obviously developed over this chasm of a debate regarding code though, as one-sided viewpoints are no longer tolerated if they are going to be forced upon others.

You must adapt, improvise and overcome, or fade into nothing.....
Believe me, with folks like him, the rift will continue -- it will be perpetuated on the HF bands.

W0UZR

12-27-2006, 11:19 AM

Quote[/b] (n3jja @ Dec. 26 2006,09:08)]Quote[/b] (w0uzr @ Dec. 25 2006,06:55)]Quote[/b] ]Operating CW does not make you 'special', exept in your narrow view of life, while the remainder of the hams will laugh and continue enjoying amateur radio for all of the DIVERSITY it offers, and that includes CW as well.

This is what I have to look forward to? Being on the bands with people with attitudes like this?
What attitude? That code isn't the end all and be all of ham radio? He's right; it isn't.

Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]If you can't handle the fact the F.C.C made the rules change, deal with it, or get out of amateur radio and sell/give away your equipment as nobody will miss you!

This is what I have to look forward to? Being on the bands with people with attitudes like this?

# # # # # # # # # # # # # #WONDERFUL !!

As opposed to yours? # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Quote[/b] ]and a technicion telling me to get out of Amateur Radio on top of it.

Would an Extra telling you the same thing make any difference? Well, here it comes anyway:

If you can't handle the fact that the CW test is gone, if it makes you so mad and full of hate and spite towards any ham that doesn't have to pass a CW test to get on HF, then do ALL of us a favor; turn in your ticket and sell your gear. The rest of us don't want to hear you copping this kind of hateful attitude on the air.

Quote[/b] ]Quote[/b] ]I am HAPPY the CW tests have gone bye bye...it's about time it was put to rest, so the technical people can slide in and take the reins and kick the digital age into high gear

I hope this shows why it was so important to keep the code requirement in the test.

Well, that's a complete non-sequitur. Don't know what orifice you pulled that one out of. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Quote[/b] ] #Now that it's gone, this is the kind of attitude we have to have on the air.

Personally, I think his attitude is a hell of a lot better than yours right now. You should be ashamed to spew this much hate and vitriol towards a fellow amateur.
Quote[/b] ]If you can't handle the fact that the CW test is gone, if it makes you so mad and full of hate and spite towards any ham that doesn't have to pass a CW test to get on HF, then do ALL of us a favor; turn in your ticket and sell your gear. The rest of us don't want to hear you copping this kind of hateful attitude on the air.

Obviously you have read the person I was quoting writings and thought it was ME.! #
# # # All I was saying is that I'm NOT looking forward to him and people like him coming on HF with an attitude like that. #I want to be on HF with nice people.

Not people that call me #"Narrow Minded" #and tell me to get out of radio, "
sell my equipment" !! #Is that suppose to make me feel like I'm going to share the bands with Nice People?

I'm not the one that said "Narrow Minded" and #"Sell my equipment." # # #

# # # # # # # #It was the guy #I WAS QUOTING !

And now you said that to me. #Is that suppose to make me feel great? And is that suppose to make me think you are nice and welcome you on the air with open arms??

#

And #NO #I'M NOT #selling my equipment. I'M NOT turning in my ticket. #I'm #Not going anywhere......

Grow #Up !

PE1RDW

12-27-2006, 12:00 PM

Quote[/b] (w0uzr @ Dec. 27 2006,13:19)][Obviously you have read the person I was quoting writings and thought it was ME.! #
# # # All I was saying is that I'm NOT looking forward to him and people like him coming on HF with an attitude like that. #I want to be on HF with nice people.

Not people that call me #"Narrow Minded" #and tell me to get out of radio, "
sell my equipment" !! #Is that suppose to make me feel like I'm going to share the bands with Nice People?

I wish I didn't have to share the band with an attitude like yours either. #I want to be amongst nice people.......

I'm not the one that said "Narrow Minded" and #"Sell my equipment." # # #

# # # # # # # #It was the guy #I WAS QUOTING !

And now you said that to me. #Is that suppose to make me feel great?

I am #NOT #looking forward to being on the bands with either of you. #

And #NO #I'M NOT #selling my equipment. #I'm #Not going anywhere.

Grow #Up !
So it is oke for you to tell people to stay of HF because they don't know morse code but it is not oke for others to tell you to look beyond a single subject?

From where I'm sitting that is what it boils down to, you "attack" your fellow ham for things you yourself are guilty of.

