View Full Version : Why were novices permitted in the23cm band?
Why were novices allowed to use 1270-1295 MHz?
Not saying they shouldn't be, but I'm curious as to why this particular band and segment was chosen.
I notice they are allowed all privileges there. Was there some service that used that band that they were trying to encourage novices to use?
I did some research and the only thing I can come up with is ATV. Anyone have any other explanation?
K0RGR
10-02-2006, 06:37 PM
One of the big objections to the Novice license was that Novices could not "talk" on the radio. Earlier, Novices had enjoyed 2 meter phone priveleges, but those were taken away due to too many cases where people were not able to pass the 13 WPM General test, as a result of spending too much time on 2 meters, supposedly.
When "Novice Enhancement" came along to increase interest in the Novice license, they were originally granted voice priveleges on 220 Mhz. and 23 CM.. Later, 10 meter phone was added.
It was hoped that putting the Novices on these two under-utilized bands would lead to much greater activity on both. Unfortunately, it didn't happen. Novices couldn't operate repeaters, so they had to rely on others to provide them. 220 was failry popular in some places, but equipment for both of these bands was prohibitive for most Novices.
Most Novices seeking VHF priveleges took the Tech (same as the General back then) written exam and became Tech + operators.
That made a lot of sense, thanks.
I had thought that there was some specialized mode or popular activity on 23cm that they wanted to encourage novices in.
I guess when NCT came along, novice pretty much died, because NCT basically gave some hams all they needed/wanted out of ham radio with a minimum of learning.
AB3EO
10-02-2006, 08:05 PM
No, novice died because it is no longer being offered.
WA2ZDY
10-02-2006, 08:29 PM
There was a rush of commercially made 23 cm FM rigs when Novice enhancement came around in 1987. I specifically remember one Kenwood mobile rig.
The problem on 23cm FM is five watts isn't a whole lot. Cell phone systems have cells every mile or two for a reason. The infrastructure to support Novices and the 5w restriction would have been cost prohibitive so it fizzled.
Quote[/b] (KB3FGJ @ Oct. 02 2006,15:05)]No, novice died because it is no longer being offered.
From what I hear, novice started to die long before the FCC ceased offering it.
K7JEM
10-02-2006, 09:09 PM
Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Oct. 02 2006,13:45)]Quote[/b] (KB3FGJ @ Oct. 02 2006,15:05)]No, novice died because it is no longer being offered.
From what I hear, novice started to die long before the FCC ceased offering it.
Quite a while before. The novice had become something of an anachronism, allowing only CW on the lower bands, and power limited phone (and other modes) on 220 and 1296. Not many hams were entering this way.
Joe
Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Oct. 02 2006,16:09)]Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Oct. 02 2006,13:45)]Quote[/b] (KB3FGJ @ Oct. 02 2006,15:05)]No, novice died because it is no longer being offered.
From what I hear, novice started to die long before the FCC ceased offering it.
Quite a while before. The novice had become something of an anachronism, allowing only CW on the lower bands, and power limited phone (and other modes) on 220 and 1296. Not many hams were entering this way.
Joe
Well, naturally, because we are inclined to take the path of least resistance.
WB2WIK
10-02-2006, 09:16 PM
Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Oct. 02 2006,14:09)]Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Oct. 02 2006,13:45)]Quote[/b] (KB3FGJ @ Oct. 02 2006,15:05)]No, novice died because it is no longer being offered.
From what I hear, novice started to die long before the FCC ceased offering it.
Quite a while before. The novice had become something of an anachronism, allowing only CW on the lower bands, and power limited phone (and other modes) on 220 and 1296. Not many hams were entering this way.
Joe
Biggest problem, and one that cannot be corrected retroactively, is that the Novice was just one license class offered but anybody could take the exams for any class license and go from zero to Extra (or whatever) in one day.
If the Novice had been the only means of entry into amateur radio, and everyone had to be a Novice for, say, 6 months prior to sitting for any other exam; and provide evidence of having made contacts on the air using only CW and no other mode: Now, that would have really worked.
