Engineers Who Can't Solder a Wire? [Archive]

N1LAF

11-18-2006, 01:23 AM

Jim, there are good reasons why engineers cannot solder, mostly because its not (most) engineers job to solder, and with companies that have unions(like where I work), it would be a grevious action for an engineer to do something that would resemble a technician job. Would you believe my justification to use OrCAD Schematic Capture is for circuit analysis and firmware development? Otherwise, I could not 'use' it.

Even though I am an engineer, because of my Navy Electronics Technician background, I can solder to NASA specs.

Yeah 0603 is small, I use them, as well as TTSOP packages, but they are not as bad as you might think. One of my vendors uses a toaster oven to populate SMT boards, I kid you not. Here is the process. When a board is done layout, and gerber plots are generated, when the PCB's are manufactured, he will also have an aluminum solder mask template manufactured. He places the template over the PCB, and squeegee's the solder paste across the mask plate. Then he will hand place the components with tweezers, and a magnifying glass for those high density pin devices. The solder paste is sticky, and the componets stick into place. The PCB is placed on a special tray with a temperature crayon into the toaster oven. When the crayon starts to melt, the PCB is removed from the toaster oven, and is cleaned and inspected. They look great. Takes about 4 minutes.

toaster over example 1 (http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/200006/oven_art.htm)
Circuit Cellar SMT reflow oven controller (http://www.circuitcellar.com/library/print/0704/Lacoste_168/index.htm)
Toaster oven with stencil (http://articulationllc.home.comcast.net/sm0402.htm) - Also shows 0402 capacitors
Example 2 (PDF) (http://www.nutsvolts.com/PDF_Files/SMT.pdf)

N1LAF

11-18-2006, 01:27 AM

PS: When you see SMT parts described as 0603, 0402, and the popular 0805; 0805 really means the device size is 0.08" by 0.05".

K9STH

11-18-2006, 01:38 AM

When I was first employed at Collins Radio (April of 1967) the first day's assignment for a newly graduated engineer was to learn the color code. The second day's assignment was to learn how to solder.

Now those who had an amateur radio operator's license were "assumed" to know the color code and how to solder so they didn't have to start at this level.

Glen, K9STH

w5alt

11-18-2006, 01:39 AM

What do you mean there are engineers who can't solder a wire?

What's a wire?

73,
Walt, W5ALT

w8cbc

11-18-2006, 01:49 AM

You don't even need to know Ohm's Law to get hired as a chief engineer in broadcasting these days. I know a guy who didn't, and did. Pffft.

As for soldering, I can do a decent job as small as through-hole PC boards. I tend to leave SMT alone unless I've no choice. Those toaster-oven articles are neat though. I likely wouldn't have made the necessary connection on my own. I've lost a few steps upstairs.

N1LAF

11-18-2006, 02:05 AM

Glen, as you know we have come a long way from 1967. we are not dealing with wires and color coded resistors. The resistors I use are SMT and color coded resistors are rare where I work. From 1967, we have gone from transistors and NOSFETS to IC chips, microprocessors and microcontrollers, computers, in-system reprogrammable FPGA's, CPLD's and microcontrollers. Today, I am working with FPGA's with soft core microcontrollers that are programmed into an FPGA device. The same FPGA device has analog inputs with 12 bit A/D support. Soon we will have in-system reprogrammable FPGA System-on-a-chip, with soft microcontrollers and analog input/output.

See the future:
Actel Fusion FPGA (http://www.actel.com/products/fusion/)

Lattice Semiconductor FPGA with 32 bit soft processor (http://www.latticesemi.com/products/intellectualproperty/ipcores/mico32/index.cfm?jsessionid=ba3017250758$3F$3Fom)

AE6IP

11-18-2006, 03:29 AM

Quote[/b] (w8cbc @ Nov. 17 2006,17:49)]You don't even need to know Ohm's Law to get hired as a chief engineer in broadcasting these days. I know a guy who didn't, and did. Pffft.
I was in broadcasting from 73 through 83. In those 10 years, not once did I need to know Ohm's law to do my job as a station engineer.

