Tacit Admission of Knowing Nothing

[KL7FZ]

It was with some, no make that a lot, of sadness, that I read a Letter to the Editor, in the September issue of CQ magazine entitled "Dumbing Down or Wising Up?" #In it, the author plainly states #"Also, with having all the questions and answers in the question pool in the back of the book, I feel like I was able to slide right into a license without really having to study or know anything except how to memorize answers". While she did state after this "That's good and bad", I don't think she understands how bad this is, and that it is NOT good at all.
I heard on a local net 2 meter net just a short while ago, someone explaining to another amateur what frequency he was on. That amateur was on the air operating and checking into a net without knowing what frequency, repeater, tone, offset they were using. Obviously someone else had programmed their radio for them.
I used to participate in a lot of the nets and chats but recently it seems that those operators now on the air have nothing to talk about but the weather and trivia. What is it with this dumb trivia nets anyway? Don't these people have anything in their brains except trivia and the weather? What happened to the interesting QSOs where people discussed technical topics or anything that had some learning or real educational merit? Whether it was learning about the other person and their life, job, family, etc or radio/electronics, or other scientific topics. Where did they all go? What is the seemingly intense desire of modern day amateurs to know what the weather is at the other station's QTH, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE WITHIN SIGHT OF EACH OTHER??
#These days I may turn on the radio in the morning or evening to check the activity, but when confronted with these BORING people, I have to turn the rig off again and turn up the music.
#It may just turn out that if you knew nothing to get your license, that you may know NOTHING INTERESTING OR STIMULATING TO SAY after you get it!!!
#Darn shame!
#KL7FZ

[KI4NGN]

I'm sorry that people don't get their ticket with the understanding that their QSOs have to be something that YOU find interesting or stimulating.

It may also turn out that people, whether or not they knew anything to get their license, have chatted with each other so often that they know each other, or already knew each other. You know, they're friends, and have discussions that interest them?

How could these people have not been thinking of you when they got their ticket?!?!

Of course you could change frequencies.

Mike, Raleigh, NC

[KC9GUZ]

And here we go with yet another negative post about how horrible ham radio has gotten. Can anyone post a post thats at least somewhat positive about the hobby?
Ya know, ive never met a more negative bunch of sad sacks than some of the hams on here. I enjoy the hobby but man, some guys are just miserable about everything!

[kb9rqz]

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Sep. 28 2006,03:17)]I'm sorry that people don't get their ticket with the understanding that their QSOs have to be something that YOU find interesting or stimulating.

It may also turn out that people, whether or not they knew anything to get their license, have chatted with each other so often that they know each other, or already knew each other. You know, they're friends, and have discussions that interest them?

How could these people have not been thinking of you when they got their ticket?!?!

Of course you could change frequencies.

Mike, Raleigh, NC
no he can't then he have nothing to listen to or bitch about

[WA5VQM]

Quote[/b] (KC9GUZ @ Sep. 29 2006,05:52)]And here we go with yet another negative post about how horrible ham radio has gotten. Can anyone post a post thats at least somewhat positive about the hobby?
Ya know, ive never met a more negative bunch of sad sacks than some of the hams on here. I enjoy the hobby but man, some guys are just miserable about everything!
Want some good news?

Well, first of all things aren't as bad as all that. Ham radio isn't just 2 meters, or 75. There are more bad apples than there used to be but it's still a majority that are good hams. Good QSOs are out there to be found.

Chasing DX is still fun.

Playing with antennas and gear is still fun.

Building stuff is still fun.

Rag chewing is still fun.

SSB, PSK, SSTV, CW, RTTY, AM, and so on are still fun.

Ham radio is what you make of it.

I'll often "read the mail" on QSOs while in the shack doing other things. Many QSOs are interesting. One example is a certain California station that usually booms in here about 0000-0100Z on 20 that is always a fascinating conversationalist, listens as well as he talks, and knows his stuff. He's usually talking to someone for the first time. Also happens to have a great radio voice. He's just one. There are thousands of others. As long as they're still hams like that out there we'll be fine.