I can almost guarantee that we would not see questions here on QRZ.com asking, "How do I make a dipole and how long should it be?" because anyone qualified to be a ham at any level would know the answer.
As soon as the NCT became "easier" than the Novice, that killed off the Novice pretty quickly. Pity, because the old process worked better.
w8cbc
10-02-2006, 10:33 PM
The answer to that of course is that "How do I make a dipole and how long should it be?" should be part of the General exam. Not only that, it should be one of five or so questions that must be answered correctly (say, to within 10% on calculations) for a pass.
Others that should be instant-fail questions if you get them wrong...
How to tune up so's you don't interfere with others?
What is overmodulation and how do you correct it?
Power limits.
How to determine if a frequency is in use before calling.
MM3XXW
10-02-2006, 11:35 PM
Jeez http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
K7JEM
10-03-2006, 01:57 AM
Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ Oct. 02 2006,14:16)]Quote[/b] (K7JEM @ Oct. 02 2006,14:09)]Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Oct. 02 2006,13:45)]Quote[/b] (KB3FGJ @ Oct. 02 2006,15:05)]No, novice died because it is no longer being offered.
From what I hear, novice started to die long before the FCC ceased offering it.
Quite a while before. The novice had become something of an anachronism, allowing only CW on the lower bands, and power limited phone (and other modes) on 220 and 1296. Not many hams were entering this way.
Joe
Biggest problem, and one that cannot be corrected retroactively, is that the Novice was just one license class offered but anybody could take the exams for any class license and go from zero to Extra (or whatever) in one day.
If the Novice had been the only means of entry into amateur radio, and everyone had to be a Novice for, say, 6 months prior to sitting for any other exam; and provide evidence of having made contacts on the air using only CW and no other mode: Now, that would have really worked.
I can almost guarantee that we would not see questions here on QRZ.com asking, "How do I make a dipole and how long should it be?" because anyone qualified to be a ham at any level would know the answer.
As soon as the NCT became "easier" than the Novice, that killed off the Novice pretty quickly. Pity, because the old process worked better.
Well, there's an advanced licensee on another thread asking about secondary locations, and what he needs to be able to do to operate at a second home.
To me, thats just as bad as asking how to make a dipole. Don't people ever read the rules anymore?
The NCT is only easier than the novice, because you have no code test. The written is certainly harder. Again, when people somehow think that "code makes the ham" there is a misconception that the novice is somehow higher than a tech.
Joe
K7JBQ
10-03-2006, 02:18 AM
Quote[/b] (w8cbc @ Oct. 02 2006,15:33)]The answer to that of course is that "How do I make a dipole and how long should it be?" should be part of the General exam. #Not only that, it should be one of five or so questions that must be answered correctly (say, to within 10% on calculations) for a pass.
Others that should be instant-fail questions if you get them wrong...
How to tune up so's you don't interfere with others?
What is overmodulation and how do you correct it?
Power limits.
How to determine if a frequency is in use before calling.
There used to be questions on all four of these topics. Not all for the same license class, but I distinctly remember all four.
73,
Bill
Quote[/b] (w8cbc @ Oct. 02 2006,17:33)]The answer to that of course is that "How do I make a dipole and how long should it be?" should be part of the General exam. Not only that, it should be one of five or so questions that must be answered correctly (say, to within 10% on calculations) for a pass.
Others that should be instant-fail questions if you get them wrong...
How to tune up so's you don't interfere with others?
What is overmodulation and how do you correct it?
Power limits.
How to determine if a frequency is in use before calling.
So wait a minute, there aren't any questions on those sorts of things now except for the extra exam?
What do they test in the general and NCT exams now anyway?
w5alt
10-03-2006, 02:55 AM
Quote[/b] (w8cbc @ Oct. 02 2006,18:33)]The answer to that of course is that "How do I make a dipole and how long should it be?" should be part of the General exam.