Did do a lot of soldering though. These days there's not even much call for that in a station.

I think that far worse than not knowing Ohm's law is thinking that it's "I=ER".

Amazing the number of people who think they know Ohm's law when they don't.

ky5u

11-18-2006, 03:47 AM

You obviously did not work with AM Transmitters.

ky5u

11-18-2006, 03:50 AM

I think the article holds AR up as a unique service where some vestage of hands on competence still exists. It makes the point that techie types are going to IT fields as many here have said. I guess the obvious question is, does our present direction in reduced testing standards take us in the direction of the useful role the author states, or away from it?

wv6z

11-18-2006, 03:51 AM

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Nov. 16 2006,17:16)]Give me a Metcal and a microscope -- I can do SMT, and I'm an engineer.

But... #I engineer software, and everything I learned about soldering came from ham radio and being "into" electronics. #Making a living at it is "peripheral." #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

73, Rob
Me too Rob, but in my case, my ability may stem from NOT being an electrical or mechanical engineer. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

KM5FL

11-18-2006, 03:58 AM

One day at work, us "grunts" were kidding around with the resident engineer, trying to explain to him that Pi R square is wrong, Pi R round and cake r square... Well, the next day, the engineer showed up with a round 3 layer chocolate cake, shouting at the top of his lungs, "SEE I TOLD YOU SO!!!!"

KM5FL

AE6IP

11-18-2006, 04:10 AM

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Nov. 17 2006,19:50)]I think the article holds AR up as a unique service where some vestage of hands on competence still exists. It makes the point that techie types are going to IT fields as many here have said. I guess the obvious question is, does our present direction in reduced testing standards take us in the direction of the useful role the author states, or away from it?
With the key word being 'vestigial'.

Since element 1 has nothing to do with hands on competence, nor have the written tests ever, the answer is: the testing standard changes make no difference.

As far as relevance of skills, a fixation on "Better Be Right Or Your Great Big Venture Goes West" in an era of surface mount resistors speaks volumes.

N2RJ

11-18-2006, 04:18 AM

Well in reality, as many here have said, an engineer doesn't have to solder. Engineers just plan and design.

K9STH

11-18-2006, 04:29 AM

According to the late Justin Wilson: Pi are round corn bread are square!

Glen, K9STH

NC5P

11-18-2006, 04:37 AM

If you are an EE working for a very small startup company you may very well find yourself on the bench soldering. I've worked for several such firms. When you go to a bigger company (like where I am now) you have to just leave it up to the techs or get into a lot of trouble.

n8yx

11-18-2006, 01:32 PM

Quote[/b] (NC5P @ Nov. 17 2006,21:37)]If you are an EE working for a very small startup company you may very well find yourself on the bench soldering. I've worked for several such firms. When you go to a bigger company (like where I am now) you have to just leave it up to the techs or get into a lot of trouble.
Most of the engineers - though not all of them - at my workplace know their way around a soldering iron, and the techs have a good working knowledge of CAD and SPICE- type programs.

Ofttimes, we are called upon to wear many hats. Mine is not a small company by any means.

Those rare individuals (EEs and all) who cannot differentiate between the cathode and anode end of a diode occasionally pass through these halls. It is left as an exercise to the reader to figure out what happens when a PCB full of their handiwork is powered up ...

My primary role these days is in software engineering, though I'm probably the only one in the bunch who is equally at home in the server room ... the board room ... prototyping labs or the machine shop.

ky5u

11-18-2006, 01:49 PM

Quote[/b] (NC5P @ Nov. 17 2006,21:37)]If you are an EE working for a very small startup company you may very well find yourself on the bench soldering. I've worked for several such firms. When you go to a bigger company (like where I am now) you have to just leave it up to the techs or get into a lot of trouble.
Right! Anyway, for awhile in my company, the CEO would take new HQ engineers and put them with me for a couple of weeks before they reported to their spiffy cubicle at the puzzle palace. Of course as we grew in size, that was not practical. But now one of our highest ranking VPs was one of my former trainees. Another group president and I worked together earlier in his career on a big project. Both of these guys were big converts to "common sense" decision making weighing heavily on paractical knowledge application. And I am very proud of both of them!

