Invitation to Psychologists/Counselors

[k0ro]

OK, this is an invitation to all to chime in.

Based on your experience in amateur radio over the months or years, and also perhaps based on your experiences here at QRZ.COM, do you believe that amateur radio seems to attract a disproportionate share of people who manifest signs of Axis II personality traits or disorders?

In particular, behaviors not inconsistent with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and to a much lesser extent BPD and Histrionic Personality Disorder, seem to be found very readily both on the air and here on QRZ.COM. Frankly, it's one of the reasons I largely stopped posting and even reading the posts.

So, am I seeing demons behind every chair, or have others had similar thoughts?

Art

[G7HEU]

I think you're insane.

[WF7A]

I think we need to hunt down an easy-to-understand definition or delineation of Axis II info, Art; I briefly surfed the Web and couldn't come up with one.

IMHO--and I don't mean this as insulting to anyone--I think many hams are for the most part a little misanthropic and/or introverted; it feels safer and more comfortable to us to interact with others at a distance while maintaining total control of the interaction, i.e., we can end a conversation very easily by pleading QSB, QRM, QRN, the Wifoid calling us to dinner...whatever.

[WB2WIK]

Just because you know you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you.

[WF7A]

You're just jealous because I hear voices and you don't, Steve.

[G7HEU]

Quote[/b] (WF7A @ Sep. 13 2006,10:18)]You're just jealous because I hear voices and you don't, Steve.
You should hear what they say about you http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif


For my part, I don't even want to hurt anyone.


Blooohhaaaahpopopoiepoop.

[KC2PBJ]

Quote[/b] (KC2G @ Sep. 13 2006,11:47)]OK, this is an invitation to all to chime in.

Based on your experience in amateur radio over the months or years, and also perhaps based on your experiences here at QRZ.COM, do you believe that amateur radio seems to attract a disproportionate share of people who manifest signs of Axis II personality traits or disorders?

In particular, behaviors not inconsistent with Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and to a much lesser extent BPD and Histrionic Personality Disorder, seem to be found very readily both on the air and here on QRZ.COM. #Frankly, it's one of the reasons I largely stopped posting and even reading the posts.

So, am I seeing demons behind every chair, or have others had similar thoughts?

Art
Just because you're paranoid does not mean that we AREN'T out to get you!

[KC2PBJ]

I hear those voices but they tell me to ignore you! Go figger!!!

[KF0RT]

Quote[/b] (KC2G @ Sep. 13 2006,10:47)]Based on your experience in amateur radio over the months or years, and also perhaps based on your experiences here at QRZ.COM, do you believe that amateur radio seems to attract a disproportionate share of people who manifest signs of Axis II personality traits or disorders?
No.

73, Rob

[nx6d]

Quote[/b] (KF0RT @ Sep. 13 2006,10:52)]Quote[/b] (KC2G @ Sep. 13 2006,10:47)]Based on your experience in amateur radio over the months or years, and also perhaps based on your experiences here at QRZ.COM, do you believe that amateur radio seems to attract a disproportionate share of people who manifest signs of Axis II personality traits or disorders?
No.

73, Rob
What Rob said...

Quote[/b] ]So, am I seeing demons behind every chair, or have others had similar thoughts?

It's interesting comparing amateur radio with other
things I have been involved with (for far longer),
especially amateur radio on the internet.

What I expected was a group of people sharing
a common interest. Instead, the in-fighting, the
endless dead-horse beating, the "real" ham arguments,
the "my way is the ONLY way" types, the HamCop®
types, the types who seem to have no life
outside of amateur radio, the people on the air
who seem to thrive on finding fault with whatever
you do types, etc. has left me rather stunned.

There is NOTHING like this in amateur astronomy,
model railroading, flying model airplanes, the EAA,
and other activities I have been involved in.

I have also often wondered why someone would
go through the effort of getting an amateur radio
license, spend thousands on equipment, just so
they can belch & swear on 75 m. The jammers
and other lids baffle me too. Arguments over
protocol (using Q codes on voice, 73 vs. 73's,
etc.) quickly become theater of the absurd.


Somewhere else I saw a post which said "If amateur
radio is dying, the sooner the better. Then perhaps
it can be brought back as something which attracts
NORMAL people."

I agree with that more than I like to admit.

[ae4fa]

It's been lovely, but I really must scream now.

[WF7A]

Quote[/b] (kc9jqm @ Sep. 13 2006,04:16)]There is NOTHING like this in amateur astronomy,
model railroading, flying model airplanes, the EAA,
and other activities I have been involved in.
Ahhhh, but you see: most of those hobbies revolve around a person and a thing, not person-to-person as in ham radio.

You have to admit, it's hard to argue about the Perseus Double Cluster, but code/no-code licensing...that'll start a flurry of posts guaranteed!

