May have been smarter than we thought

[kc7mrq]

link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20061129/sc_livescience/scientistsunravelmysteryofancientgreekmachine)

[G8ADD]

I have long suspected that the ancient Greeks were on the point of an industrial revolution which was abhorted by the Roman invasion. If they had continued to develope then an industrial civilisation would have evolved perhaps a thousand years earlier than it did. It is interesting to speculate what the world would be like today if that had happened!

73

Brian G8ADD

[W2ILP]

I have little doubt that geniuses existed ...even for centuries B.C. Because of poor communication and transportation in those days the knowledge of the human genius was unable to be spread and be shared and built up upon to progress as rapidly as it would today. This is especially true in the field of astronomy. The stars have always been linked to religions and psudo-sciences, from the eaerlist times that men began to study stars and try to find meaning in their postitions and movements. Thus was developed an entire psudo-science of astrology that linked with the early polytheistic religions and named the constellations and related them to the fortunes of men on Earth in any way that they could. It is interesting that similar types of astrology seem to have arose in Ancient times on all of the continents of Earth....entirely independent of each other! We know something of the astrology of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, peoples of India...and also the people of Central America. They all seemed to believe that the stars werre there to tell us something. It would be interesting to learn if ancient celestial navigation was more of a religion, a psudo-religion or a science. The history of mechanical clocks is also interesting. We do not know what time it was when the first clock was set. There are also some ancient maps of the heavens that show stars that are now believed to not have been visible without waiting for the telecscope to be invented.

w2ilp (Initially Lost Physisists)...used both analog and digital techniques, without the usual prerequsites.

[W1GUH]

Quote[/b] (W2ILP @ Nov. 29 2006,10:42)]I have little doubt that geniuses existed ...even for centuries B.C. #Because of poor communication and transportation in those days the knowledge of the human genius was unable to be spread and be shared and built up upon to progress as rapidly as it would today. # This is especially true in the field of astronomy. #The stars have always been linked to religions and psudo-sciences, from the eaerlist times that men began to study stars and try to find meaning in their postitions and movements. #Thus was developed an entire psudo-science of astrology that linked with the early polytheistic religions and named the constellations and related them to the fortunes of men on Earth in any way that they could. #It is interesting that similar types of astrology seem to have arose in Ancient times on all of the continents of Earth....entirely independent of each other! #We know something of the astrology of the ancient Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, peoples of India...and also the people of Central America. #They all seemed to believe that the stars werre there to tell us something. #It would be interesting to learn if ancient celestial navigation was more of a religion, a psudo-religion or a science. #The history of mechanical clocks is also interesting. #We do not know what time it was when the first clock was set. # There are also some ancient maps of the heavens that show stars that are now believed to not have been visible without waiting for the telecscope to be invented.

w2ilp (Initially Lost Physisists)...used both analog and digital techniques, without the usual prerequsites.
This could be a very consuming interest for me. #It has been in the past but usually leads to dead ends because the tantalizing tidbits of what the ancients knew about "God, the Universe, and Everything" are only fragments that by themselves don't really say much.

The machine about which this thread was started is a case in point. #I'd probably give up body parts to be able to know who built it, how and why it was built, and why was it found where it was found. #

Or, more generally, what was lost in the library in Alexandria?

So much has been written about this and many theories have been put forward but in the end, at least for now, they're just theorys with not a lot of hard evidence to embrace one or the other.

But the questions are fascinating.

[G0GQK]

Its quite amazing that a Greek astrologer could have created such a device and I don't think that the Romans would have stifled such scientific activity. They were quite innovative themselves but like many countries in the following centuries spent far too much time killing and conquering.

It is not really true that transport and communication was difficult in those days. Many would be surprised at the amount of trading which existed between merchants in many places in Europe and the middle east. Merchants from the Mediterranean area are known to have sailed to Iceland.

G0GQK

[G0GQK]

The ancient astrological computer was lost from a Roman ship which sank of Antikythera Island in 65 BC. #The 82 parts of it were #found in 42 metres of water by a sponge diver in 1900. The device was created and developed by Hipparus of Rhodes.

[KC4HGH]

Oh, what we could have had, or where we would be today if the Library of Alexandria hadn't burned!