N1LAF

11-18-2006, 02:15 PM

I carry my electronics tookbox in my trunk everyday, including crimpers and soldering irons. For obvious reasons, I cannot confirm nor deny when I used those tools.

Small companies, start-ups, and consultants, engineers better know how to use soldering irons. That also goes for non-union workplaces.

I have my engineer diode story. This was about a year into my courses at UConn during a analog lab course. My teaching assistant was from WPI, and a real stickler for grammer, and seemed to have his nose in the air, talked very highly of WPI. I write like an engineer, so I always had red marks all over my papers. One day, we were proving superposition theory, I was well ahead with my circuit and taking measurements while the TA was still speaking. I was wrapping up my data when the TA came close and whispered asking if I got my circuit working and what was the current from my current source. I asked "1.37 milliamp, why?". He said he couldn't get the circuit to work and then asked me which way the diode goes. I showed him a diagram I used, and the markings on the diode and where the cathode/anode was relative to the band on the diode. He corrected the rest of the class, circuits were working, and the grammer red marks I had been getting, stopped. Prior to that lab, the TA didn't know his anode from his cathode.

I believe the best engineers were technicians, Amatuer radio operators, and hobbyists first.

KC5SAS

11-18-2006, 08:06 PM

My copy of MRT just came in the mail about an hour ago. Looking forward to reading the article.

WA7KKP

11-18-2006, 08:17 PM

Yep, all computer whizz kids who know the strings to pull to make Windoze do what you want it to . . . and haven't a clue of basic electronics.

A friend of mine (K7RKO) once interviewed a new BSEE applying for a job with HP (pre computer days). This engineer coudn't even draw a simple power supply, using a transformer, bridge rectifier and filter capacitor.

At least some hams do have a practical knowlege of what works and what doesn't, and how to make the latter the former.

It's a shame that the computer/IT industry pays above and beyond the average for the two-way and broadcast industries. That's why they got the First and Second Class tickets eliminated -- thereby opening the field to anyone who had an inkling of what to do. Helped drive wages down too.

Gary WA7KKP
holder of a First 'Phone since 1970

WA2ZDY

11-18-2006, 09:06 PM

Another reason I dropped out of college after four semesters of EE. First off I decided I preferred electronics as more of a hobby than a career. Second, I preferred then and now the practical to the theoretical.

I had a similar story in my first lab section in school. The professor, an elderly man who obviously had been an EE for many years was brilliant in the lecture room. In the lab though I don't believe he could have gotten one amp to flow through a one ohm resistor with a one volt source. Watching him in the lab, I was embarrassed for him. I dropped out and went to work in the state prison shortly after that rude awakening. And I'm certain to this day I made the right choice.

Everyone of us knows electrons flow from negative to positive, right? Well not if you ask an EE. In engineering current flows from postive to negative. And yes, if you do it backwards in formulae, you get an incorrect result.

I'm glad I'm retired now!

AE6IP

11-18-2006, 09:15 PM

Quote[/b] (WA7KKP @ Nov. 18 2006,12:17)]Yep, all computer whizz kids who know the strings to pull to make Windoze do what you want it to . . . and haven't a clue of basic electronics.

A friend of mine (K7RKO) once interviewed a new BSEE applying for a job with HP (pre computer days). This engineer coudn't even draw a simple power supply, using a transformer, bridge rectifier and filter capacitor.

At least some hams do have a practical knowlege of what works and what doesn't, and how to make the latter the former.

It's a shame that the computer/IT industry pays above and beyond the average for the two-way and broadcast industries. That's why they got the First and Second Class tickets eliminated -- thereby opening the field to anyone who had an inkling of what to do. Helped drive wages down too.

Gary WA7KKP
holder of a First 'Phone since 1970
If by "pre computer days" you mean before HP got into the computer business, that would have been sometime prior to 1970.

Sounds like your friend interviewed someone who got their degree out of a crackerjack box.

