The Latest Fund Raiser From The ARRL

[kg4kww]

Check This Out.

ARRL Rings (http://www.mastercraftawards.com/arrl/)

ARRL Ring Price List (http://mastercraftawards.com/arrl/check_order_form.pdf)

[ab8ro]

That's just embarrassing.

[KG4RUL]

What is embarassing is an "NFL Wannabee" who orders and WEARS a reproduction Superbowl ring. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[K3UD]

The Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA) did much the same thing about 18 months ago. In their case it was not a ring but a custom minted coin featuring historical aircraft and some targeted DVDs dealing with model aircraft. I think this was a monthly program where they sent the coin and DVD or the month on approval and you either purchased it or sent it back. This worked like the CBS or BMG record / CD clubs.

The membership had no advance warning and when these items showed up there was a lot of confusion and some anger among the AMA membership. Although you had the option of keeping the first offering without charge I think that most sent them back in the postage paid return mailer. I know that I did.

Shortly after, there was an apologetic editorial in the AMA magazine, Model Aviation. I do not know if the program is still in effect as I never got another offering. I wonder what this cost the AMA.

It seems that the ARRL (and AMA) is looking at anything they can do to generate some revenue. We get solicitations for the Diamond Club, the Credit Card program and now the merchandise (ring) program. I joind the ARRL for the Amateur Radio services that they offer and to be part of the organization. I purchase some of their publications and sometimes send some money to support Amateur radio growth efforts.

I think that they should focus on keeping their members informed and having an ear towards their needs. I don't think that things like the Diamond Club, the Credit Card program and now the ARRL ring program bring much to the table as it concerns growing membership as well as recruiting new hams. This more is about getting more money out of existing membership.

If a ring floats your boat, by all means indulge.

73
George
K3UD

[KI4NGN]

I'll preface my question with the fact that I just joined ARRL a few months ago.

Is it possible that they try things like these rings (which made me laugh when I received the email) as alternatives to raising membership dues?

Are membership dues enough to sustain the organization in the way that amateurs are accustomed to viewing and depending upon?

I don't know, I don't have time to research it, and I suspect that many have done so already, hence my question. This question is the first thing that popped into my mind when I received the hype about the ring....why on earth are they doing this? Are membership dues not cutting it?

Thanks,

Mike, Raleigh NC

[ne3r]

I thought to myself, who is going to buy these? They probably got marketed into it. The ring compnay found an organization with 100+ thousand members and thought it was a good idea.

Any way they can raise funds is ok with me. I try to buy my ARRL books direct from them and I pay my dues, that is about it.

73
Joe
N3PAQ

[ab8ro]

Mike,

Possibly. Probably. But it's still embarrassing. The membership dues are just a bit too high already as far as I'm concerned. I'd just as soon not receive QST. Or, I'd get more excited about QST if they'd pull all the mamby pamby crap out of it and just included the QEX articles.

I don't have an answer, I don't really know.

Looking at the annual reports it seems that publication revenue + advertising revenue just about equals membership dues. Since membership dues are at five million the three million in publication revenue must not include any of our membership dues for QST. Publication costs are about the same as publication revenue so I suppose selling handbooks pays for QST.

I almost didn't renew this year as I'm moving. But, I went ahead and renewed anyway. If the raise the rates next year, I might not bother.

[n0iu]

Quote[/b] (N3PAQ @ Aug. 07 2006,00:41)]I thought to myself, who is going to buy these?
Probably the same people who buy these!

badge (http://ssl.maxsell.com/productdetails.aspx?productID=2011)

Scott NØIU

[K3UD]

The problem is that anytime you raise membership dues (or any periodical subscription rate) you are going to lose members or subscribers. The ARRL might well be trying to keep the dues where they are as they continue to lose members and an increase will most likely increase the rate of loss.

The strategy seems to get more dollars out of existing members by having programs like this one. I imagine that a certain percentage of members will opt for the rings. I wonder what the wholesale rate to the ARRL is. I looked at the pricing and having been involved with high school class rings brokered by Josten's (a one stop broker for rings, yearbooks ect.) it looks like the ARRL gets a nice dollar amount from each ring. If existing members flock to this offering they might be able to hold the line on dues. Personally I can not see myself paying $200 - almost $500 for a ring. In fact I can not imagine buying any kind of ring http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif But some will. Perhaps the ARL will offer the official ARRL badge that N0IU referred to. Maybe they can issue an annual 'yearbook' of some kind.

73
George
K3UD

[ne3r]

Quote[/b] (K3UD @ Aug. 07 2006,07:19)]73
George
K3UD

73
George
K3UD
Must have heard it on the long path too http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

That badge cracked me up!

73
Joe
N3PAQ

[N5PVL]

It's a 'heads up' that it is time to start looking into a new national organization that is considerably slimmer, trimmer and better focused than the ARRL has come to be.

[WA2ZDY]

Quote[/b] (K3UD @ Aug. 07 2006,08:10)]I think this was a monthly program where they sent the coin and DVD or the month on approval and you either purchased it or sent it back. This worked like the CBS or BMG record / CD clubs.

The membership had no advance warning and when these items showed up there was a lot of confusion and some anger among the AMA membership. Although you had the option of keeping the first offering without charge I think that most sent them back in the postage paid return mailer. I know that I did.
That was mighty nice of you to send it back. #When someone sends me something unsolicited, I use the postage paid return to send them a thank-you note. #

Anything sent unsolicited is a gift requiring no further action on the part of the recipient. #That's the law in the US.

And while wearing that jewelry isn't MY thing (I wear enough jewelry already, none of it chinzy looking like that ARRL junk) those prices are horrifying. Embarrassing isn't the word for it.

[KI4NGN]

Joe - That badge cracked me up too! My first inclination was that surely no one would actually purchase one of those, but then the reality sank in that obviously someone must! Sad and humorous at the same time.

Hey, if it helps hold dues down, well then good for those of us who aren't faced with increases!

Mike

[kg4kww]

Joe - That badge cracked me up too! My first inclination was that it was for the Joe Friday types.

If the ARRL would stop telling the FCC to hold back on the code issues and pay more attention to getting rid of code and do more to support NCT's and drop the ring prices, I and other might be interested.