It makes me wonder how you define "nice people" are that people who comunicate without regard of licence class or are that people who agree with you?

W0UZR

12-27-2006, 12:11 PM

I #DID NOT #say I want people to stay off of HF because they don't know the code.

I AM NOT #attacking anyone, I'm responding to someone that was attacking me......

I am #NOT the one that said #"Narrow Minded" #and #"Sell my equipment" #and #"Turn in my ticket"

I'm not the one that started it.

I'm beginning to wonder if people have reading and comprehension skills.

W0UZR

12-27-2006, 12:15 PM

How about reading more throughly and trying to understand it before you post.

PE1RDW

12-27-2006, 12:35 PM

Quote[/b] (w0uzr @ Dec. 27 2006,14:11)]I #DID NOT #say I want people to stay off of HF because they don't know the code.
yep you didn't say it directly, you said you didn't like people like ka9uce on hf.

Quote[/b] ]I AM NOT #attacking anyone, I'm responding to someone that was attacking me......

ka9uce was not attacking you, he was responding to someone else.

Quote[/b] ]I am #NOT the one that said #"Narrow Minded" #and #"Sell my equipment" #and #"Turn in my ticket"

it's clearly a case of "If the shoe fits", ka9uce clearly sugested that the only wise alternative to accepting the change and treating hams the same was to leave the hobby. If you feels that this means you have to leave the hobby then the conclusion would be that you feel hams with new codeless licences are less then hams that have passed a code test. If you don't feel that way then the remark was clearly not aimed at you.

Quote[/b] ]I'm not the one that started it.

Last time I heard that was in pre school, look back and you will see that you jumped in an argument that was not even aimed at you.

Quote[/b] ]I'm beginning to wonder if people have reading and comprehension skills.

I wonder the same thing about you but still I won't make a list of people I don't want on HF, if you happen to answer a psk31 cq or sattelite of mine I'll work you untill I'm treated like filth, I count on HAMs knowing the difference between internet and hamradio.

W0UZR

12-27-2006, 12:53 PM

I was just making an example out of someone's attitude and snottyness and said I don't want that on the air.

Either you are unable to understand what someone writes, or you just want to argue and hissy fit. I'm betting it's the latter.

ka9ekg

12-27-2006, 01:04 PM

Who is going to win this Sunday nite Green Bay Packers or Chicago Bears?............................................ ...................................

W0UZR

12-27-2006, 01:10 PM

Chicago I'm hoping for Green Bay of course, but I don't think they are going to do it.

AD7DK

12-27-2006, 02:13 PM

I'm a life long Packer fan and I would love to see them beat Chicago and maybe make it into the playoffs. It would be a nice way for Favre to finish a great career. I would really love to see that.... but I don't think they have a snowballs chance. Chicago has a tough team this year.

kc7gnm

12-27-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Dec. 26 2006,19:00)]Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 26 2006,11:13)]Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Dec. 25 2006,10:55)]And your response is also the reason why it should be eliminated.
His response has absolutely nothing to do with whether CW should be eliminated or not. #Nothing.
WRONG!!!
CW isn't being eliminated, just the test. However, if code literate hams aren't more welcoming to the no code test hams, CW will die a natural death.
That is my point exactly. Us code hams need to embrace the no-code hams otherwise they will never want to do CW. I am a General and hate CW all because of the garbage I hear about it. Besides I don't like the mode anyways.

K4JF

12-27-2006, 02:54 PM

Quote[/b] (kb3ojg @ Dec. 26 2006,00:06)]# And, what exactly is this stuff about "fitting in"? #Should we have all stayed with spark-gap, so that we could "fit in"? # Should there never be any new modes developed just so that we can "fit in" with what already exists? #
Ridiculous statements. I said "fit in" to ham radio. What already exists (but has been seriously damaged by BOTH extremes in this debate) is a group of people who like radio for radio's sake, who have developed certain procedures and languages because they work, who are friendly and helpful to newcomers, and assist them in "learning the ropes", who keep their equipment in top operating condition (whether new or old), who actually give back to the public which lets them use the frequencies, who stand ready to use their equipment, expertise, and good will to help others in need, who are always learning and seeking more knowledge. People who cross national and cultural boundaries with good will. People who are constantly experimenting and seeking better technology, and sharing that with others. That is the ham radio I know.

Just exactly what part of the above do you have a problem with?