When it come to knowing technology, There seems to be two kinds of hams: those who got really good at 1960s applied elctrical tech and never seem to have gotten beyond it, and those who are really good at modern tech and view ham radio as a pleasant relaxing easy hobby.

It has gotten very tiresome to hear people who think that knowing how to cut a dipole is the epitome of electronics knowledge badmouth those who are skilled at the knowledge necessary for current technology.

N1LAF

11-18-2006, 11:24 PM

Chris, hate to do this but I have to disagree with you on a couple points. I don't know where you went to school, but I have found all the professors very knowledgeable. Teaching assistants (TA) are grad students working their way through college.

I see myself as a technician, ham, and engineer is that I can have my cake and eat it too. Best of both worlds. Both the technician side and the engineering side feeds each other. I have both the practical and the theoretical. Going from technician to engineering was a great path to take. I design circuits, I apply it to my hobbies, how can it get better?

Current flow does flow from positive to negative. Electron flow from negative to positive. Current flow is also referred to hole flow, and is used to describe semiconductors. There is historical reasons why the difference exists. Whether you use current flow or electron flow, consistently, the equations will come out the same. I don't know what 'formulae' you are referring to, it really doesn't make a difference.

Interesting links on current flow and electron flow:
CET.edu (http://iss.cet.edu/electricity/pages/b14.xml)
Maine Institute of memorial University of Newfoundland (http://www.mi.mun.ca/users/cchaulk/eltk1100/ivse/ivse.htm)

You being retired, this may be a great time to revisit engineering. At least you have many here to help you through homework.

AG3Y

11-19-2006, 04:02 AM

Amazing how so many threads on QRZ seem to wander away from the original statements. For instance, knowing the difference between "hole flow" and "electron flow" is a FAR CRY from knowing how to SOLDER ! ! !

I worked with a young man about 20 years my junior. He was a whiz-bang engineer, and highly dedicated. I would have to remind him of the time many an evening after we had worked on a problem for a couple of hours after "quitting time". But his soldering abilities were atrocious. I don't think he knew what in the world soldering flux was used for, and he never seemed to be able to get the components square on the pads. I sometimes had to spend the next half a day cleaning up the circuit board that he had hacked away on.

Great Engineer, Lousy soldering skills !

73, Jim ( now the argument of hole vs electron flow can resume, I'm done ! ) http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

K7JEM

11-19-2006, 04:44 AM

Wouldn't this be like an architect who couldn't lay bricks, or install an electrical outlet?

Is the purpose of an engineer to solder a connector on coax, or to place a component on a PC board?

They have a different function, and while many engineers can do these things, many cannot. Many technicians can't draw a circuit, or lay out a complex assembly.

Joe

N1LAF

11-19-2006, 05:40 AM

'JEM, you are right on point, and what I was trying to say on my first post on this thread. I will say it point blank. Soldering is not considered an engineering task, it was not taught soldering techniques at UConn. The article, while makes Amateur Radio look good, Meer is injecting a personal opinion rather a professional one. When I design circuits, I know everything about that circuit, the components selected, and its application. I know about capacitor blow-ups, happened to me... why? Because the technician didn't follow the instructions and installed it backwards. Review after the blow-up revealed this. It happens, and we don't persecute technicians for incidents like this.

Besides, if all designs worked as planned with no problems, then the engineer will be better than decent, wouldn't you think? So, I will disagree with Meer on this point.

More so, does knowing how to solder make you a better engineer, and the answer is no, it doesn't. More capable as a person, but not a better engineer.

ky5u

11-19-2006, 05:55 AM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Nov. 18 2006,14:15)]When it come to knowing technology, There seems to be two kinds of hams: those who got really good at 1960s applied elctrical tech and never seem to have gotten beyond it, and those who are really good at modern tech and view ham radio as a pleasant relaxing easy hobby.