[WF7A]

That, and if Christianity hadn't taken foot as a religion. After all, it was a Christian mob that tore Hypatia (the head librarian at the time) from her chariot while on the way to work, flayed the skin off her bones with abalone shells, then burned her remains...then they burnt down the library since it was a repository of heathen/anti-christ activity. *wistful sigh*

If it weren't for religion we'd have another two thousand years of technology under our anti-gravity belts. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[al2n]

Quote[/b] (WF7A @ Nov. 30 2006,16:02)]That, and if Christianity hadn't taken foot as a religion. After all, it was a Christian mob that tore Hypatia (the head librarian at the time) from her chariot while on the way to work, flayed the skin off her bones with abalone shells, then burned her remains...then they burnt down the library since it was a repository of heathen/anti-christ activity. *wistful sigh*

If it weren't for religion we'd have another two thousand years of technology under our anti-gravity belts. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Sad but true.

The dark ages is where a great amount of knowlege was lost in the name of God. Just do not confuse the actions of Zealots as for what God intended.

Technology has been gained and lost many times throughout history. Those who think that man was nothing but a bunch of nomadic herders or were unable to grasp invention back then are mistaken.

[n2nh]

Quote[/b] (al2n @ Nov. 30 2006,18:40)]Quote[/b] (WF7A @ Nov. 30 2006,16:02)]That, and if Christianity hadn't taken foot as a religion. After all, it was a Christian mob that tore Hypatia (the head librarian at the time) from her chariot while on the way to work, flayed the skin off her bones with abalone shells, then burned her remains...then they burnt down the library since it was a repository of heathen/anti-christ activity. *wistful sigh*

If it weren't for religion we'd have another two thousand years of technology under our anti-gravity belts. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Sad but true.

The dark ages is where a great amount of knowlege was lost in the name of God. Just do not confuse the actions of Zealots as for what God intended.

Technology has been gained and lost many times throughout history. Those who think that man was nothing but a bunch of nomadic herders or were unable to grasp invention back then are mistaken.
I've often wondered if there isn't more to this. It seems every time Man is posed to make a great technological leap, something comes along to derail it. Carl Sagan believed that the library at Alexandria would've provided a great knowlege base if it hadn't been burned. Today, we've been to the Moon, but not in over 30 years. Getting to Mars is harder to get to than it was 30 years ago too.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[ka5piu]

Hello.

It was a little over 200 years ago that steam power was introduced as a means of practical locomotion.
It would seem that man was on that very verge when the Christians went bonkers a little under 2000 years ago.
http://www.whyislam.org/877/

[KG6YTZ]

I, too, sometimes wonder what the world would be like today if the Dark Ages had never happened, and we hadn't spent century upon century regarding science and the quest for knowledge as heresy. #I mean, the very notion that we are NOT at the center of the universe and all those lights in the sky do NOT revolve around us, watching over us and guiding our destinies... #Unforgiveable!!! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ Nov. 30 2006,23:56)]Hello.

It was a little over 200 years ago that steam power was introduced as a means of practical locomotion.
It would seem that man was on that very verge when the Christians went bonkers a little under 2000 years ago.
http://www.whyislam.org/877/
Are Christians "bonkers"?

[KG6YTZ]

uh-oh...

[ka5piu]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 01 2006,01:26)]Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ Nov. 30 2006,23:56)]Hello.

It was a little over 200 years ago that steam power was introduced as a means of practical locomotion.
It would seem that man was on that very verge when the Christians went bonkers a little under 2000 years ago.
http://www.whyislam.org/877/
Are Christians "bonkers"?
Hello.

In an era when SOME Christians were killing everybody who was not a convert.
And, in this timeframe tried to kill off all of the Jews, it was the Muslims who kept them alive.
Went on rampages, calling any scientific discovery blaspamy and setting fire to it.
It started with the crusades and went from there.
We have Some Christians who talk about the "revelations".
This states that Israel must exist, that the Anti-Christ will come and lead all nations against Israel, and that after nuking Israel all will be fine, a return to the garden of eden.
In a nutshell, wipe out all the cities of the world, kill off all the Jews and live like it started, caveman style.
On a par with Osama, nuts.

[G8ADD]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 01 2006,01:26)]Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ Nov. 30 2006,23:56)]Hello.