73, Mark

Well do something to fix it.

When was the last time you put together or helped teach a license class?

When was the last time you took a new ham under your wing?

I am going to teach my 2nd license class in November, and then I and others involved will be following up with each new ham helping them learn even more as they going, showing them new things, and helpng them along and on the right path. I really want to find a simple 6m CW kit/plans so they can build a radio that will teach them and get them off the repeaters right off, but no luck finding one yet.

So how many that are complaining are also helping fix things?

[kj3n]

Quote[/b] (KC9GUZ @ Sep. 29 2006,08:52)]And here we go with yet another negative post about how horrible ham radio has gotten. Can anyone post a post thats at least somewhat positive about the hobby?
Sure can. # http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

As a newly minted Extra (4/06), I'm looking forward to my first season in the 75m DX window. If the past week is any indication, my loop antenna and my elevated wire vertical should produce some wonderful opportunities as we get closer to Winter.

So far, I've managed 16 DXCC entities in 8 days, including two ZS6 stations in 2 days. Then there was the V5/DJ8VC in Namibia @ 4:13z on 9/28/2006. My goal is to do DXCC on 75m in 365 days, starting on 9/21/2006.

Gonna be a great time for me! #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[WB2WIK]

Quote[/b] (KC9GUZ @ Sep. 29 2006,05:52)]And here we go with yet another negative post about how horrible ham radio has gotten. Can anyone post a post thats at least somewhat positive about the hobby?
Absolutely!

On a positive note, ham radio is degrading at a faster rate than ever before! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[WB2WIK]

Quote[/b] (KL7FZ @ Sep. 29 2006,00:44)]What is the seemingly intense desire of modern day amateurs to know what the weather is at the other station's QTH, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE WITHIN SIGHT OF EACH OTHER??
Damn.

Hi, I'm Steve in Los Angeles and the weather here is sunny and 92 degrees. How's it over there west of Topanga Canyon Boulevard?

I collect this information, dutifully log it and then throw it all out at the end of each month. It's part of the hobby! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[w8znx]

oh please
more sky is falling bs

there is a world out there
other than ot ops
ragchewing abt the WX

if you do not like what you hear
crank the big knob

do something new
that you havent tried before
or try something you havent done in years

try EME or other VHF UHF weak sig mode
build a hf qrp station or a glow bug transmitter
rebuild a old tube receiver
build a psk 31 lash up
there is a world of things to do

other than listening
to new age old timer ops gas bag
on the local machine

going all the way back to the age of spark
there have been poor ops
and
there have been intolerant old timers
that can not stand anybody
excpt ops
they have been rag chewing with
for over 25 years

8ZZ QST cover
about the CQ ing fool
that ties up the band for hours calling cq
as
another op is wating for a clear band to move
the traffic that is waiting on his hook

letter to ed in 30's QST
from a old time op

ran something like this

kid ops are wrecking amateur radio
and that any fool kid
can get a ham license by just
reading The Handbook

it's just terrible that real hams
must put up with all the qrm
caused by these wet nose kids
running their junk transmitters

1938 Radio Magzine
letter to ed
how new kid ops
are making the ham bands a joke


50's QST and CQ magazine
letters to ed
how new Novice class ops are going
to haul ham radio to hell in a handbasket
the test is just too easy

over and over agn
the sky is falling, the sky is falling


mac

[N2RJ]

I don't mind the wx reports but could do without the endless talk about medical problems.

[ai4ep]

I have discovered that on C W folks do not talk about their medical problems...just on ssb.

Is there a reason why they do not discuss the matter on cw ? Mebbe wiser form of communication ? :rock:

[K1OU]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Sep. 29 2006,11:13)]I have discovered that on C W folks do not talk about their medical problems...just on ssb.

#Is there a reason why they do not discuss the matter on cw ? # Mebbe wiser form of communication ? # # # #:rock:
Because the illnesses usually take too long to spell.