[K3UD]

Quote[/b] (N3PAQ @ Aug. 07 2006,09:22)]Quote[/b] (K3UD @ Aug. 07 2006,07:19)]73
George
K3UD

73
George
K3UD
Must have heard it on the long path too http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

That badge cracked me up!

73
Joe
N3PAQ
Just a LDE http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

73
George
K3UD

[WZ4I]

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Aug. 07 2006,11:04)]Joe - That badge cracked me up too! My first inclination was that it was for the Joe Friday types.

If the ARRL would stop telling the FCC to hold back on the code issues and pay more attention to getting rid of code and do more to support NCT's and drop the ring prices, I and other might be interested.
Anyone who’s had the time to post more than 5700 articles or replies in 3 years on QRZ, has had ample time to learn CW. But you don’t seem “interested”.

[ab8ro]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ Aug. 06 2006,08:27)]That was mighty nice of you to send it back. #When someone sends me something unsolicited, I use the postage paid return to send them a thank-you note. #

Anything sent unsolicited is a gift requiring no further action on the part of the recipient. #That's the law in the US.
Yep, it sure was. I wouldn't have sent it back either. I had a book club that went out of business before fullfiling my initial order try that on me once. They sold their membership to another inferior book club and tried to claim that I was now a member of this new book club. The books were junk though, not a lovely coin I could sell for hard cash on the bay. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] ]Anyone who’s had the time to post more than 5700 articles or replies in 3 years on QRZ, has had ample time to learn CW. But you don’t seem “interested”.
Oh, he's interested.
He's just not interested in doing the paltry amount work neccesary. Just what we need more of on HF. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[ab8ro]

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 06 2006,08:46)]Joe - That badge cracked me up too! My first inclination was that surely no one would actually purchase one of those, but then the reality sank in that obviously someone must! Sad and humorous at the same time.

Hey, if it helps hold dues down, well then good for those of us who aren't faced with increases!

Mike
Just read the endorsements down at the bottom of the page, priceless.

Quote[/b] ]
I ordered two ham radio operator badges - one for myself and one for my son. Perfect for amateur radio emergency service. Heavy weight, high quality with sharp engraving, they help to give a professional appearance and quick ID. I highly recommend them.


Poor kid. He'll never get a date.

[kg4kww]

Ham Cops, Great.

[kg4kww]

How many of you have ordered rings?

Be honest now!!!

[N5PVL]

Didn't they used to give away an ARRL pocket protector?

[ka0gkt]

IIRC, this is nothing new. #I remember way back when that Jostens offered a "Class Ring" through the ARRL.

Pocket Protectors RULE! do an on-line search for pocket protector. We've just ordered a few for the Engineering staff at the public broadcast station where I work...we're attempting to design a wire to curl our neckties like Dilbert's...however, the boss won't make his hair pointy! (we have pointed out that Pointy-hair is a state of mind)

73 DE KAØGKT/7

--Steve

[N4QX]

Quote[/b] (KI4NGN @ Aug. 07 2006,05:20)]Is it possible that they try things like these rings (which made me laugh when I received the email) as alternatives to raising membership dues?
This is precisely why things like this are trie by a number of organizations.

Hey, if it's somebody's cup of tea, and they want a ring, fine by me. It's not my cup of tea, though. I prefer to give money via the Diamond Club each year. My membership is worth that much to me, and I don't need any trinkets to make it more worthwhile.

If you mileage or spirit of generosity varies, that's fine. We're free to make our own calls.

[ky5u]

For those who can't see the link....

[K9STH]

Both the badges and rings have been around for decades. It is just that occasionally some organization will revive them as a money making project and they come to the forefront again.

Josten's (and a couple of other high school / college class ring companies) are always looking for additional markets for their wares.

I still have my high school class ring and my college class ring. My wife still has her high school class ring. But, those are in a display case along with my fraternity pin (and a whole lot of additional items). I wore the high school class ring my senior year in high school and for a little while in college. Since the design was not the usual "knuckle buster" type no one realized that it was a high school ring. I wore my college ring starting when I was a sophomore (you could get your class ring starting your 2nd year) until I graduated. Then wore it a couple of years after graduating since most of the college graduates around Collins Radio (at least at the "new" corporate headquarters in Richardson, Texas) wore them. After I left Collins Radio I got where I didn't wear it much.

Now if we are attending some alumni function or something similar I do get the ring out of the display case and wear it that day. Otherwise, it just gathers dust!

There always has been a faction within amateur radio that goes "ape" over things like rings. Years ago there were tie clasps that had things like hand keys on them or your call sign. I get all sorts of small tie tack items whenever I attend some industry show. Some of these are actually quite "cute" and I do wear them from time to time. The others just go in a jewlry box and are basically forgotten.

Glen, K9STH

[ab8ro]

I confess. I have a tie tack that is a tiny functional slide rule. The slide actually moves and with a magnifying glass you can perform calculations.

No, it's not for sale.

[WA2ZDY]

The idea of the ring isn't the bad part. #I think amateur radio is a fraternity worthy of being "shown off." #But show it off reasonably. #Not with a police badge (I wore a badge for 24 years. #I cannot imagine . . . ) # #And not with a chinzy cheap looking piece of junk like those rings appear to be. #And at those insane prices??? Oh my gosh, show me the fools who buy them and I'll sell them dipoles by the gross.

And Charlie, that pic is hysterical. You owe my wife a new monitor and me a Diet Coke!

[n6hcm]

hrm. does the arrl have some sort of annual report so people can see if these initiatives really work?

(yes, just checked--there is an annual report ... so we'll have to wait until next year at least for a hint on how well this sort of thing works for them. but, hey ... 47 directors on the board. all i can say about that is *wow!*)

[N5LRZ]

I am just wondering how many of those who posted with outrage at the concept as stated in the original post have stated the exact same outrage with all the not so cheap trinkets that the gasoline and general credit card companies push at we consumers:

Buy this sterio for only 4 payments of ..... on your gas card
Buy this fancy telephone for a one time payment of .... to be added to your gas credit card.
Buy this incredibly ugly fake diamond ring for only 10 payments of .... to be included on your credit card.