It was a little over 200 years ago that steam power was introduced as a means of practical locomotion.
It would seem that man was on that very verge when the Christians went bonkers a little under 2000 years ago.
http://www.whyislam.org/877/
Are Christians "bonkers"?
Some are, some aren't, but the ones that burned the library were by our standards.

With fundamentalism on the rise in all major religions I fear that another dark age will arise and much of our knowledge will be lost. If this happens we won't have much of a chance of a new renaissance, with easily accessed fossil fuels and ores exhausted. Enjoy your technology, it's our only shot!

73

Brian G8ADD

[W1GUH]

Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Nov. 30 2006,09:33)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 01 2006,01:26)]Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ Nov. 30 2006,23:56)]Hello.

It was a little over 200 years ago that steam power was introduced as a means of practical locomotion.
It would seem that man was on that very verge when the Christians went bonkers a little under 2000 years ago.
http://www.whyislam.org/877/
Are Christians "bonkers"?
Some are, some aren't, but the ones that burned the library were by our standards.

With fundamentalism on the rise in all major religions I fear that another dark age will arise and much of our knowledge will be lost. If this happens we won't have much of a chance of a new renaissance, with easily accessed fossil fuels and ores exhausted. Enjoy your technology, it's our only shot!

73

Brian G8ADD
"Enjoy your technology, it's our only shot!"

I think that often.
But...

I also notice that today's technology seems much more distributed amongst "just plain folk" than in the past and maybe, just maybe, that's what will prevent any possible future dark ages.

For instance, the internet is nothing if not distributed, and it would be really, really difficult to do the kind of damage to it that the library suffered. #Moreover, it's built and maintained, not by the power elite, but by, again, "just plain folk" - lots and lots of them...with lots more who would be willing and able to join the effort to defend and maintain it. #Plus, all the accumulated knowledge that is stored on it is redundantly distributed in many places.

In other words, I'm starting to believe that a technolgy melt-down is in, or is approaching, a place where it will survive regardless of what the future holds.

[G8ADD]

Quote[/b] (W1GUH @ Dec. 01 2006,08:44)]Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Nov. 30 2006,09:33)]Quote[/b] (al2i @ Dec. 01 2006,01:26)]Quote[/b] (ka5piu @ Nov. 30 2006,23:56)]Hello.

It was a little over 200 years ago that steam power was introduced as a means of practical locomotion.
It would seem that man was on that very verge when the Christians went bonkers a little under 2000 years ago.
http://www.whyislam.org/877/
Are Christians "bonkers"?
Some are, some aren't, but the ones that burned the library were by our standards.

With fundamentalism on the rise in all major religions I fear that another dark age will arise and much of our knowledge will be lost. If this happens we won't have much of a chance of a new renaissance, with easily accessed fossil fuels and ores exhausted. Enjoy your technology, it's our only shot!

73

Brian G8ADD
"Enjoy your technology, it's our only shot!"

I think that often.
But...

I also notice that today's technology seems much more distributed amongst "just plain folk" than in the past and maybe, just maybe, that's what will prevent any possible future dark ages.

For instance, the internet is nothing if not distributed, and it would be really, really difficult to do the kind of damage to it that the library suffered. #Moreover, it's built and maintained, not by the power elite, but by, again, "just plain folk" - lots and lots of them...with lots more who would be willing and able to join the effort to defend and maintain it. #Plus, all the accumulated knowledge that is stored on it is redundantly distributed in many places.

In other words, I'm starting to believe that a technolgy melt-down is in, or is approaching, a place where it will survive regardless of what the future holds.
It would be nice if I could buy into that, Paul, but once the power is off all the technology is junk. Once the fuel runs out there is no transport, and soon no food, or water. No sewage disposal. No radio, TV or even newspapers. Once it breaks down it goes all the way.

Suppose that we have a major breakdown and a dark age. Suppose that books survive so that we know how to make the technology. Could we do it? I suspect that it would be extremely difficult. Take electricity, for example. You would need copper for conductors, but the accessible high grade ores are gone, after say a thousand years the copper mined in our era has corroded away, and you need technology to process the low grade ores. Catch 22!

Plenty of decent iron ore remains, so I reckon that it would be possible to get back to something approaching a mid nineteenth century technology, but with zinc, tin and copper almost unobtainable and fuel from burning wood and charcoal the norm, it would be difficult indeed to progress further.