It has gotten very tiresome to hear people who think that knowing how to cut a dipole is the epitome of electronics knowledge badmouth those who are skilled at the knowledge necessary for current technology.
Sometimes even Marty is wrong. I work with technology every day and also like being a "60's applied" tech. Nothing wrong with either one. What is wrong is someone so wrapped up in one that they totally disregard the people who like the other.

ky5u

11-19-2006, 06:01 AM

Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Nov. 18 2006,21:44)]Wouldn't this be like an architect who couldn't lay bricks, or install an electrical outlet?

Is the purpose of an engineer to solder a connector on coax, or to place a component on a PC board?

They have a different function, and while many engineers can do these things, many cannot. Many technicians can't draw a circuit, or lay out a complex assembly.

Joe
I am sure your brain is big enough to understand "soldering" as a euphemism for engineers with no practical knowledge. Same for an architect with no construction experience. I have found that engineers with a modicum of practical knowledge make better engineers whether it is soldering, testing, or participating in the application of their own design.

K7JEM

11-19-2006, 06:11 AM

Re-read the article. It's good, but it has some sort of agenda going. The guy quoted thinks an engineer has to have a capacitor blow up before he can understand why it happens. This is just foolishness.

Any competent engineer doesn't need a cap to blow up, or to know how to solder. That really isn't his job.

Joe

ab8ro

11-19-2006, 06:50 AM

Joe's being kind.

What an idiotic puff piece.

Quote[/b] ]
I worry about the amount of research that's going on or not going on," Meer said. "We don't really have the kind of raw scientific development that we had during the Cold War, or even in times before that.

Sources please?

Wireless communications has been a research hotspot for several years now . Hams aren't working with current applications and it's doubtful that they have been since well before WWII.

He cites Jeff Pulver and quotes him extensively. I'm not trying to minimize Pulver's contribution, but frankly, he hardly represents "cutting edge" in voip. For those that don't know he runs freeworlddialup.com.

It's a nice service (freeworlddialup), but it has little to do with ham radio and it's a stretch to start talking about how an amateur license leads to technical success. I suspect that the Apple II alone has spawned more technical careers than ham radio.

I read the endless references on here about the "dumbing down of america", but,few seem to make the connection that this rampant anti-intellectualism with regard to formal education is a key component of that movement.

ka0gkt

11-19-2006, 07:15 AM

When I first came to work at a major University, my family was far away and not planning to move for a few months (it turned out eo be years, but that is another story) I lives one Summer in a Dorm room (Hey, the rent was cheap). After teh other Summer residents figured out that I wasn't a Narc, a few would actually sit in the TV room with me and watch a ball game. One day, a second year EE student approached me and asked if I could teach him about vacuum tubes. I pulled an old copy of Eimac's care and feeding of power tubes booklet out of my briefcase, handed it to him and said "read this, then come to me with your questions".

Evidently, some of the reading material I gave the youngster must have spurred a few questions which needed to be answered more quickly than I was able to, so he posed a few questions to his professor...who telephoned me.

The good prof wasn't happy that I was teachiong "Archaeic" electronics to his student. There wasn't any new vacuum tubes being manufactured, etc. ad nauseum. I invited the professor on a trip to the PBS transmitter site on a particularly hot day (the transmitter is 6500' up a mountain and at least 20-degrees cooler than the valley) and he accepted. When we got to the site where my old first phone and my little piece of sheepskin with the letters BSEE caligraphed upon it sat framed upon the desk (I pulled the diploma out just for the occasion) I proceeded to show the PHD a brand new model Inductive Output Tube being manufactured by Marconi and had him eat a substantial amount of humble pie. It turns out the professor (nearly 25-years my younger) hadn't learned much about Vacuum tubes when he was in school and was under the mistaken opinion that they weren't used anylonger except by Ham Radio Operators (I knew I should have had my HAM license hanging next to the diploma).

Bottom line, there are some of us who do know how to solder, trouble shoot and design the equipment, in fact, my job in Broadcast Engineering has me doing more of the former than the latter, but I find the broad range of my work to be stimulating both intellectually and physically.

Personally, I believe that anyone who teaches Engineering ought to have a current PE stamp in the state in which they teach. Too often engineering professors do get too far into the theoretical and forget the practical. A little solid grounding in practical construction techniques would go far for some of our up-and-coming engineering professionals.