[WA5VQM]

Mac's right. I just got some post-war QSTs and there's a lot of OTs griping about the newcomers, VFOs, "appliance operators using store-bought transmitters", one guy gripes why does he have to learn CW since all he wants to do is chat with his buddies. 1946. Sixty years. The equipment may have changed, but hams are still hams.

Steve: as I recall Simi was always a few degrees cooler than the Valley... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ac3p]

Quote[/b] ]What is the seemingly intense desire of modern day amateurs to know what the weather is at the other station's QTH, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE WITHIN SIGHT OF EACH OTHER??


Well If there is a tornado between me and the other guy and it's headed my way, I want to know about that. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[WA2ZDY]

Quote[/b] (ac3p @ Sep. 29 2006,14:27)]What is the seemingly intense desire of modern day amateurs to know what the weather is at the other station's QTH, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE WITHIN SIGHT OF EACH OTHER??
It's 87 degrees Farenheit right now, the humidity is a very dry 42% and there is not a cloud in the sky. There were a few beautiful clouds last night at sunset but they sure didn't have any rain for us.

Suburban Tampa sure is a beautiful place!

[wd0ct]

Quote[/b] (KL7FZ @ Sep. 29 2006,00:44)]It was with some, no make that a lot, of sadness, that I read a Letter to the Editor, in the September issue of CQ magazine entitled "Dumbing Down or Wising Up?" In it, the author plainly states "Also, with having all the questions and answers in the question pool in the back of the book, I feel like I was able to slide right into a license without really having to study or know anything except how to memorize answers". While she did state after this "That's good and bad", I don't think she understands how bad this is, and that it is NOT good at all.
I heard on a local net 2 meter net just a short while ago, someone explaining to another amateur what frequency he was on. That amateur was on the air operating and checking into a net without knowing what frequency, repeater, tone, offset they were using. Obviously someone else had programmed their radio for them.
I used to participate in a lot of the nets and chats but recently it seems that those operators now on the air have nothing to talk about but the weather and trivia. What is it with this dumb trivia nets anyway? Don't these people have anything in their brains except trivia and the weather? What happened to the interesting QSOs where people discussed technical topics or anything that had some learning or real educational merit? Whether it was learning about the other person and their life, job, family, etc or radio/electronics, or other scientific topics. Where did they all go? What is the seemingly intense desire of modern day amateurs to know what the weather is at the other station's QTH, ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY ARE WITHIN SIGHT OF EACH OTHER??
These days I may turn on the radio in the morning or evening to check the activity, but when confronted with these BORING people, I have to turn the rig off again and turn up the music.
It may just turn out that if you knew nothing to get your license, that you may know NOTHING INTERESTING OR STIMULATING TO SAY after you get it!!!
Darn shame!
KL7FZ
You haven't figured it out yet. Just change a few words to make your post a rant about cb.

These guys will be falling all over them selves agreeing with you.

[KI4ITV]

Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Sep. 29 2006,06:01)]I don't mind the wx reports but could do without the endless talk about medical problems.
Just like CW these are time tested and approved traditions of the amateur radio hobby.
The things you have to do if you want to play.
So far I have passed the code test, taken Skywarn classes (to describe weather properly), and now I'm working on getting the proper medical maladies necessary for a good time on 75m.

That's the way it is...
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[K0RGR]

Well, it's cold enough to freeze the... and I can't tell either of my cold weather jokes on the air. In the fall when Minnesota freezes over, EVERYBODY talks about the weather. It is so much more exciting in a place where it can kill you! I never knew what I was missing in Califonia, where the weather is so boring I wonder why they bother to even report it.

The most interesting QSO I've had in a long time was on EchoLink with a guy in Hawaii who described what it was like sitting on his deck looking at the ocean and sipping a cool beverage - as this went on, we were joined by a Londoner, who described his weather, which sounded worse than mine, though much warmer. All of us sitting around with our HT's doing various other things.

I am much better at ragchewing on PSK31 than other modes. I type fast, and my hands don't get as tired as they do when sending CW with paddles.

