Better killing through chemistry:

[k4kyv]

Binary liquid explosives are a sexy staple of Hollywood thrillers. It would be tedious to enumerate the movie terrorists who've employed relatively harmless liquids that, when mixed, immediately rain destruction upon an innocent populace.

The funny thing about these movies is, we never learn just which two chemicals can be handled safely when separate, yet instantly blow us all to kingdom come when combined. Nevertheless, we maintain a great eagerness to believe in these substances, chiefly because action movies wouldn't be as much fun if we didn't.

Now we have news of the recent, supposedly real-world, terrorist plot to destroy commercial airplanes by smuggling onboard the benign precursors to a deadly explosive, and mixing up a batch of liquid death in the lavatories. So, were these guys for real, or have they, and the counterterrorist officials supposedly protecting us, been watching too many action movies?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (k4kyv @ Aug. 21 2006,13:51)]Binary liquid explosives are a sexy staple of Hollywood thrillers. It would be tedious to enumerate the movie terrorists who've employed relatively harmless liquids that, when mixed, immediately rain destruction upon an innocent populace.

The funny thing about these movies is, we never learn just which two chemicals can be handled safely when separate, yet instantly blow us all to kingdom come when combined. Nevertheless, we maintain a great eagerness to believe in these substances, chiefly because action movies wouldn't be as much fun if we didn't.

Now we have news of the recent, supposedly real-world, terrorist plot to destroy commercial airplanes by smuggling onboard the benign precursors to a deadly explosive, and mixing up a batch of liquid death in the lavatories. So, were these guys for real, or have they, and the counterterrorist officials supposedly protecting us, been watching too many action movies?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/
"[Sigh]... no guts.... no glory."



s f/x SNIP



"Plllbbbbbbhhhh! ....Raspberry syrup!"


http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kf5er]

I don't know. But then I didn't know
granular fertilize mixed with diesel would
explode until the Texas City Explosion years ago.

[kc7mrq]

Quote[/b] (k4kyv @ Aug. 21 2006,10:51)]The funny thing about these movies is, we never learn just which two chemicals can be handled safely when separate, yet instantly blow us all to kingdom come when combined.
Here is a neat and relatively safebinary explosive (http://www.fixor.com/) from our neighbors to the north. However, common folk can not purchase the stuff.

Quote[/b] ]I don't know. But then I didn't know
granular fertilize mixed with diesel would
explode until the Texas City Explosion years ago.

Tannerite (http://www.tannerite.com) is a fertilizer/fuel oil explosive that is mixed with zirconium hydride to sensitize it. A bullet, with a velocity >1700fps will set the stuff off. I use it all the time to emmulate TNT targets during turkey shoots. It's legal to own and very easy to mix.

[al2n]

You don't need a very big explosion to take down a passenger jet.

Just enough to poke a hole in the aircraft will cause an explosive decompression that will either crash the plane or make it very difficult to fly.

They were not looking for a big bang, just enough to cause the aircraft to tear itself apart.

[G8ADD]

One news bulletin mentioned that the suspects had hydrogen peroxide but no further details came out. Weaker solutions of H2O2 are a good oxidising agent but are relatively harmless, except for increasing the proportion of blondes in the population. The concentrated stuff is another matter, it is nasty stuff and will explode if it contacts almost anything.

73

Brian G8ADD

[al2n]

While not a liquid, Thermite is a rather nasty substance and will burn right through an aircraft in a few seconds. Would make the hole needed for explosive decompression for sure.

The base ingredients and an ignition source are very common and could be carried on board fairly easily.

As for liquids, peroxide is a weak thing to use, but what about all these oxygenator type cleaners out there? They would make a much better base over regular hydrogen peroxide. Willing to bet one of these cleaners was an ingredient in the mix.

[G8ADD]

Quote[/b] (al2n @ Aug. 22 2006,03:54)]As for liquids, peroxide is a weak thing to use, but what about all these oxygenator type cleaners out there? #They would make a much better base over regular hydrogen peroxide. #Willing to bet one of these cleaners was an ingredient in the mix.
Concentrated hydrogen peroxide was the fuel for the German rocket fighter, the Komet, any spill during refueling was an immediate disaster, it is only feeble in the weak solutions that you can easily buy - but even that can be concentrated by electrolysis. It would take a brave man to try, I'm certainly too chicken, but in their own way these suicide bombers are brave and determined.

73

Brian G8ADD

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (G8ADD @ Aug. 22 2006,10:05)]It would take a brave man to try, I'm certainly too chicken, but in their own way these suicide bombers are brave and determined.
If your own death is an incentive, where is the sting?

I continue to be astonished at the ways the mad mullahs can turn the teachings of the Quran wrong-side-up and inspire young men and women to commit suicide under the cynical guise of a "sacrifice."

[WF7A]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Aug. 21 2006,23:11)]I continue to be astonished at the ways the mad mullahs can turn the teachings of the Quran wrong-side-up and inspire young men and women to commit suicide under the cynical guise of a "sacrifice."
It's not astonishing at all, really--when you feel that your life has no meaning, is full of hardship, and have no hope, and/or sense of purpose, you'll gravitate to something...anything...that promises you a reward, be it spiritual, monetary, or materialistic.