K4JF

12-27-2006, 02:58 PM

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Dec. 25 2006,17:00)]Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 26 2006,11:13)]Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Dec. 25 2006,10:55)]And your response is also the reason why it should be eliminated.
His response has absolutely nothing to do with whether CW should be eliminated or not. #Nothing.
WRONG!!!
CW isn't being eliminated, just the test.
Read the quote. I am not wrong - I didn't say CW was being eliminated, he did. I said his comment was not related to the statement. (Although there are a lot of people with that goal, they haven't won yet.)

K4JF

12-27-2006, 03:00 PM

Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Dec. 25 2006,17:00)]CW isn't being eliminated, just the test.
Not yet. However, taken together; the elimination of the exam, <u>and[/i] the reduction of spectrum space for the mode, the obvious long-term goal IS the elimination of CW.

ka9ekg

12-27-2006, 03:48 PM

AD7DK:Yep.I too would like to see Favre go out with a bang.He is the best QB around.Shame he has all rookies except Donald Driver ti throw to.The Saints are the sleeper team this year.Hope they make it to the super bowl..............

kc7gnm

12-27-2006, 04:14 PM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 26 2006,22:41)]Quote[/b] (ka9uce @ Dec. 23 2006,12:28)]Those of you who love CW can keep it, I'll keep my service monitor warmed up for the day you break your CW transmitter and DON'T KNOW HOW TO REPAIR IT!
BULLs*$^!!! #What an arrogant and ignorant statement! #If I break my best CW rig, I'll repair it. #I know how because I designed and built it! #(And no, it's not on my website... I save it for special fun, like SKN).

Or I'll look up more data on how to improve it using the computer I built.
I don't think he meant just you but most hams in general could not repair their own rig if they even knew how to remove the case on the radio. At least that goes for some of the extras I have met. In fact I have had to go to some of these hams houses to help set up their packet station or aprs station. I think he said that because of the attitude of most higher class licenses that think the Techs know nothing at all just because they don't want to do CW.

ka9ekg

12-27-2006, 04:45 PM

Hey:What are you paying for reg.gas in your area?We are paying $2.39 a gallon............................................ .....

kc7gnm

12-27-2006, 04:57 PM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 27 2006,10:58)]Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Dec. 25 2006,17:00)]Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 26 2006,11:13)]Quote[/b] (kc7gnm @ Dec. 25 2006,10:55)]And your response is also the reason why it should be eliminated.
His response has absolutely nothing to do with whether CW should be eliminated or not. #Nothing.
WRONG!!!
CW isn't being eliminated, just the test.
Read the quote. #I am not wrong - I didn't say CW was being eliminated, he did. #I said his comment was not related to the statement. #(Although there are a lot of people with that goal, they haven't won yet.)
I never said CW should be eliminated. I was refering to the testing of CW. That is what this whole debate is about.

kc7gnm

12-27-2006, 04:59 PM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 27 2006,11:00)]Quote[/b] (N2MMM @ Dec. 25 2006,17:00)]CW isn't being eliminated, just the test.
Not yet. #However, taken together; the elimination of the exam, <u>and[/i] the reduction of spectrum space for the mode, the obvious long-term goal IS the elimination of CW.
The space for CW has not been reduced. CW can be used anywhere in the ham bands. Apparently you have not been looking at a band plan lately. CW is the only mode that is afforded the whole band to operate in so where exactly are you losing space at?

ka9ekg

12-27-2006, 05:28 PM

Who do you think was the best President that the U.S.A. had and why?.............................................. ...............................

ka9ekg

12-27-2006, 05:30 PM

Do you think global warming is here and why?...................

ka9ekg

12-27-2006, 05:32 PM

Nyone have a extra 3-500Z for sale,and how much?

ka9ekg

12-27-2006, 05:34 PM

What does a loaf of bread cost in your area?

ka9ekg

12-27-2006, 05:36 PM

What does a gallon of milk cost in your area?

n9msh

12-27-2006, 06:02 PM

Quote[/b] (AD7DK @ Dec. 27 2006,07:13)]I'm a life long Packer fan and I would love to see them beat Chicago and maybe make it into the playoffs. It would be a nice way for Favre to finish a great career. I would really love to see that.... but I don't think they have a snowballs chance. Chicago has a tough team this year.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif It would be nice if they did win, since there would be some awesome parties to pursue, and something to discuss rather than bet that dead horse of code vs. no code.
but then again i guess it's all no code now http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

wg7x

12-27-2006, 08:54 PM

Hey guys!

Just to check, I skipped this entire thread, except for the last page, and guess what?