Perhaps I am too pessimistic?

73

Brian G8ADD

[KA9VQF]

Quote[/b] ] {from the artical}
The researchers plan to create a computer model of how the Antikythera Mechanism worked and eventually a working replica

I wonder how long before Wal-Mart has a nice Chinese made plastic one for sale. I just know I'll be buying one.

[W1GUH]

Quote[/b] ]Perhaps I am too pessimistic?


I think this could go either way, or maybe I'm being to optimistic. #

There's lots of reason to have hope in future technologies to alleviate the problems brought on by using up the stuff we've been cheaply digging up out of the ground. #The social disorder this might cause, though, is cause for worry.

Man, trying to write about this is kinda difficult. #The more I type the more stuff comes flooding in.

Questions like...

How many ways are there to have a breakdown?

Running out of resources is one...massive war is another...social breakdown and massive disorder is another...

I'm hesitant to persue this.

[K8MHZ]

I would like to know why this machine was built.

To our knowledge the position of the stars and other heavenly bodies mattered for reasons that seem to be strictly ceremonial for the civilizations of the era and area. #The seasons would matter for farming, but not the positions of the planets.

Was there more to the information that the computer provided than we know? #

Not only remarkable, the computer was the result of the finest of minds using the most advanced technology of the times.

In order to be as accurate as it seems to be there must have been some way to calibrate it. #Were records kept from the past sufficient to provide a form of reverse calibration or was it used for many years and adjusted? #If the device was built hundreds of years BC there doesn't seem to be enough time prior to that to have a written language capable of keeping such accurate records and if it was used for many years why wasn't it part of recorded history?

Were there other forms of mechanical computers being built at that time? #It seems odd that if there was only one we would find it smashed to bits on the floor of the ocean. #More logical would be the assumption that there were many and only one managed to be found.

Another curiosity is the lack of discussion in history about having the device or the ability to make the designed predictions. #Why would it be constructed at such great costs and never used? #Surely a device this remarkable would have either been funded by kings or be used by kings and would have made it's mark on recorded history.

There are many more questions that can be asked about this supposedly over 2000 year old computer whose answers may change our understanding of history. #I hope they are pursued.

[WF7A]

Speaking of energy sources, I've wondered about this one lately: with all the oil that's being pumped out of the Earth, won't that affect its orbital wobble and/or earthquake fault lines somehow? Technically, the mass of the Earth would be unchanged just that the liquid (oil) has been turned into a gas, and redistributed, but still...

Don't lose any sleep over this one. :S

[G8ADD]

Quote[/b] (k8mhz @ Dec. 01 2006,14:32)]I would like to know why this machine was built.

To our knowledge the position of the stars and other heavenly bodies mattered for reasons that seem to be strictly ceremonial for the civilizations of the era and area. #The seasons would matter for farming, but not the positions of the planets.

Was there more to the information that the computer provided than we know? #

Not only remarkable, the computer was the result of the finest of minds using the most advanced technology of the times.

In order to be as accurate as it seems to be there must have been some way to calibrate it. #Were records kept from the past sufficient to provide a form of reverse calibration or was it used for many years and adjusted? #If the device was built hundreds of years BC there doesn't seem to be enough time prior to that to have a written language capable of keeping such accurate records and if it was used for many years why wasn't it part of recorded history?

Were there other forms of mechanical computers being built at that time? #It seems odd that if there was only one we would find it smashed to bits on the floor of the ocean. #More logical would be the assumption that there were many and only one managed to be found.

Another curiosity is the lack of discussion in history about having the device or the ability to make the designed predictions. #Why would it be constructed at such great costs and never used? #Surely a device this remarkable would have either been funded by kings or be used by kings and would have made it's mark on recorded history.

There are many more questions that can be asked about this supposedly over 2000 year old computer whose answers may change our understanding of history. #I hope they are pursued.
Data on solar and lunar eclipses in particular had been recorded from Sumerian times leading to the discovery of the periodicities that enabled the prediction of eclipses, and there was a strong interest in celestial phenomena of all kinds. It seems that much of this was for what we now call astrological reasons, but the Greeks had a passion for knowledge, much of which has been lost along with much of their drama and poetry. The purpose of the computer must have been prediction for the forward casting of horoscopes but the Greeks were hot on education and it might have functioned as a teaching aid, too. There was much money and prestige associated with divination and astrology, but slavery was practised too, and an enslaved artisan capable of constructing this device would have worked for little more than the cost of food, clothing and accommodation. I would say that we have no record of this device because of the destruction of the libraries, but it occurs to me that it might have been a closely guarded trade secret!

