View Full Version : U.S.Warantless wiretaps
wa8rti
08-23-2006, 01:31 PM
Dennis Hastert justifies the warrantless wiretaps as having been what foiled the plot to blow up trans Atlantic flights. #I guess the Brits did nothing and #deserve none of the credit. #No doubt #having to obtain a warrant from a judge would have prevented the NSA from stopping #this terrorist act!!!! If you believe that, I have some land in Florida and bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
Social network analysis of e-mail and phone records is a powerful tool.
There's no doubt in my mind that the NSA'a program contributed to the arrests in Britain. For sure the Brits deserve the lions share of the kudo's for their boots on the ground work.
One little factoid.
The british threshold for a search isn't nearly as tough as ours. All they need is a "reasonable suspicion" and the higher ups in the police department and Scotland Yard make the decision on what's reasonable, not a judge.
KB9YCO
08-23-2006, 02:29 PM
It seems like everyone is missing the major point of this debate. It has nothing to do with whether those programs should be available, it has to do with whether the people conducting those programs are accountable for their actions after the fact. Though I think it is un-constitutional, I'm sure it is a valuable tool in a time of war, that doesn't mean that the same checks and balances of our system don't still apply.
Everyone wants to emotionalize this issue (like most issues these days, if you defend this program you are a patriot, if you don't than you hate America, what a load of crap) instead of looking at the real point of the debate. It has nothing to do with whether or not they should be doing it, it has to do with no one watching the watchers, an extremely dangerous precedent to set. Tap, tap, tap away, but be accountable for your actions especially since it could be an easily abused "privilege" and deserves a large measure of scrutiny.
Quote[/b] ]Though I think it is un-constitutional, I'm sure it is a valuable tool in a time of war, that doesn't mean that the same checks and balances of our system don't still apply.
Who's constitutional rights have been violated?
The only ones I can think of that *might* have an argument are those here in this country receiving phone calls from Al-Quaeda or other known, outside of the US, terrorists organizations, and quite frankly I couldn't care less about their rights.
All of the constitutional hand wringing and "could be abused", "might be abused" etc... is all fine and good till we end up with another couple of smoking piles of rubble. The thing is, the people complaining about the program will be the very same people screeching at the top of their lungs for somebody's head if it turns out we could have prevented it with the now useless NSA program.
This republic has survived for over 300 years, through war and peace, with a constitution that provides for individual rights and checks and balances for our government. Now along comes GWB who thinks he knows better and he wants to forget about all of that. If he wants to conduct wiretaps, then he should follow the law as provided for in the constitution and obtain a warrant. Allowing one branch of a government to exercise its power without any any of the constitutional checks and balances is the path to a police state.
KB9YCO
08-23-2006, 03:32 PM
Quote[/b] ]Who's constitutional rights have been violated?
The only ones I can think of that *might* have an argument are those here in this country receiving phone calls from Al-Quaeda or other known, outside of the US, terrorists organizations, and quite frankly I couldn't care less about their rights.
Gee, I don't know, EVERYONE'S rights. Anyone could receive a home or cell phone call, email, letter, from a 'suspected' person and/or country and become automatically suspect. Perhaps it sounds inlikely, but not unrealistic in these days of mass communication on so many levels.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Sounds logical to me.
And remember we're not talking just about foreign agents, suspected terrorists, etc., we're talking about American citizens, anyone that could be considered a 'threat' in an administration with a quickly growing definition of who constitutes a threat or is a terrorist, and then weilding their power with accountability to no one but themselves.
<a href="http://www.billofrights.com/the_patriot_act_and_civil_liberties.htm" target="_blank">It's a far-out scenario, sure. A wrong number and an anti-war poster and the next think you know your every conversation is being recorded and personal details of your life are being entered into a nationwide database. And then one day you come home to find people hired by people appointed by George W. Bush-remember Michael Brown?-inside your house, which you aren't allowed to go into. Sound farfetched? Orwellian? Paranoid?
Tell that to Steve Kurtz. Kurtz teaches art at NYU at Buffalo. After his wife died of a cardiac arrest, the Feds got suspicious of his art supplies. He was detained because it was suspected that his art supplies could be used to make bioterrorist weapons. While he sat in jail, every inch of his house was gone over with a fine-toothed comb, his computers were impounded, his wife's corpse was investigated, and eventually his house was condemned by the Buffalo Health Department. Later it was discovered that not only was the material that set off this alarm not being used for to make weapons, it wasn't even possible to use the material to make weapons.</a>
Not arrested, detained without any outside contact for the duration. All with no warrant, based on a 'suspicion' with no actual proof. That's scary stuff and I am sure there are other examples out there. How can you not see that as being blatantly un-constitutional?