Sure enough, two guys beating each other up. Its always like that, especially on these types of topics. When the debate is finished, the fight begins.

I don't think I'll go back thru the forty some(!) odd pages of tripe.

I think I'll just hit myself over the head with a 2X4. That would hurt less and be over sooner... On second thought, maybe I'll just go tune through 20 meters.

Cee Ya!

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Gary

kb3ojg

12-27-2006, 10:15 PM

I was RIGHT!
The Morse code test has NEVER benn solely about 'proficiency". It HAS served as a filter against otherwise qualified individuals:

Two quotes:

"Obviously no competent person can be denied the right to become an amateur. The only justifiable restrictive procedure is to raise the standards of competency. This has already been done to the point where it is many times more difficult to secure an amateur operator’s license than it was ten years ago. Increasing the code speed requirement is one step in this direction. ..." Clinton B. DeSoto

"Considering that the written part of the examination may be mastered with relative ease, the chief opportunity for a better selective process resides with the code examination. ..."

So it has NEVER been about theory proficiency. (This explains why the aggressively "know-code" side of the 'debate' has always obsessed about WPM --- They are heirs to a tradition which has -- until fairly recently -- been successful in browbeating the FCC into monkeying around with the code-speed requirements. (Kinda like how the ones who didn't mind stripping General-class ops. of their frequency privileges for 'incentive licensing' back in 1968.)

If it had EVER been about CW as a mode, they never would have gotten aggressive about it, and whether it was a licensing-requirement would be irrelevant. I saw through it from squre one -- "proud to be a KNOW-CODE ham?" Since when have you heard Fast-scan TV ops. bloviating on about how their "proud to be a FAST-SCAN ham?" Come on, people -- if the NoCoders are happy about this, the fault is strictly with the aggressive "KNOW-CODE' mentality.

How many MORE threads are we going to see here in qrz.com about this topic, I wonder?

kb3ojg

12-27-2006, 10:30 PM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 27 2006,07:54)][quote=kb3ojg,Dec. 26 2006,00:06]. I said "fit in" to ham radio. What already exists (but has been seriously damaged by BOTH extremes in this debate) is a group of people who like radio for radio's sake, who have developed certain procedures and languages because they work, who are friendly and helpful to newcomers, and assist them in "learning the ropes", who keep their equipment in top operating condition (whether new or old), who actually give back to the public which lets them use the frequencies, who stand ready to use their equipment, expertise, and good will to help others in need, who are always learning and seeking more knowledge. People who cross national and cultural boundaries with good will. People who are constantly experimenting and seeking better technology, and sharing that with others. That is the ham radio I know.

Just exactly what part of the above do you have a problem with?
I don't have a "problem" with ANY of what you said, never did. In fact what you describe is a large part of why I decided to get BACK INTO ham radio after several years absence. Yes, CW "works" -- and fast-scan "works' -- and SSB "works", and FSK "works", etc. etc. etc. ALL of these modes "work" fof what they're designed to do -- but none of the other modes have the visceral emotionalism attatched to them that accompanies Morse Code.

Newsflash: a significant number of the "no-coders" that are assumed to mostly all be 'beginners' have been involved for more than a decade now, but the disrespect that's dripping off of the "know-code" side of this debate is just dissapointing.

And no, I am not taking the no-coders' "side" -- I am on the side of a vision of Amateur radio that is basically what you described. I am NOT on the side of a "vision of ham radio" that views CW proficiency as a "special secret-club handshake".

By the way (on a side-topic) the idea of Echolink confused me at first --- it must have come along during my absence -- but I have nothing against it as a linking technology. I think the idea of Echolink "contesting" is cheesy, but ANYTHING can be misused (even Morse Code, when it's used as a secret-handshake to keep out the 'wrong' type of people.)

So calm down, take a deep breath, and prepare to welcome a bunch of new Generals/Extras (some of which will probably use CW actively IF told about it's utility/fun as a mode WITHOUT the snotty "Proud to be a Know-Code ham" attitude that goes along with it so often.

(Like I said, no wonder so many of 'em hate CW.)