[k0ro]

Rich,

I think your comments were insightful, which is better, perhaps, than inciting! I bet the same could be said about many of the original internet geeks, and some of those today. I especially think of some that I know who are obsessed with online gaming or roleplaying.

Here is a link on the personality disorders:

Wikipedia Entry on Personality Disorders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder)

In short the "Cluster B" are also known as Axis II, and are distinguished from the more pronounced psychoses. Possibly the two classic works on Borderline Personality Disorder are "Stop Walking on Eggshells," for someone living with a person who has BPD, and "I Hate You; Don't Leave Me" which expresses some of the abandonment issues associated with this. These are the people who leave you thinking you're the crazy one, as you constantly get mixed messages: I love you so much, but if you happen to disappoint me, I'll scorch and burn you (even though I love you SO MUCH).

You can read on the rest, but the Narcissistic Personality Disorder person typically has a very inflated sense of self that actually covers the fact that he/she has little sense of self; therefore his/her sense of self is derived from the feedback of others, and other people often become little more than objects to manipulate (consciously or not) to obtain the necessary "fix." Folks like Jeff Karr (now in California) or Scott Petersen are probably good examples. A friend of mine, while in a divorce/custody fight, watched her husband tell the court that: "Nobody in Springfield is qualified to evaluate me psychologically. I am far too intelligent for any of them to understand or appreciate, and if anything, I should be evaluating them." This is classic NPD! I bet THAT went over well with the judge.

These issues are a continuum or spectrum with overlap. People may manifest tendencies associated with these personality disorders while the behavior/thought patterns do not rise to the level of a personality disorder.

I simply have noticed that more than a few hams I've encountered seem to fit these profiles, especially those who seem to chime in on the more "controversial" issues in a manner that seems designed more to show the superiority of the one making the post, and the manifest, self-evident, and parochial ignorance of all those who disagree.

OK, enough of this soapbox. And by the way, I appreciate being called insane...for insanity may be the sane response to an insane world!

Art

Quote[/b] ]Ahhhh, but you see: most of those hobbies revolve around a person and a thing, not person-to-person as in ham radio.

True.

[ab8ma]

Quote[/b] (KC2G @ Sep. 13 2006,16:47)]OK, this is an invitation to all to chime in.
The confrontation of my idealistic futurological ideas with reality somewhat resembles a crash.

[KA9VQF]

Quote[/b] ]
{edited quote}
What I expected was a group of people sharing
a common interest. Instead, the in-fighting, the
endless dead-horse beating, the "real" ham arguments,
the "my way is the ONLY way" types, the HamCop®
types, the types who seem to have no life
outside of amateur radio, the people on the air
who seem to thrive on finding fault with whatever
you do types, etc. has left me rather stunned.


In the short time I was in model railroading I met many people who had exactly these traits.

They would get in heated arguments about railroads that are long gone from the face of the planet.

They would argue about the authenticity of each other’s layouts. What color box cars, engines, flatcars, and cabooses should be whether or not such and such bill board ad should be painted on the side of the buildings of the layout.

People would quit the club if things were not done the way they wanted with the club’s layout.

I contributed what I thought was a lot of my time and did some darn good airbrush work on a lot of the lines equipment as well as general layout work I also contributed what I thought was a lot of money to buy more stuff to add to the lay out.

It got to where I dreaded going to a meeting because I knew that nothing constructive would be done. Many times the arguments would be in progress before meeting time and we wouldn’t even run any trains.

I quit.

Maybe it was just the group I was trying to be in with, but I got the idea that all train groups were the same and have never sought out a new bunch. I sold what model train stuff I had, never looked back.

[WF7A]

Thanks, Art, for the link and letter. ;> Insightful? More like inciteful: there's a City of Seattle injunction filed against me in the late 1990s preventing me from ever playing a musical instrument within city limits again...something about "inciting riots" because I was so bad at it.

I remember the myth of Echo and Narcissus, so it was interesting to read how it was referred to as a personality disorder. I think we see the "mine is bigger than yours" testosterone-like mentality on here because it's a self-defense issue: when we're attacked or mocked in a public forum such as this, we try to defend ourselves by upping the ante response-wise—whoever gets the last or best retort, wins. (Tactful responses nonwithstanding.) Unfortunately, the original topic and social graces go quickly out the window and bathos and pathos ensues. It's the worst when someone who isn't literate or has poor composition skills is attacked--they tend to be easy targets; they lash out at users who are quick to point out their flaws.

As an interesting "experiment", I'd like to see what other hobbies hams partake in or enjoy: there seems to be a pattern to it since many hams are also pilots, enjoy amateur astronomy, etc. Maybe we can start a poll on QRZ to see what they are.