Since the cultures involved are pretty much based on religion (or a belief system, if you will), what better way to turn the hearts and minds of the downtrodden than to convince them that they'll sit by the side of God if they take out a few of their enemies? It's nothing new: Christians have waged many a war (and killed many a "heretic" [Jews, Muslims, etc.]) over many centuries in the name of God, so there's no monopoly here.

I'm reminded of the old adage, "Old men wage war; young men fight them."

[kl7aj]

Well, the bombs these latest bozos were working on were supposedly hydrogen peroxide bombs. The problem is, medical grade peroxide is only about 2%....the worst that could happen is everyone would get a good dose of "blonde." Now, if they could get 98% peroxide, they really would have had something...that's rocket fuel.

-e

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (WF7A @ Aug. 22 2006,11:02)]It's not astonishing at all, really--when you feel that your life has no meaning, is full of hardship, and have no hope, and/or #sense of purpose, you'll gravitate to something...anything...that promises you a reward, be it spiritual, monetary, or materialistic.
I must differ here.

An examination of the terrorists who commandeered the aircraft on September 11, 2001, and flew them to their own destruction do not at all fit your description.

While I would agree that the vast milling herd in the most desolate and benighted Islamic communities, whether in their native lands or in the West, do largely accord with your characterization, many do not.

Since the hard-core terrorist leadership cynically recruits and sends many of these ignorant mujahadin to their deaths on suicide missions is clear.

But the exceptions are the worrisome lot, since they have acclimated themselves sufficiently to modern education and technology to pose a threat widely separated from their kin in the mud huts of Middle Asia.

Even the most fundamentalist Christian activists, though only too willing to murder the odd abortion clinic operator, fail to rise to the incredible level of accumulated hate and desire for retribution that these Islamofascists (sogennante) display in frightening numbers.

The world must figure out how to effectively deal with this problem; it is growing, not shrinking, and it is becoming ever clearer that the WHOLE of the West is the target, not just the US.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Aug. 22 2006,06:11)]I continue to be astonished at the ways the mad mullahs can turn the teachings of the Quran wrong-side-up and inspire young men and women to commit suicide under the cynical guise of a "sacrifice."
I am not so sure that they are turning the Koran "wrong side up". I think that they take it pretty literally.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (WF7A @ Aug. 22 2006,07:02)]Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Aug. 21 2006,23:11)]I continue to be astonished at the ways the mad mullahs can turn the teachings of the Quran wrong-side-up and inspire young men and women to commit suicide under the cynical guise of a "sacrifice."
It's not astonishing at all, really--when you feel that your life has no meaning, is full of hardship, and have no hope, and/or sense of purpose, you'll gravitate to something...anything...that promises you a reward, be it spiritual, monetary, or materialistic.

I think this is the most common error made in the West: that the suicide bombers are created by economic hardship. It is quite obvious now that they are made by Islam. Mohammed Atta and his ilk enjoyed financial means that were well above most of the people on this planet.

Islam does tend to be associated with mass poverty however, and I suspect that is what we would see in most of the Middle East if it wasn't for the massive oil reservoirs.

[K0RGR]

Quote[/b] (al2n @ Aug. 22 2006,01:20)]You don't need a very big explosion to take down a passenger jet.

Just enough to poke a hole in the aircraft will cause an explosive decompression that will either crash the plane or make it very difficult to fly.

They were not looking for a big bang, just enough to cause the aircraft to tear itself apart.
Actually, Mythbusters took this one on some time ago. They pressurized an old airliner to the same differential pressure you would have with a pressurized cabin at 30,000 feet, and then fired various caliber weapons through the fuselage, even shooting out windows, in an attempt to reconstruct the kind of catastrophic decompression you see in movies. They could not do it - not even close. Things would be blown around inside the plane, but Goldfinger would definitely NOT be sucked out the porthole.

I think in those cases where depressurization resulted in the loss of the aircraft, there was some other force at work. With the British Comet jetliner, the problem was that metal fatigue caused the whole cabin to separate. On another, it appeared that the cargo bay door blew out, causing the passenger deck to fail, and severing all the plane's control lines.

This big pre-election day plot is looking more and more unlikely.

[K0RGR]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Aug. 22 2006,08:31)]Quote[/b] (WF7A @ Aug. 22 2006,07:02)]Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Aug. 21 2006,23:11)]I continue to be astonished at the ways the mad mullahs can turn the teachings of the Quran wrong-side-up and inspire young men and women to commit suicide under the cynical guise of a "sacrifice."
It's not astonishing at all, really--when you feel that your life has no meaning, is full of hardship, and have no hope, and/or sense of purpose, you'll gravitate to something...anything...that promises you a reward, be it spiritual, monetary, or materialistic.

I think this is the most common error made in the West: that the suicide bombers are created by economic hardship. It is quite obvious now that they are made by Islam. Mohammed Atta and his ilk enjoyed financial means that were well above most of the people on this planet.