Or could it be the source and not the ring itself.

LOL, and while the rings are not exactly the most eye catching designs at least they are considerably better than that amateur radio badge that looks like a law enforcement badge. Now that (the badge) is in bad taste.

N5LRZ
R Arceneaux

[ab8ro]

N5LRZ,

I can't speak for others, but I have no beef with the ARRL. I don't buy any of that crap from credit card companies either. While I didn't bother to spend too much money for either high school or college class rings I think that they at least represent something. And that is where I take issue. By selling rings there is this implied connection to the tradition of class rings which commemorate graduation.

I would ,for instance, not take issue with a tie tack or a tie bar, or lapel pin. I still wouldn't purchase one, but it wouldn't carry any more significance than a company tie tack or a club lapel pin.

Those rings look just like class rings. Selling them just promotes the inflated sense of self some hams have because they are hams. In my opinion they are no different from the badges they just satisfy a slightly different crowd. The badge crowd has an inflated sense of authority and the ring crowd has an inflated sense of achievement. Badges are for officers of the law and represent some kind of legitimate authority. Class rings are for commorating graduation and recognize legitimate academic achievement.

Lapel pins are what you wear to show affiliations and minor achievements. It is simply undignified to attempt to co-opt the meaning of accomplishment that is intrinsically tied to the class ring for the purpose of filling the coffers at the ARRL.

That's why I find it embarrassing.

[N9LCD]

Has the League (or any organization, for that matter) ever thought of doing what all of us have to do when there isn't
enough coming in?

SPEND LESS!!!

[W0LPQ]

Does not matter who it is ... I get them all the time from the Shrine, AOPA, EAA and so on ... if you don't want it, ignore it..!

Simple.

Bill, W0LPQ

[KD6NIG]

The badges/rings will be popular with the same crowd that goes to the local fairs and supposedly buys real police badges for collecting.

Ok, well most of the people buy them for collecting. I know a few don't do that though. I've seen guys there with collections of badges that they could 'personalize' for you for basically any purpose.

That means even Joe CB'r could get himself a nifty badge...if hes willing to pay the price.

And thanks for posting the picture, my work firewall wouldn't let me follow the link http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ab8ro]

Well most of the badge buyers from that website were touting how professional the badges were and how great they were for ID. I didn't get the sense that they were collecting.

[AC0H]

Quote[/b] ]Well most of the badge buyers from that website were touting how professional the badges were and how great they were for ID. I didn't get the sense that they were collecting.
Please God, don't let one of these badge wearing Ecomms sheriff's show up at a disaster site flashing those things like a junior G man.

[k2vhw]

:rock: 5PVL,
It has to be recognized that the 'smaller.....trimmer' organizations you speak about would be lesser able to deal with the dynamic pressures presented by our Federal Government and big money industries. The spectrum frenzy would eat us up like piranha fish would. A large and supported (money and votes) organization is keeping us from total disaster. Without the ARRL, I am afraid to say, we would be reduced to CB style/channelized operations with limited power and very limited spectrum!!!:rock:

[k2vhw]

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif N5PVL,
One additional note. If one person complains about something to a politician, a likely patronizing letter is the only reply and effect. But if the majority of, say, Texans wrote to that politician complaining; you can bet your last nickel something would get done!! SIZE MATTERS!!

73,
Marvin:p

[KC5SAS]

Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Aug. 07 2006,07:06)]Quote[/b] (N3PAQ @ Aug. 07 2006,00:41)]I thought to myself, who is going to buy these?
Probably the same people who buy these!

badge (http://ssl.maxsell.com/productdetails.aspx?productID=2011)

Scott NØIU
I got mine. #http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/7290/hambadgemq8.jpg #Woowhoo. Anyone who doesn't like it can bite me. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[N2ACX]

Whew!!
$568.00 for 14K, yellow gold, Holy Smokes! Not a chance. That money would be going for something more worthwhile than a ring....like for next years tank of gas.

http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif 73 N2ACX

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ Aug. 07 2006,15:12)]The idea of the ring isn't the bad part. I think amateur radio is a fraternity worthy of being "shown off." But show it off reasonably. Not with a police badge (I wore a badge for 24 years. I cannot imagine . . . ) And not with a chinzy cheap looking piece of junk like those rings appear to be. And at those insane prices??? Oh my gosh, show me the fools who buy them and I'll sell them dipoles by the gross.

And Charlie, that pic is hysterical. You owe my wife a new monitor and me a Diet Coke!
Sorry Chris. I must admit I love the "whacker" pictures on HamSexy. I could even understand the ring, but the badge only adds to the whacker image.

[KA8NCR]

Quote[/b] (KC5SAS @ Aug. 08 2006,13:32)]Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Aug. 07 2006,07:06)]Quote[/b] (N3PAQ @ Aug. 07 2006,00:41)]I thought to myself, who is going to buy these?
Probably the same people who buy these!

badge (http://ssl.maxsell.com/productdetails.aspx?productID=2011)

Scott NØIU
I got mine. http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/7290/hambadgemq8.jpg Woowhoo. Anyone who doesn't like it can bite me. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
You certainly don't look too happy about getting yours.

Usually, a look like that is indicative of a very impending prostate exam.

[ab8ma]

Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Aug. 08 2006,16:02)]Well most of the badge buyers from that website were touting how professional the badges were and how great they were for ID. I didn't get the sense that they were collecting.
I wonder if some who purchase those badges wear them during split operations on 14.195 #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[KF0RT]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Aug. 07 2006,14:03)]For those who can't see the link....
That's effing hilarious! Kudos to the PS maestro...

And y'know... if they actually sold that NCT ring, they might be on to something. $14.95 going once.... http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

73, Rob

[n7rjd]

Quote[/b] (kg4kww @ Aug. 07 2006,05:53)]Ham Cops, Great.
Next thing you know they'll be telling people to grab their handheld and go looking for escaped felons.