Okay, enough Pop Psych 101 for the day: that dang voice is calling for me again. Oh, wait--it's my boss. Even worse. :S

[nq6v]

At my job at the carnival, I have noticed that only in the management and damn few of them to boot, and amoung some of the, oh hell, one other deiver besides myself does the level of intellect even approach what i read here on QRZ.COM. I belive the banter on this forum is too casual to be taken too seriously, and therefore a claim of reconizable behavior disorders is not a valid one.Every one here tries to be at least civilized with each other, a behavior trait that is not congruent to disorders that control a persons life.

Everybody has personality traits, and a persons personality is a window to their character, which is a window to their mental wellness.
I shake and rattle everyones cage, and get only polite responses from them. I found that maddening, until I realized I was trying to get the goat of some of the worlds brightest, who you cannot get the goat of.

Now if you want to prepare a study and report on personality disorders, come on down to my work QTH.

[w4rot]

http://www.coldbacon.com/pics/kliban/bksimple.jpg

[W2ILP]

kc2g

From what I had learned about psychology I can understand that it is unfair to diagnose members of any subset as to their relative normality. In fact it takes quite some time for a professional head shrinker to be certain about the mental health of even one individual...BUT
The study of who is attracted to and who is not attracted to a hobby is another subject that fits well into the realm of SOCIOLOGY.

Ham Radfio is for some a social club...while for others it is a hobby that they do alone. For some it is a technical hobby or an educational hobby that introduces very basic communication theory...For others a fun sport for hunting QSL cards. For others it is an escape from worse habbits. ETC... So I have always said that:-
HAM RADIO MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE.
That being said...I must also say that ham radio has had different incentives in each decade and at present it is on the decline...BUT that is not just Ham Radio it is lots of social club memberships that are decreasing...be they Masons, Mensans, Magicians, Musicians or Mesmerizers. People are not joiners to the extent that they once were. I don't think it is just individualism or "I'd rather do it myself" types. In some cases folks are shy in others they are snobs but many don't want to sociaslize because it is now the fad to only do so in chat groups on the Internet.

In recent years Ham Radio in particular has lost its prestiege on one hand because of entry exams that are too easy and on the other hand because entry exams are too difficult and not worth the effort for folks who can use cell phones and the Internet to communicate without any license.

Both high schools and colleges are not encouraging students to get ham licenses. THere are fewer active school ham clubs. The college professors believe that hams are no longer qualified as electronics experts because they no longer build their own gear nor do they keep up with the present advanced state of the art as they did in the early days of radio. AND SO....
I am now seeing applicants for ham licenses that were sent to our VE session by their psychologists because they believe that Ham Radio is a worthy form of theropy for the mentaslly limited (some of whom can not manage to use computers). . I don't want to say this is so for many applicants...BUT I can recognize that some of the recent ones are unfortunately suffering from mental illnesses while the sanity of many others is under suspicion.

w2ilp (Ignore Limited Psychoanalysis)...but the general sociological aspects may be valid. I myself was bitten by the HAM BUG many years ago when Ham Radio meant more to more people. I unfortunately will never stop hamming myself....it is in my blood.

[wa9cwx]

Re-read NQ6Vs post.
Then re - read it.
Then read it again.

THAT is the point.

We are civil, yet passionate about a hobby that we have invested time and money into, and our interactions here, FOR THE MOST part, are decent and respectful.

People KILL eachother over how to say their peace prayers in some other countries.

There is not enough of a 'personality' present here to make a sound judgment about ANYTHING, other than our 'keyboard' etiquete.

A FEW seem over the edge, so what ELSE is new?

I do agree about hams being introverted, THAT is my impression from 44 years of knowing hams, NOT from a few typed words on an internet site.

No one here is qualified to evaluate me anyhow.....

Go away and don't bother me.

[wa9cwx]

ILP,

WELL put ! http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[al2i]

Quote[/b] ]So, am I seeing demons behind every chair...

Yes, those are chairs.

http://www.davemcgraw.com/Images/SanePeople.jpg

[W4BCR]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Sep. 17 2006,03:04)]Quote[/b] ]So, am I seeing demons behind every chair...

Yes, those are chairs.

http://www.davemcgraw.com/Images/SanePeople.jpg
You are going to drive the armchair psycologist nuts trying to figure out your post. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[KE5FRF]

My only observation is that the more we define labels for people, the more we find out that "normal" is a very rare thing to be. Not so long ago in man's past, people got along just fine recognizing that some folks were just "different". I think the realm of psychology/psychaitry should be to help folks who are a danger to themselves or others, and sometimes science is successful in that purpose. But it seems today to be fashionable to assign some kind of phobia, sickness, or instability to everyone who used to be just "different". IMHO, this is the modern venue to which men have directed their bigotries that used to be based on skin color,religion, or ethnicity. Since our political correct culture has condemned judgements based upon these generalities, and since it is deeply ingrained in men to classify their superiority over others, we have used (or abused) "science" to justify a new kind of bigotry. I say we need to get away from labels and live and let live.