Islam does tend to be associated with mass poverty however, and I suspect that is what we would see in most of the Middle East if it wasn't for the massive oil reservoirs.
Once again, in an interview with some of the mullahs, they said that they, too, believe in "freedom of religion". But they believe it means that they are free from ideas that compete with Islam.

In Iran, the mullahs and President Ahmadinthehead are selling the idea that western democracy has "failed", and that instead, the world should turn to strict Islam.

More of these terror plots are being planned by people born and raised in the west, rather than graduates of the Afghan and Pakistani terror schools.

The mullahs, the radicals, the terrorists, and the paramilitary factions all seem to be uniting in this anti-western, anti-democratic movement. As JTY would put it, "if you keep whacking that hornets' nest" this is what you get. When Indonesia attacks San Francisco, don't forget we told you so.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Aug. 22 2006,11:31)]Quote[/b] (WF7A @ Aug. 22 2006,07:02)]Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Aug. 21 2006,23:11)]I continue to be astonished at the ways the mad mullahs can turn the teachings of the Quran wrong-side-up and inspire young men and women to commit suicide under the cynical guise of a "sacrifice."
It's not astonishing at all, really--when you feel that your life has no meaning, is full of hardship, and have no hope, and/or #sense of purpose, you'll gravitate to something...anything...that promises you a reward, be it spiritual, monetary, or materialistic.

I think this is the most common error made in the West: that the suicide bombers are created by economic hardship. #It is quite obvious now that they are made by Islam. #Mohammed Atta and his ilk enjoyed financial means that were well above most of the people on this planet.

Islam does tend to be associated with mass poverty however, and I suspect that is what we would see in most of the Middle East if it wasn't for the massive oil reservoirs.
The vast, seething mass of Asia incorporates large numbers of people living under similar, perhaps in some cases, worse conditions.

The difference is quite clearly in the philosophy of their leaders more than in the philosophy of their beliefs. Islam, like the Judeo-Christian Bible, is easily distorted by an exegete with an agenda.

Other than the relatively recent excursions of the Japanese from 1930 through 1945, all "modern" Asian wars, including that of Korea, were essentially civil wars that grew outside of bounds because of international balance of power reactions.

The situation in Korea today reflects the unsettled detritus of the stale-mated conclusions of fifty-three years ago. Viet Nam, too, was a civil war that resulted from the successful effort to eject the die-hard French colonialists that grew out of bounds due to the same kinds of balance of power reactions.

The periodic struggles of China versus Taiwan fit the same mold, and only when "balance-of-power" considerations come into play (remember Quemoy and Matsu?) do the internal Chinese tensions threaten a wider war. China has NEVER shown a hegemonistic streak as was ALWAYS an element of the foreign policies of her northern neighbor cum suitor cum competitor, the Soviet Union. And those policies were not the brain children of Lenin and his thugs, but had been an active element of Russian neuroses dating back to the early Tsars.

This new "War on Terrorism" reflects a return to the Crusades, and the mentality opposing us dates from that time. It must be dealt with by the MEANS of those times if we are to gain the upper hand.

[al2i]

Hang on while I look up "exegete." http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (K0RGR @ Aug. 22 2006,12:03)]As JTY would put it, "if you keep whacking that hornets' nest" this is what you get. When Indonesia attacks San Francisco, don't forget we told you so.
I tire of seeing the amentia that clearly undergirds this anserine comment being bruited as a badge of smug self-satisfaction.

The nest having been swatted, for whatever reason impelled by whatever motivation, will not be stilled by dialogue, by sharing a latte at the local poetry reading or tie-dying a few bhurkahs together while weeping for joy in a multicultural embrace.

There is only ONE way to deal with a wasps' nest. It is past time to get on with it.

[al2i]

Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Aug. 22 2006,08:07)]This new "War on Terrorism" reflects a return to the Crusades, and the mentality opposing us dates from that time. It must be dealt with by the MEANS of those times if we are to gain the upper hand.
I have a ready supply of stones and stout birch polearms (http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Pole_weapon). Let me know when you need them.

[WF7A]

I'll save you the trouble http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

exegesis (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exegesis)

I have to doff my hat to you, Albert--you're the most literate poster I've ever encountered on the Internet.

>This new "War on Terrorism" reflects a return to the Crusades, and the mentality opposing us dates from that time. It must be dealt with by the MEANS of those times if we are to gain the upper hand.<

Cool--time to break out the crossbows, battle axes and trebuchets. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[WF7A]

*laugh* Great minds think alike, Dave.

[W3MIV]

Quote[/b] (al2i @ Aug. 22 2006,12:23)]Quote[/b] (W3MIV @ Aug. 22 2006,08:07)]This new "War on Terrorism" reflects a return to the Crusades, and the mentality opposing us dates from that time. It must be dealt with by the MEANS of those times if we are to gain the upper hand.
I have a ready supply of stones and stout birch polearms (http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Pole_weapon). #Let me know when you need them.
Thank you. My friend Stash is already flexing his muscles in preparation for the task.

I note by edit that the USMC has been using these in training for quite some number of years, unless of course, the "New Age" has girdled the Corps' cojones in the same ways it has affected our collective judgment and will to act. There are (were?) called Pugil Sticks.

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