[ab8ro]

Quote[/b] (ka8ncr @ Aug. 07 2006,15:05)]Quote[/b] (KC5SAS @ Aug. 08 2006,13:32)]Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Aug. 07 2006,07:06)]Quote[/b] (N3PAQ @ Aug. 07 2006,00:41)]I thought to myself, who is going to buy these?
Probably the same people who buy these!

badge (http://ssl.maxsell.com/productdetails.aspx?productID=2011)

Scott NØIU
I got mine. #http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/7290/hambadgemq8.jpg #Woowhoo. #Anyone who doesn't like it can bite me. #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
You certainly don't look too happy about getting yours.

Usually, a look like that is indicative of a very impending prostate exam.
I think that's his bathroom. We're looking at an action shot. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[kf4lne]

When you get shot carrying that badge, I will dance merrily on your grave.

[kg4kww]

Quote ]kf4lne-When you get shot carrying that badge, I will dance merrily on your grave.

kf4lne, grave dancing is not allowed. The departed have earned their right to peace and quite.

Yep these ring prices are a joke just like the ARRL's stance on getting the FCC to change the code upgrade requirement.

I have seen stiffs that look better than this.

[/b]

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/7290/hambadgemq8.jpg

[k2vhw]

aw, C'mon fellers; the 'badge' is intended as a display conversation piece.............not really to wear! I'd be wary of the police pulling someone in for impersonating a police officer. Too much 'violence' out there to walk around with the badge; you just might GET shot (KF4LNE).

Marv, K2VHW:p

[KC5SAS]

Quote[/b] (kf4lne @ Aug. 08 2006,19:03)]When you get shot carrying that badge, I will dance merrily on your grave.
I've worn a badge 48 hours a week for years and never had a problem. Doubt a speciality ham badge will make it happen. You must live in a bad part of town or something.

[ab8ro]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 07 2006,23:06)]aw, C'mon fellers; the 'badge' is intended as a display conversation piece.............not really to wear! #I'd be wary of the police pulling someone in for impersonating a police officer. Too much 'violence' out there to walk around with the badge; you just might GET shot (KF4LNE).

Marv, K2VHW:p
Yeah, that's why everyone was raving about its high quality and how ideal it is for ID. Let me translate "high quality", that means, "looks like the real thing, especially from a distance." At least one excited customer bought the wallet to go with it. Is that so you can take it out at the diner and display it while you eat yer donuts and coffee? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[N5PVL]

- And that's how the tradition of giving free coffee and donuts to amateur radio operators got started.

If you don't have your badge, then you still gotta pay.

[W2LYS]

Badges? We don't need no steenkin' badges!

[ky5u]

Law and Order: SKU (Special Kerchunker Unit)

[KD6NIG]

Quote[/b] (KC5SAS @ Aug. 08 2006,22:06)]Quote[/b] (kf4lne @ Aug. 08 2006,19:03)]When you get shot carrying that badge, I will dance merrily on your grave.
I've worn a badge 48 hours a week for years and never had a problem. Doubt a speciality ham badge will make it happen. #You must live in a bad part of town or something.
Thats right, I wear one for a living too.

Now, if I went around with it and stated I was something other than what my badge said, sure, the possibility of a problem occuring would probably raise.

But I usually take mine off when I leave work, or as soon as I get home from work. Especially if I go somewhere else before I go home. I don't like walking into a store and people thinking I'm security for said store. If I can avoid it, I go home first and change, but with gas prices nowadays thats not always feasible. So, if I don't want to backtrack 5 miles, I just take everything off the uniform that I can, or wear a plain jacket if the weather suffices.

Course, if I walked in with my badge on and stated I was a cop, the reaction I get would be justified since I'm....NOT. Duh!

Perhaps they need to do with those badges as they do with toy guns with the orange piece on them. The biggest lettering on them should state: I AM NOT A POLICE OFFICER.

[ky5u]

ARRL Fundraising announces new ARRL Fitness Center!

[WA2ZDY]

You did it again Charlie!

I was a correction officer in NJ for almost 25 years. In NJ correction officers are sworn peace officers. Guns, handcuffs (outside the prison, including off-duty,) the works. We had a locker room at the prison for a reason. We didn't want to be identified as cops after work. There's nothing like feeling like you have a bullseye painted on your back.

Most police stations have locker rooms for the same reason. Cops keep their off duty weapons concealed, etc. They don't want you to know they're cops. For good reason.

So these wackers running around with fake badges . . . what's the point? What could the motivations be? I can think of two and both are dangerous.

[WB2WIK]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Aug. 09 2006,10:00)]ARRL Fundraising announces new ARRL Fitness Center!
And all the healthy hams taking the escalator...

[kf4lne]

That fitness center appears to have been jointly developed by the ARRL and NCI

[WB2WIK]

The rings aren't bad.

Kinda remind me of my Class Ring from Sam Houston Institute of Technology...

[N2RJ]

So are these rings "for ID"? http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ky5u]

Just released today!

New Ham Radio Spirit Salve that you rub on the part of the body that ails you to get a big LIFT in spirit!

[WA2ZDY]

Damn Charlie . . .

[kf4lne]

I'll take two!

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ Aug. 10 2006,12:33)]Damn Charlie . . .
Just a few fundraiser ideas for the League...

[ab8ro]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Aug. 08 2006,11:00)]ARRL Fundraising announces new ARRL Fitness Center!
Ha, that picture is fake. You know how I know? Cause there are people going in. If it were really an ARRL fitness center all we'd see is people running away as fast as their chubby legs could carry them.

[ky5u]

How about ARRL Valentine's Day Cards?

[N9LCD]

TO K2VHW:

I did not intend to advocate a smaller, slimmed-down League. I'm advocating a more efficient and, consequently, more effective League.

Because of my educational and work background, I've been drafted about six or eight times to serve as treasurer of a non-profit organization. No crooked deals or double-dipping, but a heck of a lot inefficiency and outright stupidity.

TYPICAL LOGIC: They're a big giver, so we have to give them some business. The group in question was getting about $1,000 from this business/owner. Unfortunately, they were giving $2,500 back by buying over-priced printing and mailing services! Not the worst, but typical.

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (N9LCD @ Aug. 11 2006,17:34)]TO K2VHW:

I did not intend to advocate a smaller, slimmed-down League. #I'm advocating a more efficient and, consequently, more effective League.