And again, I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with a so-called spying program based on a solid lead, etc., but a spying program run secretly, and with no accountability and no respect to the checks and balances of the branches of government, is a very dangerous precedent to set and accept as an American that doesn't enjoy seeing the constant erosion of our "gauranteed rights".
W3MIV
08-23-2006, 04:09 PM
Quote[/b] (al2i @ Aug. 23 2006,09:41)]Social network analysis of e-mail and phone records is a powerful tool.
As is profiling, a tool which I can personally attest to when it comes to sheer effectiveness.
Racial profiling, as has been practiced by various local and state police agencies over the past several decades, often has been a meanly misapplied tool -- not much different really than Lizzie Borden's hatchet. The error has been to blame the hatchet, and then attempt to engage Lizzie in a constructive dialogue, weeping with her over her victimization, and offering to share her pain.
The result of that abuse has been a refusal to use the tool effectively and skillfully, as it is done elsewhere in the world, not least in Israel. El Al has the best security track record of all.
It is but another sign that we are not yet serious about combatting terrorism, and concern ourselves more with short-term political gratification than with long-term success in a very dangerous game that can only become far worse as another election looms.
Quote[/b] (W0MT @ Aug. 23 2006,07:13)]This republic has survived for over 300 years, through war and peace, with a constitution that provides for individual rights and checks and balances for our government. Now along comes GWB who thinks he knows better and he wants to forget about all of that. If he wants to conduct wiretaps, then he should follow the law as provided for in the constitution and obtain a warrant. Allowing one branch of a government to exercise its power without any any of the constitutional checks and balances is the path to a police state.
Where do you live?
n0jaa
08-23-2006, 04:38 PM
Amendment IV.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
'Nuff said.
Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Aug. 23 2006,08:38)]Amendment IV.
"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
'Nuff said.
If you are saying that I should not have to periodically pee in a bottle or annually bare my every life intimacy and financial soul in a 1040 long form then good for you! I agree!
If you are complaining about wiretaps in the absence of defending my constitutional right to be secure in my urine and finances, then BUGGER OFF!
Quote[/b] ]This republic has survived for over 300 years, through war and peace, with a constitution that provides for individual rights and checks and balances for our government.
I don't know what republic is being talked about here, but 300 years ago Maryland was a British Colony operating under Royal Charter to Lord Baltimore and no Constitution.
230 years ago Maryland was an independent state operating on its own Constitution in union with 12 other states under the Articles of Confederation and no Bill of Rights.
As for the Brits. I don't think they were operating under the same Constitutional checks that GWB is under.
I am certainly thankful to them for catching this plot before another attack occured.
W3MIV
08-23-2006, 05:01 PM
Quote[/b] (ac3p @ Aug. 23 2006,12:58)]Quote[/b] ]This republic has survived for over 300 years, through war and peace, with a constitution that provides for individual rights and checks and balances for our government.
I don't know what republic is being talked about here, but 300 years ago Maryland was a British Colony operating under Royal Charter to Lord Baltimore and no Constitution.
230 years ago Maryland was an independent state operating on its own Constitution in union with 12 other states under the Articles of Confederation and no Bill of Rights.
As for the Brits. I don't think they were operating under the same Constitutional checks that GWB is under.
I am certainly thankful to them for catching this plot before another attack occured.
Good and factual points, all noted with gratitude. Not least the last.
Quote[/b] ]The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated,
The keyword there is unreasonable.
I don't think it's "unreasonable" for the NSA to intercept phone or internet traffic originating outside of the US and coming from known terrorist organizations or state sponsors of terrorism like Iran and Syria, without having to go through the bureaucratic horse crap of getting a warrant from a technically challenged federal judge.
The terrorists are using our own systems and laws against us and things move way to fast to rely on a system of issuing FISA warrants which was put in place 30 years ago, before there was an internet or world wide speed of light communication.
In the US, law enforcement doesn't have to obtain a search warrant if they have probable cause to believe a crime is being committed. Why does the NSA have to be held to a higher standard? I'd say a phone call or email from a know terrorist entity qualifies as "probable cause".
Do you think the terrorists are phoning or emailing home to Chicago, Detroit, or New York for the grocery list?
Nobody is that stupid are they?
W3MIV
08-23-2006, 05:58 PM
Quote[/b] (AC0H @ Aug. 23 2006,13:35)]Nobody is that stupid are they?
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Why is phone traffic sacrosanct and e-mail open to government snooping and scrutiny?
I think it is because telephones were invented in a time when there was still modest respect for the Constitution.