As far as Engineers not being able to solder, I happen to know one professional engineer (MSEE, PHD in Astrophysics) who designs and builds his micro-milimeter radio astronomy amplifiers, converters and detectors. Those who both plan and do are out there, so don't paint engineers with too broad a brush. Some of us can and do solder quite well (but I prefer exothermic welding, lots flashier http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

73 DE KAØGKT/7

--Steve

AE6IP

11-19-2006, 04:22 PM

Some stories from the other viewpoint.

I guess it all depends on where you went to school. I took my first electronics class from a physics prof who had done nothing but teach for the previous 25 years.

Among his nastier experiments in lab was the one in which you were given an inductor of unknown inductance and a box full of capacitors and required to construct a circuit of certain properties.

The nasty bit: the box didn't contain the necessary capacitor. You had to be smart enough to figure that out and brave enough to ask him.

If you didn't ask the right question, you got a vague answer, by the way.

Four years later, as a senior, I took process instrumentation from the man. We used ancient op amps where the thermal drift could be measured in volts / minute and were required to develop circuits with reproducable behavior.

Impressively practical, no?

And in twenty five ensuing years, I've never been in a situation where someone sneakily withheld the necessary parts and I've never had to use equipment with specs as bad as those op amps.

Pity that the man didn't teach any "practical" lessons that were remotely relevant to modern electronics; like how to deal with the ESD problem that's currently crashing dev boards.

ka0gkt

11-19-2006, 11:53 PM

I have often wondered if double-E students shouldn't be required to take an ancient electronics class where you roll your own capacitors (literally) out of tin-foil and waxed paper or tinfoil and window glass and wind coils by hand, I'm sure there is little in the real world which these students need these skills, but it would drive home the idea of how stray capacitance and inductance creep into circuits, besides, I think that it would be tremendously fun to teach such a course...not that I have time for such tomfoolery, mind you.

73 DE KAØGKT/7

--Steve

KI4PEQ

11-20-2006, 12:58 AM

Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Nov. 17 2006,23:10)]As far as relevance of skills, a fixation on "Better Be Right Or Your Great Big Venture Goes West" in an era of surface mount resistors speaks volumes.
A nice memory aid, that.

A lot cleaner than the one my electronics instructor taught us for the color code:

"Bad Boys R(have forced non-consentual sex with) Our Young Girls, But Violet Gives Willingly!"

ab8ro

11-20-2006, 01:45 AM

Quote[/b] (KI4PEQ @ Nov. 18 2006,18:58)]Quote[/b] (AE6IP @ Nov. 17 2006,23:10)]As far as relevance of skills, a fixation on "Better Be Right Or Your Great Big Venture Goes West" in an era of surface mount resistors speaks volumes.
A nice memory aid, that.

A lot cleaner than the one my electronics instructor taught us for the color code:

"Bad Boys R(have forced non-consentual sex with) Our Young Girls, But Violet Gives Willingly!"
Haha, I learned that one when I was about 9. My mom was mad at one of my dad's friends for teachingit to me. He also taught me "Budweiser Beer Rots Our Young Guts But Vodka Goes Well."

I can never remember the tamer ones.

KA3CTQ

11-20-2006, 07:10 PM

Quote[/b] (N1LAF @ Nov. 18 2006,22:40)]#Soldering is not considered an engineering task, it was not taught soldering techniques at UConn. #

I know about capacitor blow-ups, happened to me... why? #Because the technician didn't follow the instructions and installed it backwards. #.

More so, does knowing how to solder make you a better engineer, and the answer is no, it doesn't. #More capable as a person, but not a better engineer.
Even the Mech Eng at Penn State are taught to solder.

Have seen where a EE told the tech to put on the cap one way despite the Tech's argument. It blew up and the EE tried to blame the Tech.

In many cases, knowing solering may not help you as an EE, but in many cases it does.