Because of my educational and work background, I've been drafted about six or eight times to serve as treasurer of a non-profit organization. #No crooked deals or double-dipping, but a heck of a lot inefficiency and outright stupidity.

TYPICAL LOGIC: #They're a big giver, so we have to give them some business. #The group in question was getting about $1,000 from this business/owner. #Unfortunately, they were giving $2,500 back by buying over-priced printing and mailing services! #Not the worst, but typical.
Any venture starts out 'small, neat and trim'. As the process grows the bureacracy develops. There is no venture that stays 'neat and trim' beyond a point in its growth.
The real problem is that when we try to 're-invent' the venture we syphon off valuable asset(s); we dilute the power and effect we originally intended!
If we dissolve the original venture and try anew we lose the power and effect (for at least a while). In that interim we lose the target and fail at the task!
Let's support what we have in the ARRL and work from within (en masse) to correct inefficiencies.
United we will stand.......divided we WILL fall!

73,
Marv K2VHW

[w5alt]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 11 2006,21:36)]Any venture starts out 'small, neat and trim'. As the process grows the bureacracy develops. There is no venture that stays 'neat and trim' beyond a point in its growth.
That's only true if the organization is static and doesn't respond to changes - like the ARRL. Most other organizations either 1) stay focused and don't grow past their capabilities, 2) find out how to respond to changing environment and stay at least "neat and trim", or 3) become extinct.

Quote[/b] ]The real problem is that when we try to 're-invent' the venture we syphon off valuable asset(s); we dilute the power and effect we originally intended!
In this case, re-inventing isn't a problem - what valuable assests do you see that would suffer from being diluted? It seems to me that their power and effectiveness is pretty much non-existent, except in Newington's own minds. As far as their actual effect, declining membership seems to summarize that pretty well and I don't care if they change that effect. So I see no real problem with trying to re-invent Newington.

Quote[/b] ]If we dissolve the original venture and try anew we lose the power and effect (for at least a while). In that interim we lose the target and fail at the task!
Since they haven't hit the target in quite some time and have failed many members, the interim is long overdue. The power hasn't accomplished anything significant and the effect has been to continue losing members. I really don't care if we lose that "power and effect".

Quote[/b] ]Let's support what we have in the ARRL and work from within (en masse) to correct inefficiencies.
United we will stand.......divided we WILL fall!
And what is it that we have? An organization that won't openly poll or communicate with members, can't get anything through the FCC, is losing membership at a steady pace, won't provide details of how they spend contributions, etc.

And how do you propose to correct the inefficiencies? Who in Newington is listening to you? What about getting them in touch with members again? I was taught that without a plan, you don't really have anything but words and assorted verbiage. I can get plenty of that from the ARRL spin stories.

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Aug. 11 2006,19:12)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 11 2006,21:36)]Any venture starts out 'small, neat and trim'. As the process grows the bureacracy develops. There is no venture that stays 'neat and trim' beyond a point in its growth.
That's only true if the organization is static and doesn't respond to changes - like the ARRL. Most other organizations either 1) stay focused and don't grow past their capabilities, 2) find out how to respond to changing environment and stay at least "neat and trim", or 3) become extinct.

Quote[/b] ]The real problem is that when we try to 're-invent' the venture we syphon off valuable asset(s); we dilute the power and effect we originally intended!
In this case, re-inventing isn't a problem - what valuable assests do you see that would suffer from being diluted? It seems to me that their power and effectiveness is pretty much non-existent, except in Newington's own minds. As far as their actual effect, declining membership seems to summarize that pretty well and I don't care if they change that effect. So I see no real problem with trying to re-invent Newington.

Quote[/b] ]If we dissolve the original venture and try anew we lose the power and effect (for at least a while). In that interim we lose the target and fail at the task!
Since they haven't hit the target in quite some time and have failed many members, the interim is long overdue. The power hasn't accomplished anything significant and the effect has been to continue losing members. I really don't care if we lose that "power and effect".

Quote[/b] ]Let's support what we have in the ARRL and work from within (en masse) to correct inefficiencies.
United we will stand.......divided we WILL fall!
And what is it that we have? An organization that won't openly poll or communicate with members, can't get anything through the FCC, is losing membership at a steady pace, won't provide details of how they spend contributions, etc.

And how do you propose to correct the inefficiencies? Who in Newington is listening to you? What about getting them in touch with members again? I was taught that without a plan, you don't really have anything but words and assorted verbiage. I can get plenty of that from the ARRL spin stories.

73,
Walt, W5ALT
It's the 'defeatist' attitude, such as the one I see in your posts, that is the 'cause-and-effect' of what it is you complain!
It is the ' let THEM do it' concept that is the problem I read in your posts.
I have posted the following before and here again; if one person writes a politician with a complaint all you'll get is a patronizing letter. If all the people of, say Texas, writes a complaint you can bet your last nickel something will get done!
Apparently the 'problem' is less than that of which you propose! But dropping membership and complaining from outside the organization will get you nothing.
You certainly have legitimate issues...........stay in there and get support from MEMBERS. In numbers not individuals. Don't simply wait until asked/polled.
Lastly, remember that it is difficult to raise capital in enough amounts to do battle in Washington. Don't put down ARRL's various attempts to raise money for the task at hand unless you have a solution that's better.

73,
Marv, K2VHW http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[w5alt]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 12 2006,23:26)]It's the 'defeatist' attitude, such as the one I see in your posts, that is the 'cause-and-effect' of what it is you complain!
It is the ' let THEM do it' concept that is the problem I read in your posts.
Really? You think my attitude has more to do with increasing discontent and decreasing membership in the ARRL than their policies and proposals? Wow!

Quote[/b] ]I have posted the following before and here again; if one person writes a politician with a complaint all you'll get is a patronizing letter. If all the people of, say Texas, writes a complaint you can bet your last nickel something will get done!
Apparently the 'problem' is less than that of which you propose! But dropping membership and complaining from outside the organization will get you nothing.
If I were outside the organization, I would have no basis for complaint. It's the ARRL that has a problem with dropping membership, not the non-members. So how many more need to quit before the message gets to Newington?