What's a dipole? I learned about dipole-moments in physics. Are they the same except for some moments?
Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Oct. 01 2006,20:52)]So wait a minute, there aren't any questions on those sorts of things now except for the extra exam?
What do they test in the general and NCT exams now anyway?
1) Do you own a Motorola iDEN phone?
2) Do you have a car charger for it?
3) Can you say, "Way U At?"?
4) If a 'fill it in and mail it in' license card was enclosed with your new amateur rig from the manufacturer, would you promise to fill it out and mail it in to get your free extra class license? (Kinda like the CB license plan from circa 1974)
5) Can you answer yes to the previous four question. If so you automatically pass.
ka5piu
10-03-2006, 04:24 AM
Hello.
Why not ask a novice?
I use 220 MHz and 1.2 GHz.
The original idea was to have a "communicator" class of license, GMRS but you could hack.
Even sears and roebuck was selling a 220 rig.
The trouble was that pesky little code requirement.
Later, the ITU got together and said that anything below 30 MHz and you needed to know code.
Now not even that is the case.
Now, I am not saying a ham needs to be able to build a modern SMD talkie, but some hams have trouble selecting the voltage drop resistor for an LED, what it with that?
I play with 10 meters as well as 11 meters.
This is done with a loading coil for 11 meters and direct for 10 meters, RF sense to remove the radio not transmitting.
RF amp to isolate the 2 radios on RX.
You would be in shock as to the number of hams who say why not run the ham rig on CB or the others who say that this is not legal.
None of who could built this very simple device.
WA9SVD
10-03-2006, 01:30 PM
Quote:
AB2MH
Why were novices allowed to use 1270-1295 MHz?
Not saying they shouldn't be, but I'm curious as to why this particular band and segment was chosen.
I notice they are allowed all privileges there. Was there some service that used that band that they were trying to encourage novices to use?
=====================================
That's not quite correct. Novices currently have access to the entire 222-225 MHz band, but are limited to 25 Watts PEP. (Before we lost 220-222 MHz, I believe those frequencies were off limits to Novices,)
On 23 cm, Novices may only operate 1270-1295 MHz, with a power limit of 5 Watts.
That's not exactly "all privileges," but all modes are available to Novices as well as other licensees.
IMHO, it was to give Novices an opportunity to use modes other than CW (notable voice) AND to populate sparesely populated bands, to increase the activity there. The power limits were in place (just as the old rock-bound, 75 Watt CW limit on the HF bands) to reduce the chance of the "Novice newbies" causing interference with other operators. And a 5 Watt limit of 23 cm was considered to be a biologically safe power level for those unfamiliar with microwaves. It also encouraged experimentation on the 23 cm band; there was precious little Amateur gear available; most equipment had to be modified, usually mil surplus, and gave the Novice some "hands-on" experience.
WA2ZDY
10-03-2006, 02:00 PM
Quote[/b] (K7JBQ @ Oct. 02 2006,22:18)]Quote[/b] (w8cbc @ Oct. 02 2006,15:33)]The answer to that of course is that "How do I make a dipole and how long should it be?" should be part of the General exam. #Not only that, it should be one of five or so questions that must be answered correctly (say, to within 10% on calculations) for a pass.
Others that should be instant-fail questions if you get them wrong...
How to tune up so's you don't interfere with others?
What is overmodulation and how do you correct it?
Power limits.
How to determine if a frequency is in use before calling.
There used to be questions on all four of these topics. Not all for the same license class, but I distinctly remember all four.
73,
Bill
The dipole question was absolutely on my Novice exam taken around Thanksgiving 1974.
Modulation was covered on the General I took in November 1975 and the others were on one or the other. #None of them was on the Extra exam in November 1977; they'd have been too basic at that time.