We know that other technological devices were constructed; the crane and pumps come to mind, and there was Hero's steam engine, though I don't know if that was actually constructed. All the intellectual ferment of Greece came to an end when the Romans dismantled the Greek world for slaves and loot, but the Romans were a very practical and down to Earth people, and discarded what they saw no use for.

It is worth noting that archaeologists have unearthed a workshop in Athens which employed many people making armaments and seems to have used division of labour; the foundations of mass production were discovered hundreds of years BC!

The Greek civilisation had huge faults that eventually led to its downfall, but it remains perhaps the greatest might-have-been of recorded history!

73

Brian G8ADD

[ka5piu]

Hello.

Yes, a lot what is old is now new.
The big trouble is that a lot of what has happened has nothing but a cycle.
So, will we step back in time?
China is one of the few countries really working on the energy issue.
Hydorelectric and nuclear sit high on the list for Chinas future.
France is busy building reactor after reactor, failure is not an option, or so the French say.
However, no matter what, we will be at an energy plateau in a few years.
That will be the end of cheap energy, and with it the huge SUV things that are totally silly anyway, come on people, a Cadillac SUV?

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (WF7A @ Dec. 01 2006,13:44)]Speaking of energy sources, I've wondered about this one lately: with all the oil that's being pumped out of the Earth, won't that affect its orbital wobble and/or earthquake fault lines somehow? Technically, the mass of the Earth would be unchanged just that the liquid (oil) has been turned into a gas, and redistributed, but still...

Don't lose any sleep over this one. :S
Since angular momentum must be preserved, the steady melting of the planet's ice caps over the last 13,000 years or so has slowed the rotation a bit. This probably can randomize the whirls and swirls of the super-liquid, electrically conductive core, causing a decrease in the intensity -- and possibly an eventual loss -- of the Earth's magnetic field. This has happened before.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Dec. 02 2006,01:49)]The Greek civilisation had huge faults that eventually led to its downfall, but it remains perhaps the greatest might-have-been of recorded history!
Maybe some features of the civilization did not select for the smartest people to have the most offspring and they simply dumbed down as the population's average IQ dropped.

[n2nh]

The Greeks Quote[/b] ]May have been smarter than we thought

I'm willing to bet that we're stupider than they thought we'd be too. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[G8ADD]

No takers!

73

Brian G8ADD

[ka5s]

Check out Otto Neugebauer's 1952 book The Exact Sciences in Antiquity (http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=57027018) and see just how far the ancients had advanced. I also recommend The Universal History of Numbers, (http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/000714.php) by Georges Ifrah.

Some thousand years before the Greeks adopted the present alphabet the Babylonians (http://www.astro.virginia.edu/class/chevalier/astr341/babylonia.html) were already predicting the positions of Venus; their math was accurate enough, had it occurred to them, and had they sufficiently mastered bronze, to build their own Mechanism. There have even been arguments put forward that ancient monuments such as Stonehenge (3100-2000BC) (http://witcombe.sbc.edu/earthmysteries/EMStonehengeD.html)were in fact astronomical calculators.


Cortland
KA5S

[K8MHZ]

Quote[/b] ]This probably can randomize the whirls and swirls of the super-liquid, electrically conductive core, causing a decrease in the intensity -- and possibly an eventual loss -- of the Earth's magnetic field. This has happened before.


My land! How long was it lost and where did they eventually find it?

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (k8mhz @ Dec. 03 2006,18:10)]Quote[/b] ]This probably can randomize the whirls and swirls of the super-liquid, electrically conductive core, causing a decrease in the intensity -- and possibly an eventual loss -- of the Earth's magnetic field. This has happened before.


My land! How long was it lost and where did they eventually find it?
What is interesting is that when the Earth's magnetic field eventually reorganizes again, sometimes the magnetic poles are switched. This is evidenced in the geologic record.