[KI4PEQ]

Maybe the reason that CW is somewhat immune from hams talking about their medical problems is that it is so much work to spell things like carcinogenic esophagus, mytocardial infarction and pulmonary embolism.

[WA9SVD]

Old Polish Proverb:

It's better to admit to knowing "nothing," than to open your mouth and prove the point."

(Banacek, [a Czech] would have been proud...)

[n0iu]

Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Sep. 29 2006,06:01)]I don't mind the wx reports...
I don't either until I run across one of those digital mode ops with their weather station hooked up to their computer and they hit the macro that gives the temperature in Farenheit and Celcius, barometric pressure in inches and bars, relative humidity, dew point (also in Farenheit and Celcius), cloud coverage, heat index or wind chill (also in Farenheit and Celcius), wind speed and gusts (in MPH and KPH) and direction.

These are usually also the same people who send the macro with the details of their computer system starting with the operating system, the brand and speed of the processor and whether it is air cooled or water cooled, amount and speed of memory, brand and model and size of the hard drives(s), brand and model of the sound card, brand and model of the speaker system, brand and model of the video card and monitor, brand and model and speed of the DVD burner, brand and model of the NIC, brand and model of the wireless router and some other stuff I have probably left off. I have seen more than one "brag tape" with the radio and antenna given as the last things on the list. For me, this is still a radio hobby that uses computers, not a computer hobby that uses radios.

And then they end this so-called QSO by telling me the date and time they logged the contact despite the fact that my computer also has a clock and calendar and logging program with the time adjusted for UTC. Out of all the other stuff I mentioned, this has got to be my #1 gripe about operators today. It is a macro that is sent for no other reason than it is there. It serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever. I somehow managed to confirm thousands of contacts on other modes without being told when the other op put me in his log!

Scott NØIU

[K7JEM]

Amen! What is up with those people? I go get a coke when they start that computer brag file. Mine:"computer here is 486 POS"

Joe

[w5alt]

Quote[/b] (WB2WIK @ Sep. 29 2006,13:34)]Hi, I'm Steve in Los Angeles and the weather here is sunny and 92 degrees. How's it over there west of Topanga Canyon Boulevard?
Hi, I'm Walt in Maracaibo. Let me get out my recording and play the weather report for you.

"Today (fill in your favorite date) it is sunny and warm. Low was in the mid-70's last night and high in the mid-90's today. It was like that yesterday and will be the same tomorrow. And it's been like that for most of this century and the last. There may be an effect of global warming, but neglecting that, it'll probably be the same the rest of this century, too."

Quote[/b] ]I collect this information, dutifully log it and then throw it all out at the end of each month. It's part of the hobby! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
I've already logged the weather reports here for the next year and a half! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[wb7de]

I hope I am not spoiling the fun by returning to the original topic. I am not so sure that those who are "memorizing" the answers are not learning anything. Besides, you don't know which questions you will get when you arrive at the VE session. If a person can memorize the answers to 500+ questions, they are probably smarter than you think. I like the idea that the questions are available. When I studied for my licenses, I got the ARRL manuals, studied each section and quizzed myself with the questions that related to each section. Then, I tried the online tests to let me know which topics I needed to study more. When I "barely" passed the General exam, I assumed there was stuff I needed to know more about. I went back and studied for that exam after I passed and took online tests until I was satisfied (96%+).

[G8ADD]

When I took my test, back in the dark ages, it was a written exam, you had to write answers with wiring diagrams and even a cross-section of the ionosphere. The reason that this exam was technical is that it was assumed that you would either build your own station or modify surplus equipment, so you had to show that you had the basic knowledge to do this. Few people operate home-brewed rigs now, and the test reflects this, concentrating on the knowledge needed to operate. I speak of the UK tests but I think I can safely assume that the tests in the USA are similar in intent.

By the way, I thought tacit meant silent.

73

Brian G8ADD

[KI4PEQ]

It does.