KB9VSB

12-27-2006, 10:43 PM

I think Global warming is a natural event that happens every billon years or so. We couldn't stop it if we wanted to.:D

KB9VSB

12-27-2006, 10:49 PM

I think Brett favre is getting the Blame for a poor offensive line and a Cross eyed coach reading the wrong plays. He is like Dan Moreno in his last year when Miami had a team of rookies and a veteran Quarterback. He was as good as he evr was but his team kept letting him down. Brett can't Make completions if no one can get to the ball or protect the Quarterback. I bet if he got traded to the Saints or the Seahawks He would win another Super ball Ring!

kb3ojg

12-27-2006, 11:07 PM

Quote[/b] (K4JF @ Dec. 26 2006,21:49)]
Somebody (didn't bother to take note of his callsign), wanted my "humble" opinion on several questions. Here goes:

1. "what's wrong with 15 years of (blah blah blah)" --- what do you mean "15 years of reduction?" Read some of the manuals from the 1940s, Mr. Extra-man, and you'll see that your "Extra" ticket from 1989, in many wayy, by YOUR 'logic', doesn't even qualify you for anything. So tell us, Mr. Extra-man, did you have to travel 200 miles or more to an FCC field-office, demonstrate BOTH sending AND recieving code-proficiency, build something, or have to diagram out schematics BY HAND -- OR have to answer essay-type questions? I don't think so, but you still persist in braying away about your "mettle" as compared to those licensed after you.

Sorry, Gramps, didn't know that you had to walk ten miles to school, UP HILL BOTH WAYS! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Licensing should be regarded as a BEGINNING -- not as an end-in-itself, but for far too many in the "fraternity" it IS seen as an end-in-itself. Your disparaging -- and woefully misinformed -- bloviating about the lack of "mettle" in present-day applicants/licensees is an ample demonstration of that fact.

So tell us, Mr. Extra-Man: please pray tell give us a year after which the "dumbing-down" began? I sincerely doubt that the time period you choose will be earlier than 1989 (which will demonstrate my point even more eloquently!)

Tell me something: are you one of those tguys who gets a big rush out of how many mobile rigs he has under the dashboard? Just curious.

And while we're on the subject -- it's somewhat ironic that the FCC --- a GOVERNMENT AGENCY -- taking steps to improve their own efficiency -- would be greeted with this type of reaction.

After reading Mr. Extra-Man's comments, I'm almost beginning to hope that the future "NCG's" and "NCE's" as the KNOW-CODE side calls them -- DO run amateur radio into the ground, if for no other reason than it'll seriously annoy people like him.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

ka9ekg

12-27-2006, 11:43 PM

Yep:It is a shame that Favre had to waste his talent on such a lousey team........................................

kb3ojg

12-27-2006, 11:54 PM

Got a question, and an offer for y'all:

1. Let's all run with Mr. Extra-Man's concept here. Just when, exactly, do YOU think that the Ham radio community lost it's "mettle"? Come on, folks -- this'll be fun! We can all get into the spirit of "when I was your age, you damn kids don't know how lucky you are/turn that loud obnoxious rock music down!" and have fun.

2. Let's also have some discussion to settle once and for all who exactly are "real" hams?

A. Are CW-only ops. who don't build their own equipment "real" hams?

B. What about CW/Voice ops. who DO build their own equipment?

C. What about someone who's hardcore into contesting, but doesn't do CW and doesn't build the gear?

Or is it more complex than that? Does it have some kind of "decoder ring" aspect to it, like "Voice contesters who don't build their gear are 'real' hams, provided they were licencensed prior to July of 1965?" I'm genuinely curious, seeing as the rhetoric of those who are disgruntled by the recent FCC decision seems to revolve around the idea that such-and-such class of licensees who don't do such-and-such activity or were licensed after such-and-such a time aren't "real" hams. So let's run with it. Yes, I'm calling you out, Mr. Extra-man (and all who have similar opinions) -- come RIGHT out and say your peace, but be as specific as I have here. Tick off all of your pet peeves in regard to mode/year of license aquisition/permissible activities/etc. Or can't you do that? It would save all of us who might not qualify as "real" hams via your -- probably very diffierent -- definitions some serious hassle.

Now here's my offer:

2. Those of you who've mentioned on the various (and proliferating) "oh-this-is-so-sad-and-will-kill-ham-radio" threads that you were thinking of dropping out of ham radio/shredding your license/selling your gear? Cool. I'll take it all. (Since I'm a nice fellow, I'll pay you a penny per object, and you can donate the money you get from the deal to FISTS, ARRL, or a suitable charity of your choice. You can find my info under my callisign, of course.

The good part of this is: you're guaranteed to be rid of all that gear you're not going to be using since the hobby is 'ruined', and I get a whole bunch of good deals which I can then happily re-sell to all of the incoming NCG/NCE's. We ALL WIN! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

73 DE kb3ojg