And what did a newly minted Novice get for passing that exam? 50 KHz of 75 watt CW on 80m, another 50 KHz on 40m and 100 KHz on 15m. And I don't know about others, but the Novices I knew couldn't have made contacts on 15m - our receivers couldn't have heard the guy next door that high. And with the highly stable (cough cough) transmitters we had, the guy next door wouldn't have found us either.
w8cbc
10-03-2006, 04:34 PM
Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Oct. 02 2006,19:52)]So wait a minute, there aren't any questions on those sorts of things now except for the extra exam?
What do they test in the general and NCT exams now anyway?
My point is that it should be an instant-fail if you get any one of them wrong. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
WB2WIK
10-03-2006, 05:25 PM
Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Oct. 02 2006,19:55)]Quote[/b] (w8cbc @ Oct. 02 2006,18:33)]The answer to that of course is that "How do I make a dipole and how long should it be?" should be part of the General exam.
What's a dipole? I learned about dipole-moments in physics. Are they the same except for some moments?
No.
A dipole moment is an point in time when you think you're a dipole.
Makes some people downright dipolar. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
K7JBQ
10-03-2006, 05:43 PM
This is, with any luck at all, totally unrelated to "polar moment of intertia," unless your Yagi spins like a Porsche 911 on a wet, decreasing radius turn.
73,
Bill
K0RGR
10-03-2006, 07:45 PM
I did a little digging into the past, and the official reason for dropping the Novice license was that ARRL found that 3/4 of Novices were inactive. Combined with very low numbers of new Novices, the conclusion was that the license wasn't working.
ARRL proposed an "intermediate" license at the time, which would have replaced the Novice and Tech + with a license with priveleges very similar to what ARRL has proposed now for their new "Novice" license.
W0JBC
10-03-2006, 10:35 PM
WIK I agree withyou on this one..... The NOVICE was intended to allow a NEWBIE to get on HF with cw .... Then learn ..... Basic questions and to not get into trouble.....
A REAL radio guy would jump through those hoops .... I did .... I don't really regret it NOW ..... ... As you remember, if you didn't get it within a year ta...ta... Retest ....
A novice was NOT a lifetime entry level ... I agree that a NCT test is a LITTLE more difficult than the novice .... Unfortunately, the NCT can now be a license you can hold forever ... Of course , the 5 WPM jugernaut is now a problem ... Just wait 'til it's removed ... The ARRL dropped the ball ... Now, the newbies are in the mode of waiting the FCC out ... Just my opinion ... You usually get what you work for .. and appreciate it ... Freebies never give anyone an incentive to better themselves ...
That's it in a nutshell..
JB WØJBC
WA9SVD
10-03-2006, 10:41 PM
That one's easy... The easiest way to make a dipole is to head on down to HRO or AES and plunk down your credit card!
Oh, you mean it's actually LEGAL to make your own antenna from bits and pieces? Glorioski, Batman! How do you do that?
WB2WIK
10-03-2006, 10:51 PM
Quote[/b] (W0JBC @ Oct. 03 2006,15:35)]WIK I agree withyou on this one..... The NOVICE was intended to allow a NEWBIE to get on HF with cw .... Then learn ..... Basic questions and to not get into trouble.....
A REAL radio guy would jump through those hoops .... I did .... I don't really regret it NOW ..... ... As you remember, if you didn't get it within a year ta...ta... Retest ....
Even a retest wouldn't get you another Novice. It was one year term, non-renewable when I had mine in the sixties.
You could retest all you wanted, but you couldn't get a second Novice license. You could sit for a higher class license, of course.
Maybe it's just me, but I swear that in the mid-sixties, I knew dozens -- maybe hundreds -- of Novices, and not a single one would have to ask how to make a dipole, or where the band edges were, or what value resistor they needed to make a 2.2V LED work from a 12V power supply.
It was indeed a very simple test, though. I passed it at age 13 and felt like an old man compared to some. Met a number of 8 and 9 year-old Novices on the air. Good CW ops, most of the younger ones were speed limited only because they couldn't write fast enough. Those are the ones I'd try to convince it's a waste of time writing anything down, code is a conversational skill not a writing test.
WB2WIK/6