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Oct. 01 2006,14:44)]When I took my test, back in the dark ages, it was a written exam, you had to write answers with wiring diagrams and even a cross-section of the ionosphere. The reason that this exam was technical is that it was assumed that you would either build your own station or modify surplus equipment, so you had to show that you had the basic knowledge to do this. Few people operate home-brewed rigs now, and the test reflects this, concentrating on the knowledge needed to operate. I speak of the UK tests but I think I can safely assume that the tests in the USA are similar in intent.

By the way, I thought tacit meant silent.

73

Brian G8ADD
You have just described the Citizen's Band service and the Family Radio Service here in the US.

They are services whose primary focus is operating a commercial, type-accepted radio. Neither require any testing whatsoever.

Are you implying that this is where the Amateur Radio Service is headed also?

tim ab0wr

[G8ADD]

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Oct. 03 2006,05:21)]Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Oct. 01 2006,14:44)]When I took my test, back in the dark ages, it was a written exam, you had to write answers with wiring diagrams and even a cross-section of the ionosphere. The reason that this exam was technical is that it was assumed that you would either build your own station or modify surplus equipment, so you had to show that you had the basic knowledge to do this. Few people operate home-brewed rigs now, and the test reflects this, concentrating on the knowledge needed to operate. I speak of the UK tests but I think I can safely assume that the tests in the USA are similar in intent.

By the way, I thought tacit meant silent.

73

Brian G8ADD
You have just described the Citizen's Band service and the Family Radio Service here in the US.

They are services whose primary focus is operating a commercial, type-accepted radio. Neither require any testing whatsoever.

Are you implying that this is where the Amateur Radio Service is headed also?

tim ab0wr
Not really, Tim, though there are those who make that claim!

My first station was home-brewed and conformed to accepted good practise at the time. I would not attempt a transceiver now, unless perhaps from a kit, they have become too complex and I doubt my ability to handle surface mount components, but I still build antennas, ATUs, speech processors and the like, and I have the knowledge to adjust the equipment to get optimum performance without splattering all over the place! This is the knowledge that all hams need, and which I feel the tests cater for. The knowledge to design and build something like the FT897 would be needed by a very small and select band of hams: I would respect them but I cannot join them!

Incidentally, the UK foundation license restricts its holders, the M3+3s, to type approved gear and low power (10 watts), but they are still hams and are upwardly mobile!

73

Brian G8ADD

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Oct. 03 2006,10:06)]Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Oct. 03 2006,05:21)]Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Oct. 01 2006,14:44)]When I took my test, back in the dark ages, it was a written exam, you had to write answers with wiring diagrams and even a cross-section of the ionosphere. The reason that this exam was technical is that it was assumed that you would either build your own station or modify surplus equipment, so you had to show that you had the basic knowledge to do this. Few people operate home-brewed rigs now, and the test reflects this, concentrating on the knowledge needed to operate. I speak of the UK tests but I think I can safely assume that the tests in the USA are similar in intent.

By the way, I thought tacit meant silent.

73

Brian G8ADD
You have just described the Citizen's Band service and the Family Radio Service here in the US.

They are services whose primary focus is operating a commercial, type-accepted radio. Neither require any testing whatsoever.

Are you implying that this is where the Amateur Radio Service is headed also?

tim ab0wr
Not really, Tim, though there are those who make that claim!

My first station was home-brewed and conformed to accepted good practise at the time. I would not attempt a transceiver now, unless perhaps from a kit, they have become too complex and I doubt my ability to handle #surface mount components, but I still build antennas, ATUs, speech processors and the like, and I have the knowledge to adjust the equipment to get optimum performance without splattering all over the place! #This is the knowledge that all hams need, and which I feel the tests cater for. The knowledge to design and build something like the FT897 would be needed by a very small and select band of hams: I would respect them but I cannot join them!

Incidentally, the UK foundation license restricts its holders, the M3+3s, to type approved gear and low power (10 watts), but they are still hams and are upwardly mobile!

73

Brian G8ADD
Since when does one have to be able to build an ft897 in order to build their own station?

You can build a nice single or dual conversion transceiver today with very few, if any, surface mount parts. Surplus crystals allow building very nice, narrow filters with quite usable shape factors.