As a electrical tech, machinist (which paid for collage to become and Engineer), and as a ME, I have met a lot of Engineers who don't know the small parts of building something. This includes EEs who couldn't solder and MEs who didn't even know "Lefty Loosy, Righty Tighty" for turning a bolt.

Still, these people still find a spot to fit and do great work.

ky5u

11-20-2006, 07:43 PM

I remember "CAND" for the factors determining the capacitance of a capacitor. It is the dialectric
(C )onstant, the
(A)rea of the plates, the
(N)umber of plates and the
(D)istance between the plates.

There were others too...

N5PVL

11-20-2006, 08:45 PM

Everybody knows how it goes...

The housepainter's house has dead paint peeling off of it, the mechanic drives a smoking old wreck, the psychologist is a nut case and the electrical engineer can't solder.

kl7aj

11-20-2006, 08:56 PM

I'm often asked the reason why
My actions are so strange,
I always give the same reply:
There's Solder in my veins!

When I was nothing but a tot
And round the shack I'd totter
I got a hold of fifteen pounds
Of freshly minted solder

And just as lads are wont to do
When freed of parents' reins
I ate the stuff right off the spool
There's solder in my veins

Some people get their biggest thrill
From driving semi trucks,
But nothing beats the smell so sweet
As smold'ring rosin flux

It's not that I'm incompetent
Or cannot hold a job
God knows I've had some offers that
Would make your eyeballs throb,

And yet I've turned them all away
With similar refrains,
I'd rather do what I do best,
There's Solder in my Veins!

(copyright 1983, Eric P. Nichols, KL7AJ)

ka5s

11-21-2006, 01:46 AM

What he wants is likely what most folks call a "hands-on" engineer. Nothing wrong with that. Probably, what he wants is someone who is not afraid to try something even when he doesn't really know what to do; "Don't just sit there! DO something."

"Dad" said my son, "why do you want me to go to college? You didn't."
"Because four years of college is quicker and cheaper than forty years of experience."

Cortland
KA5S

N1LAF

11-21-2006, 03:49 AM

'CTQ, I hear you, but we have processes and written instructions, and I know mistakes will be made. They are few and far between, and i haven't seen a pattern where I work.

But, talking with the technicians, that is a complaint that they feel engineers don't listen to them, and they feel talk down to. Being that I was a technician myself, my relationship with technicians are different, that I include their comments and suggestions into my projects, and that engineers and technicians work together as a team towards the goal of quality projects. When I train engineers, one of my rules is 'Honor thy technician". Their job is just as important as mine, I cannot succeed without them, and they need our support. It is a mutual dependency, and thats the way it should be.

Soldering not taught at UConn. Really not considered engineering. When we prototype circuits, it was done on protot boards and push wires. "In many cases, knowing solering may not help you as an EE,..." true statement. Only in a few cases it does, because, if where I work is any indication, most engineers (electrical) do not design circuits. I am sure other engineers (electrical) will chime in on this. My company employs over 9000 people, about half or so are engineers. Only a handful actually design circuits. This may not apply to small companies. Electrical Engineering is a large collective of many sub-divisions. Power, systems, communications, biomedical, circuits and instrumentation, control systems, rf, for starters. I throw this in for those who are interested.

Hey, maybe those who don't know lefty loosey, righty tighty have been around those old propane connections, maybe.

N9SX

11-22-2006, 04:32 PM

I agree that some soldering skill is a good thing for anyone, not just engineers.

However, in all but the smallest companies, engineers should not be doing any soldering for 3 very good reasons:

1) There are usually people who can do it better and faster than they can,
2) It is an extremely poor use of their time, and
3) Part of their job is being able to direct people to get things done without doing it themselves. A high functioning engineer will leverage all the resources at hand to maximize their own productivity and that of the department/group

In a business environment, my experience has been that soldering prototypes by hand is becoming less and less frequent anyway. The trend is to build them by machine as it is faster, cheaper, more consistent, and it gives a head start to tuning the production processes. Quite often handwork is not even a viable option. If you have pads underneath the components which need pre-heating and x-ray inspection you may as well forget it.