Quote[/b] ]Lastly, remember that it is difficult to raise capital in enough amounts to do battle in Washington. Don't put down ARRL's various attempts to raise money for the task at hand unless you have a solution that's better.
If you look at the track record, the last few proposals the ARRL has made to the FCC concerning amateur radio have been shot down by commenters with no capital in Washington. We'll see what the final decisions are on the pending stuff, but I don't expect a much higher success rate.

Sorry, but the time for rose colored glasses seems to have passed. It's time for the ARRL to earn back the respect of amateurs, if they have a desire to do so.

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[k2vhw]

Walt,
There is no intent on my part to villify anyone (least of all you). But my point in all this is that so many people point fingers and complain but don't act. For those who simply 'drop out' solves nothing. Pulling support makes any work to be done much more difficult. It takes money to have people represent the ARRL in Washington. It takes money, more so, to battle the big money interests. The ARRL will not be successful at every attempt we make. Politics being what it is.
I will never be accused of failing to listen to any viewpoint from my own. Why not jot down your ideas to improve the ARRL and send it to me e-mail? I need to see specific recommendations that differ from what the ARRL is doing currently.But if YOU feel that YOU have workable ideas then get to your division leadership (SM & Director) and get the word to the BOARD OF DIRECTORS.
There are always alternatives to solve problems;should you hit on some you will have done amateur radio and ARRL a great service.
That having been said, don't lose sight of the fact that it takes money to do the work. In the effort to keeping the dues to a reasonable level other means of revenues are employed. Not anything unlike Girl Scouts selling cookies!
So I take umbrage, the comments bantered about that ridicule the ARRL leadership for fundraising. Such as selling greeting cards or videos et.cet. (The VFW, The American Legion, et.cet.)
Likewise, to all those who simply 'jump-ship'.

73,
Marvin
P.S. Please send me your ideas........I can learn too!!

[ky5u]

Fund raiser idea that says it all:

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 14 2006,12:10)]Walt,
There is no intent on my part to villify anyone (least of all you). But my point in all this is that so many people point fingers and complain but don't act. #For those who simply 'drop out' solves nothing. Pulling support makes any work to be done much more difficult. #It takes money to have people represent the ARRL in Washington. It takes money, more so, to battle the big money interests. #The ARRL will not be successful at every attempt we make. Politics being what it is.
I will never be accused of failing to listen to any viewpoint from my own. Why not jot down your ideas to improve the ARRL and send it to me e-mail? #I need to see specific recommendations that differ from what the ARRL is doing currently.But if YOU feel that YOU have workable ideas then get to your division leadership (SM & Director) and get the word to the BOARD OF DIRECTORS. #
There are always alternatives to solve problems;should you hit on some you will have done amateur radio and ARRL a great service.
That having been said, don't lose sight of the fact that it takes money to do the work. #In the effort to keeping the dues to a reasonable level other means of revenues are employed. Not anything unlike Girl Scouts selling cookies!
So I take umbrage, the comments bantered about that ridicule the ARRL leadership for fundraising. #Such as selling greeting cards or videos et.cet. (The VFW, The American Legion, et.cet.)
Likewise, to all those who simply 'jump-ship'.

73,
Marvin
P.S. Please send me your ideas........I can learn too!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Something I almost forgot to express.
Who/what IS the ARRL?
The ARRL is US. We are the ARRL. It isn't a non-descript back room filled with old men...........it is US.
Its leadership is a collection of fellow amateurs elected by amateurs to lead. But the ARRL IS US. If change is indeed needed then WE must do it COLLECTIVELY.
We cannot simply complain and wait for someone else to act. If the MAJORITY of its members decide change is needed then the membership must do it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Marvin

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Aug. 14 2006,12:38)]Fund raiser idea that says it all:
Charlie,
I see you still have your sarcastic sense of 'broadcaster's humor'!
I, too, am a broadcast engineer (retired now) so I know your type. I've seen this type of humor on public toilet walls and graffito too.
I can only guess that you don't buy Girl Scout cookies either; since it is a fundraiser.
Pardon me in all of this but I have not seen any constructive comments that would lead to a better way. Only negative banter.
Alas, you are still entitled to your opinion. Only the majority doesn't seem to agree.

73
Marvin
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 14 2006,13:07)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Aug. 14 2006,12:38)]Fund raiser idea that says it all:
Charlie,
I see you still have your sarcastic sense of 'broadcaster's humor'!
I, too, am a broadcast engineer (retired now) so I know your type. I've seen this type of humor on public toilet walls and graffito too.
I can only guess that you don't buy Girl Scout cookies either; since it is a fundraiser.
Pardon me in all of this but I have not seen any constructive comments that would lead to a better way. Only negative banter.
Alas, you are still entitled to your opinion. Only the majority doesn't seem to agree.

73
Marvin
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Thanks for the reminder that you're better then I am. I had almost forgotten.

[w5alt]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 14 2006,15:10)]I will never be accused of failing to listen to any viewpoint from my own. Why not jot down your ideas to improve the ARRL and send it to me e-mail? I need to see specific recommendations that differ from what the ARRL is doing currently.But if YOU feel that YOU have workable ideas then get to your division leadership (SM & Director) and get the word to the BOARD OF DIRECTORS.
Marvin, the ideas and suggestions have been made many times by more than me. The solution to the ARRL's current problem is fairly simple, in my opinion and others.

1) Conduct polls of membership and amateurs at large to find out what they will really support before making policy changes and regulatory proposals.
2) Make the general results of the polls public to prove they are listening, since too many people don't seem to believe they are.
3) Make more detailed accounting records available for membership scrutiny. Interested parties should pay for copying costs and detailed expense accounting is not required. Something like $XX was contributed to fund YY and it was spent on the following items: a, b, c, etc. Not just $XX was contributed to fund YY and was transferred to the general fund.

There are more, but those would go a long way for starters.

Quote[/b] ]There are always alternatives to solve problems;should you hit on some you will have done amateur radio and ARRL a great service.
That having been said, don't lose sight of the fact that it takes money to do the work. In the effort to keeping the dues to a reasonable level other means of revenues are employed. Not anything unlike Girl Scouts selling cookies!
So I take umbrage, the comments bantered about that ridicule the ARRL leadership for fundraising. Such as selling greeting cards or videos et.cet. (The VFW, The American Legion, et.cet.)
I have no problem with the ARRL raising funds - as long as the funds I choose to contribute are used for things I support. If others want to support other things, that's up to them.