In fact, it is easier to build a perfectly usable transceiver today than it has ever been in history. More places carry more high quality parts today than have ever been available at any time in history!

What is being exhibited here is a bias -- a bias that if you can't build the most sophistcated piece of electronics possible to modern manufacturing today then it isn't worthwhile building anything.

Well, the plain, stark truth is that very, very few hams could duplicate the Collins KWM-2 or the Viking Ranger in their home workshops in the 50's and 60's (heck even in the 70's and 80's). That didn't keep people from building simpler stations and learning electronics while doing so.

As you say very, very few hams today could build an Icom 756proIII. Just as in earlier times, that should NOT stop them from building perfectly usable stations and learning all kinds of electronics while doing so.

Encouraging new hams to do this *should* be the single most important thing existing hams and amateur organizations do. It's a matter of raising expectations and inculcating in new hams the drive to meet those expectations.

Yet, more and more, I see the canard thrown out that people can't build an Icom7000 as an excuse for dumbed down test requirements.

It's a self-fullfilling prophecy: hams get dumber as you make the expectations dumber also.

tim ab0wr

[n7rjd]

Quote[/b] (AB2MH @ Sep. 29 2006,05:01)]I don't mind the wx reports but could do without the endless talk about medical problems.
You need to log what medical problems are more prevalent in various weather conditions (trick knees in cold weather and such.) This will help to peak your interest in both facets of modern on-air activities. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[G8ADD]

Quote[/b] (ab0wr @ Oct. 03 2006,12:59)]Since when does one have to be able to build an ft897 in order to build their own station?

You can build a nice single or dual conversion transceiver today with very few, if any, surface mount parts. Surplus crystals allow building very nice, narrow filters with quite usable shape factors.

In fact, it is easier to build a perfectly usable transceiver today than it has ever been in history. More places carry more high quality parts today than have ever been available at any time in history!

What is being exhibited here is a bias -- a bias that if you can't build the most sophistcated piece of electronics possible to modern manufacturing today then it isn't worthwhile building anything.

Well, the plain, stark truth is that very, very few hams could duplicate the Collins KWM-2 or the Viking Ranger in their home workshops in the 50's and 60's (heck even in the 70's and 80's). That didn't keep people from building simpler stations and learning electronics while doing so.

As you say very, very few hams today could build an Icom 756proIII. Just as in earlier times, that should NOT stop them from building perfectly usable stations and learning all kinds of electronics while doing so.

Encouraging new hams to do this *should* be the single most important thing existing hams and amateur organizations do. It's a matter of raising expectations and inculcating in new hams the drive to meet those expectations.

Yet, more and more, I see the canard thrown out that people can't build an Icom7000 as an excuse for dumbed down test requirements.

It's a self-fullfilling prophecy: hams get dumber as you make the expectations dumber also.

tim ab0wr
I agree with much of what you say, Tim, but I think you missed part of my point. For my first station I built a double conversion ham bands only receiver that was electrically and mechanically (thanks to an Eddystone dial and SM drive that I wish they still produced today!) as good as anything I could buy, and a 100 watt Tx for 70 cm which was better than anything commercially available at the time. Today I could not build anything equivalent to that market position, but back then almost anyone who had passed our then single level RAE could. They weren't brighter, the technology was more accessable.

I envy your ability to lay hands on high quality parts, where I am they are getting harder and harder to find. Even at the Rallies (hamfests) the traders tables are getting fewer and the choice poorer. Kits are available still, and are popular (which is great!) but to do it completely independantly takes luck and determination.

Our three tier licensing system provides an incentive to upgrade, as new hams progress up the grades they gain more priviledges including the priviledge of using home built gear. Indeed, demonstrating the ability to construct simple equipment is part of the test. There are signs that making the use of homebrew gear a priviledge to be earned is making it desirable, but it is early days yet.