That said, most SMT work is not really that difficult if you have the proper tools. The 0805 chips and SOIC parts can usually be done with a fine tip iron and some tweezers. The 0603 parts are a stretch for my 40+ eyes, but I can do it. Smaller than that and you need a microscope.

As for the resistor color code, I almost wouldn't bother to learn it at this point. It has been years since I used it. With SMT many of the parts are not marked or they cost more with markings and the smallest parts don't even have room for any markings.

Eric
N9SX

ky5u

11-22-2006, 06:41 PM

I think what we want are engineers with common sense. In lieu of that, a little hands on experience is the next best thing. When I see an engineer headed for a train wreck, I get them one on one and tell them. If they are merely convinced they are right, I let the train run over them then have a one on one review. Most learn from that.

Once in awhile I get an engineer with an attitude. For them the train running over them is the least of their problem.

AG3Y

11-22-2006, 09:00 PM

Charlie, I guess I was very fortunate. I never worked with an Engineer with an attitude. The guys I worked at, especially my last job were very interested in my input, and actually, a great deal of my time was spent preparing reports and data of the results of my tests on the sub-assemblies etc. that I built up.

I suspect that any Engineer that has a big enough attitude problem will find the door swinging in both directions. It will be even easier for him to leave the company than it was for him to arrive!

73, Jim

N1LAF

11-23-2006, 09:53 PM

Eric, right on. Sounds like you are talking from experience. Let me amplify on one of your three points.. where I work, if I solder, not only is it a grevious action, but our technicians would take offense, and I will not offend our technicians. I do direct people and projects, not only are technical skills important, but people skills become more important.

The process of circuit design has so much improved, I will use the full design board for prototyping, expecting only one more spin to iron out any design issues. Being SMT designs, some prototypes are hand-placed, some are machine assembled. For non-ESD sensitive devices, we have been using sandwich ziplock baggies for loose components with labels inside the bag -- because the components are too small for markings. Also, most SMT components are on tape, easier to handle and manage.

N5PVL

11-23-2006, 10:55 PM

AG4YO says:
Quote[/b] ]
Once in awhile I get an engineer with an attitude. For them the train running over them is the least of their problem.

Well, if the engineer lets himself get run over by his own train, then you can't call him much of an engineer! Talk about a newbie mistake! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

w5alt

11-24-2006, 01:04 AM

When I got my first job as a brand shiny new engineer (not EE), I couldn't figure out why the field hands treated me worse than dog doo-doo. I handn't even had a chance to do anything stupid yet! After few weeks I found out that the engineer before me was a real a$$hole and they just figured I was the same way.

My next trip to the field I took an old hard hat I used as a field hand, instead of my shiny newly issued one and was riding around the swamps with the field supervisor. We pulled up to a platform and were looking around - I had no idea what I was looking at, I was still wet behind the ears, remember.

First thing I know the gang pusher yells, "Son, don't just stand there. Earn your pay and grab that 36 and tighten that joint." So, I grabbed the wrench and went to work screwing the pipe together with the rest of the work crew.

A few minutes later the field supervisor walks over and gets this red look on his face and starts chewing out the gang pusher. "You can't treat our engineers that way you #$%^&." He pretty much ripped him a new butthole.

I simply walked over and said, "Don't worry about it. I've done harder work than that in my life and if it helps get the job done, then that's what we're all here for anyway."

After that I had no problems. They gave me my own jo-boat to run around the field in, showed me all the great fishing spots, invited me to all the crawfish boils and made excuses for me why I had to go to the field that day. They called me about every little thing that happened and I called tehm to ask advice on how to work on wells. They taught me more than I could have ever learned otherwise and I helped with the paperwork and engineering to make their life easier, too. That field doubled in productivity in the next year and it was a sad day when they transferred me to work on something else. For years I kept in touch with the whole crew and they used to call me about problems even after it wasn't my responsibility any more.

There are good engineers and there are bad engineers, as well as technicians and field hands. The best figure out how to work together and accomplish far more working together and respecting each other than they ever could treating each other like a$$holes!

73,
Walt, W5ALT