I have personally asked ARRL to provide me the same information that other charities provide as a matter of course. So far, it hasn't even warranted a response, so I figure either 1) they don't know how they spend funds, 2) they don't want my money very badly, or 3) they don't want me to know how they spend funds. Thus, my charitable contributions go to organizations that do provide information. That could easily change, if the ARRL wants it to.

Quote[/b] ]Who/what IS the ARRL?
The ARRL is US. We are the ARRL. It isn't a non-descript back room filled with old men...........it is US.
Its leadership is a collection of fellow amateurs elected by amateurs to lead. But the ARRL IS US. If change is indeed needed then WE must do it COLLECTIVELY.
We cannot simply complain and wait for someone else to act. If the MAJORITY of its members decide change is needed then the membership must do it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Actually the ARRL is about 20% (more or less) of U. S. amateurs. That's hardly a majority or a mandate. And it quite often does indeed seem much like a "non-descript back room filled with old men" which is a prime reason many people tell me they quit or won't join.

Your statement is pretty much what the ARRL says, but it seems people aren't buying that story any longer. I would agree if you told me they seem to have an image problem, but the solution is to change the image, not point fingers at the majority of amateurs who want no part of ARRL.

You might also note that the Girl Scouts do provide information on where their funds go. Personally I buy all the choclate mints cookies I can, because I agree with what the Girl Scouts does and I also like chocolate mint cookies.

And, FYI, I am a Life Member of ARRL.

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[K5FH]

Do you think of yourself as a "League member" or as a "QST subscriber?" In the case of QST I think we're getting overcharged for what we're getting.

QST is becoming nothing more than a monthly catalog of advertisements with a few (VERY few) technical articles thrown in. The more complicated technical articles are usually advertisements for some specialized components or kit that the author of the article is selling (i.e., pre-programmed PIC microcontrollers). Some are written by employees of the company that, coincidentally, makes and the major components used in the project. It's enough to make you wonder.

This is not to say that QST should try to emulate the old 73 Magazine ("How to add a pilot light to your dummy load") but should try to find a balance between the sublime and the ridiculously complicated because the declining quality of QST is alienating a lot of League members.

[N9LCD]

W5ALT:

Walt, if the League is a tax-exempt organization and registered with the Internal Revenue, they may be legally required required to provide you with financial information.

Several years ago I was the treasurer of a non-profit arts group registered with the IRS. We wer required to file an information (not tax) return on Form 990 each year we had more than $25,000 in revenue (regardless of sources) AND to provide a copy at no charge to anyone who requested it, member or not!

Whatever state the League is incorporated in may have its own disclosure and other requirements that apply to its non-profit organizations. (AG Elliott Spitzer vs Dick Grasso & the New York Stock Exchange!!!)

I would recommend a letter to the League,certified mail with a return receipt, requesting information. That way, if they don't provide the information they're required to provide, you at least have proof of your request!!!

73's

Jerry
N9LCD

[W5HTW]

As a law officer, at the end of the day, when I took off my gun, I took off my badge. No sense leaving a bull's eye on my chest (or belt) when I can't shoot back. Off duty, I never went anywhere looking like a cop. I sure as heck wouldn't want to start now!

As a ham radio operator, I would guess, when I took off my HT I would have to take off my badge?

Somehow, those badges smack of 1970s REACT.

Ed

[wa6itf]

Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Aug. 07 2006,07:06)]Probably the same people who buy these!

badge (http://ssl.maxsell.com/productdetails.aspx?productID=2011)

Scott NØIU
Hams carrying badges is not all that new. Back many years ago, when I was one of them thare "wet behind the ears whipper-snapper kid hams" in Brooklyn, I belonged to New York City RACES. Oh, about 1959 or 1960. Anyhow, back then, the city of N.Y. had a policy that anyone doing anything in any way connected to official city business carry a badge. So, at the tender age of about 17 or so, I was issued a silver coated stainless steel badge upon which was engraved my name and "tactical call sign" W2NEM 219. In the center was a small red-white and blue CD emblem of dynasties past.

Now, in those days I was WA2HVK and had no idea who W2NEM was -- much less than that there were at least 219 of him. But every time we held a drill or visited the then "ultra top secret Brooklyn RACES HQ" (it was the Cold War and therefore we were all sworn to secrecy as to its location) -- I proudly displayed my silver painted steel badge bearing the call letters W2NEM 219.

Now, 46 or 47 years later, that badge is still around -- some place. And, maybe the next time I visit "da Big Apple" Ill bring it along, take the subway over to the location of the "ultra top secret Brooklyn RACES HQ" and see if it still gets me access to the secret panel that leads through the secret passageway to the top secret stairwell that leads down to the air tight bunker where-in sat -- and maybe still sits -- a bright yellow 6 meter Gonset Communicator II, its green "eye tube" glowing and the transmit crystal switch set on 50.400 Mc. (It has to be Mc. MHz had not been invented yet!)

And if its still there, its likely turned on since the power "On-Off" switch was bad and someone had jumpered across it. A radio of the past, awaiting its destiny in a future that will never, ever come to it because its likely I am one of the very few who remember it was there.

As the great Steven Sondheim wrote for his Broadway show "Follies:" "Very young, but very old hat. Everybody needs to go through stages like that."

Or, in my case more like...:

"W2NEM 219 this is net control W2NEM 200. Are you ready to pass your required weekly piece of mundane practice traffic? W2NEM 200. Over."

"W2NEM 200 this is W2NEM 219. I will be ready in a moment. First I need to put on my official NYC silver painted RACES badge with the CD logo in the middle. W2NEM 200 this is W2NEM 219 with my badge now on and ready to proceed. Over."

de
WA6ITF

[ab8ro]

Quote[/b] (wa6itf @ Aug. 13 2006,23:47)]Quote[/b] (n0iu @ Aug. 07 2006,07:06)]Probably the same people who buy these!

badge (http://ssl.maxsell.com/productdetails.aspx?productID=2011)

Scott NØIU

I was issued a silver coated stainless steel badge upon which was engraved my name and "tactical call sign" W2NEM 219.