Whilst I can sympathise with your desire that new hams should be encouraged to homebrew, I don't see it as being as important as you do. When I started up new commercial gear was ruinously expensive, also AM was giving way to SSB, CW was dominant, and very few people operated RTTY. Now commercial gear is cheap, and there is a plethora of things to master that we could not dream of then. Ham radio now can be a lifetime learning experience without ever handling a soldering iron (other, of course, than such chores as putting plugs on leads!)

In a nutshell, I don't think hams are dumber than they used to be, I think reduced knowledge in some directions (following from reduced need to know) is balanced by increased knowledge in other directions, induced by the need to know. Foundation license newbies might be floored by the complexities of tuning up a hybrid rig and have difficulties in applying their newly acquired knowledge to real situations, but they often have knowledge in other directions that I have trouble assimilating, not having grown up with computers!

73

Brian G8ADD

[G3OZN]

Only my opinion (for what it's worth)
After 45 years "on the air" I do believe technical knowledge is less required to get the ticket than back in the 60s
I wouldn't go so far as to say "its been dumbed down" as this is a bland statement, but certainly 2 metres & 70 centimetres in the UK are more like PMR bands, and well repeaters, I wont go down that path, if repeaters were used for what they were intended i.e. mobile operation then they would be a very good thing.
When these bands were more used for SSB and CW they were some real technical types on, and the dx merchants of course,really knew their stuff.
I only listen or transmit on VHF and UHF when mobile.
Ok fire away Iv'e got my tin hat on!!

[N5PVL]

I just checked in... Is this the place where you go to admit that you know nothing?

I thought maybe it was - but I just didn't know.

[n0iu]

I thought I was wrong once, but as it turns out, I had just made a mistake!

Scott NØIU

[ab0wr]

Quote[/b] ]I agree with much of what you say, Tim, but I think you missed part of my point. For my first station I built a double conversion ham bands only receiver that was electrically and mechanically (thanks to an Eddystone dial and SM drive that I wish they still produced today!) as good as anything I could buy, and a 100 watt Tx for 70 cm which was better than anything commercially available at the time. Today I could not build anything equivalent to that market position, but back then almost anyone who had passed our then single level RAE could. They weren't brighter, the technology was more accessable.

I didn't miss your point. You are still making it. You are basically saying that if you can't build something that matches the best commercial rigs, it isn't worth building. I don't buy that. I never have.

Quote[/b] ]I envy your ability to lay hands on high quality parts, where I am they are getting harder and harder to find. Even at the Rallies (hamfests) the traders tables are getting fewer and the choice poorer. Kits are available still, and are popular (which is great!) but to do it completely independantly takes luck and determination.

This just isn't true. There are all kinds of companies world wide selling all kinds of components. Go to Google and do a search on "robots" or "electronic components" and you'll find all kinds of locations to get everything you might need wherever you might live. Ebay is a treasure trove of parts - from DDS chips for building VFO's to LCDs to use in displays to SMD parts to Printed Circuit Boards. Things like wideband diode ring mixers, toroids, magnet wire, wideband video IC's (useful as IF amplifiers and VFO buffers) can be obtained cheaply.

All you are doing is perpetrating and spreading a myth that just isn't true. It's one reason why the robot community is becoming *the* place that technical people interested in building and learning electronics are congregating. They are welcomed, respected, and *encouraged* there. More and more in amateur radio they are told that building things is just "too hard" anymore.

Quote[/b] ] There are signs that making the use of homebrew gear a priviledge to be earned is making it desirable, but it is early days yet.

It will only be desirable if it is put forth as being desirable. If it is put forth as being too hard to do, it won't be perceived as desirable.

Quote[/b] ]Whilst I can sympathise with your desire that new hams should be encouraged to homebrew, I don't see it as being as important as you do.

It *is* how people learn. How many college curriculuums in Electrical Engineering include no lab classes? None that I know of. That hasn't changed from 35 years ago to today.


Quote[/b] ]When I started up new commercial gear was ruinously expensive, also AM was giving way to SSB, CW was dominant, and very few people operated RTTY. Now commercial gear is cheap, and there is a plethora of things to master that we could not dream of then.

Commercial gear is cheap? Maybe for you. But when an Icom 751 goes on ebay for $500 and it is more expensive yet at the retail dealers, I don't consider commercial gear cheap. I use a single conversion receiver with a 500hz crystal CW filter and a 1.8khz crystal SSB filter that hears as well as an IC-751a and which cost under $100 to put together - including the DDS vfo and LCD frequency display. It's just built using dead-bug construction techniques and isn't anything fancy but it works well.

Quote[/b] ] Ham radio now can be a lifetime learning experience without ever handling a soldering iron (other, of course, than such chores as putting plugs on leads!)

Yes, and recent history can be studied without ever leaving your kitchen table. But it doesn't come alive until you travel to the places you are studying, learn about the places involved, and interview people to learn about impacts on their lives.

Quote[/b] ]In a nutshell, I don't think hams are dumber than they used to be, I think reduced knowledge in some directions (following from reduced need to know) is balanced by increased knowledge in other directions, induced by the need to know. Foundation license newbies might be floored by the complexities of tuning up a hybrid rig and have difficulties in applying their newly acquired knowledge to real situations, but they often have knowledge in other directions that I have trouble assimilating, not having grown up with computers!

Is that what amateur RADIO has become? Has it morphed into amateur COMPUTER?

We differ in what "need to know" really means. For me, the laws of physics haven't changed. RF is still RF. There is still a "need to know" how to do things at RF -- i.e. radio. It seems to me that you are willing to abandon that for a "need to know" computers, or audio, or something that is not "radio". I don't think we will ever agree.

tim ab0wr

[G8ADD]

"You are basically saying that if you can't build something that matches the best commercial rigs, it isn't worth building. I don't buy that. I never have."

I don't buy it myself, but it isn't me that has to be convinced.

"This just isn't true. There are all kinds of companies world wide selling all kinds of components."

Sure there are, but in the sixties there were nine emporia in this city that I could go to and buy components over the counter and discuss substitution with a knowledgable salesperson if something was unavailable. Now the nearest one involves nearly a half day of traveling.

"Commercial gear is cheap? Maybe for you. But when an Icom 751 goes on ebay for $500 and it is more expensive yet at the retail dealers, I don't consider commercial gear cheap."

Looking back over my magazine collection, entry level rigs now are two thirds the price they were ten years ago without correcting for inflation. The reason people homebrewed in the sixties had a lot to do with not being able to afford commercial gear, because in comparison to peoples incomes it was a lot more expensive then than it is now.

"Is that what amateur RADIO has become? Has it morphed into amateur COMPUTER?"

Did I say it had? Even SDR rigs interface with an antenna. You can't blame a newby of the computer generation for flirting with echolink but few of them that I have met would claim it to be more than an intriguing offshoot of amateur radio. To me, and no doubt to you, it lacks flavour, and I leave it (and all repeaters) alone, but I refuse to try and dictate to other people where their interests should lie.

"We differ in what "need to know" really means. For me, the laws of physics haven't changed. RF is still RF. There is still a "need to know" how to do things at RF -- i.e. radio. It seems to me that you are willing to abandon that for a "need to know" computers, or audio, or something that is not "radio". I don't think we will ever agree."

No, no, no! Of course there is a "need to know" at RF, even the cleverest SDR rig needs an ATU and an antenna, or a resonant antenna. The new amateur still needs to know the ins and outs of propagation, how to make antennas, what constitutes a good earth. Above all, he needs to know how to drive his rig properly without making half a band unusable for others. All I say is that he no longer needs to know how to make a rig unless he wants to make one.

You say we will never agree, I reckon our positions are not really that much apart, but amateur radio will go its own way whatever we say or do, so just hang on and try and enjoy the ride!

73

Brian G8ADD

[k4kyv]

Quote[/b] (ai4ep @ Sep. 29 2006,11:13)]I have discovered that on C W folks do not talk about their medical problems...just on ssb.
You don't hear much of it on AM either.

[G3OZN]

And NEVER on spark