As some people like to say, Viva la differance!

That's not the same thing as buying one.

[K3UD]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 14 2006,14:49)]Who/what IS the ARRL?
The ARRL is US. We are the ARRL. It isn't a non-descript back room filled with old men...........it is US.
Its leadership is a collection of fellow amateurs elected by amateurs to lead. But the ARRL IS US. If change is indeed needed then WE must do it COLLECTIVELY.
We cannot simply complain and wait for someone else to act. If the MAJORITY of its members decide change is needed then the membership must do it. http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

Marvin
It almost seems that you are saying that you think the membership should reign in various actions of the ARRL board. In theory the membership IS the ARRL. In reality there seems to be a disconnect and the theory has become invalid.

I have been a member for more years than I care to remember and IMHO opinion the ARRL group in Newington is out of touch with the membership, although it could be that the membership is out of touch with the ARRL group in Newington. On the other hand a case can be made that the ARRL is out of touch with itself (if the membership is truely the ARRL).

The recent bandwidth RM proposal AND the ARRL's reply comments is stark evidence that either the hirearchy at Newington or the membership is way out of touch.

Somehow I do not think that it is the memberships fault that the ARRL has had a rather poor record with advancing their agenda with the FCC over the last several years. I am a member and I am not sure what their agenda is trying to accomplish for the membership.

73
George
K3UD

[w5alt]

Quote[/b] (N9LCD @ Aug. 14 2006,22:46)]Walt, if the League is a tax-exempt organization and registered with the Internal Revenue, they may be legally required required to provide you with financial information.

Several years ago I was the treasurer of a non-profit arts group registered with the IRS. We wer required to file an information (not tax) return on Form 990 each year we had more than $25,000 in revenue (regardless of sources) AND to provide a copy at no charge to anyone who requested it, member or not!
Hi, Jerry. Yes, they file the necessary paperwork to remain legal, but that really doesn't tell you much. For example, I would really, really like to contribute handsomely to the Spectrum Defense Fund (and have made some small contributions in the the past), since Spectrum Defense is a worthy activity to me. But I look at their statement and it says $XXX collected from the fund and $XXX transered to the general account.

Now, I know enough accounting to refrain from saying that they are illegal, but it certainly doesn't tell me what they consider Spectrum Defense. A simple statement that they spent $YY for legal representation, $ZZ for mailing, $AA for travel to Washington, etc. would be sufficient to convice the majority of reasonable people that they really are using the money for Spectrum Defense.

But transferring everything to their general fund certainly doesn't give the impression - right or wrong, legal or not - that they are really doing that. So until they answer my question or present at least that little bit of information, my contributions have been going to other organizations which do provide contributors with that information. The last two years I contributed money to several scholarship funds, the Visiting Nurses Association, and materials to several universities worldwide. They all were happy to provide a summary of the income and expenses related to my contributions. The ARRL is not.

As to the person who asked who is the ARRL:

When was the last time you heard someone refer to the ARRL as "us"? Everyone I know refers to it as "them." I think that is sad!

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[ky5u]

I am an ARRL member and will continue to be. I am saddened that the League seems to only represent the view of the digital elitists these days. I think this stems from two mistakes of "assumption":

1. Digital is the wave of the future
2. In order for amateur radio to survive, we need numbers.

Being in a communications industry, the "wave" of digital has washed past AR and out to sea. The "wave of the future" would have been a battle cry valid in 1980, not 2005. There is nothing wrong with digital modes and having fun using them. But the wideband digital applications being pushed on amateurs are out-dated, available from commercial sources in many cases, and inconsiderate of the vast majority of Amateurs.

Likewise the assumption that AR needs warm bodies is silly. Even if we assumed this was correct, we could make our growth numbers by simply "saving" those who never make it on the air! Making our tests easier is not the answer. Easier tests will not attract smarter people.

As Walt says, ARRL member polling could have set the Newington Clique straight right away. But they seem destined to accept the same BAD ADVICE from the digital elite and no coders. They abdicate the leadership role in Amateur Radio by not building the member concensus that polling would enable. I wish this was not the case.

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Aug. 15 2006,08:13)]I am an ARRL member and will continue to be. #I am saddened that the League seems to only represent the view of the digital elitists these days. #I think this stems from two mistakes of "assumption":

1. Digital is the wave of the future
2. In order for amateur radio to survive, we need numbers.

Being in a communications industry, the "wave" of digital has washed past AR and out to sea. #The "wave of the future" would have been a battle cry valid in 1980, not 2005. #There is nothing wrong with digital modes and having fun using them. #But the wideband digital applications being pushed on amateurs are out-dated, available from commercial sources in many cases, and inconsiderate of the vast majority of Amateurs.

Likewise the assumption that AR needs warm bodies is silly. #Even if we assumed this was correct, we could make our growth numbers by simply "saving" those who never make it on the air! #Making our tests easier is not the answer. #Easier tests will not attract smarter people.

As Walt says, ARRL member polling could have set the Newington Clique straight right away. #But they seem destined to accept the same BAD ADVICE from the digital elite and no coders. #They abdicate the leadership role in Amateur Radio by not building the member concensus that polling would enable. #I wish this was not the case.
It's simple. If amateur radio is to be saved from the politicos and huge money industries (telecommunications et.al.) it is going to require more of an impact and justification than 180,000 old men talking on SSB voice or CW. This 'impact' is going to (and does) cost MONEY. You can read all about the pressures being placed on these interests by ARRL. THE EFFORTS DON'T ALL SUCCEED because the interests are POWERFUL.
But unless you are content to losing spectrum and privileges to those money and power-brokers you'll have to find ways to finance this effort.
And while the ARRL membership may only contain 20% of the licensed amateurs in the USA, the ARRL is still of its members; it isn't a 'Haliburton Company' run by profit-motivated interest. It is simply that too few recognize the need to be united against the odds!
We simply cannot have an effective organization both divided and poor!
Furthermore, there is far greater interests among the 'newcomers' that involve digital modes and experimentation than middle-aged 'old-timers' sitting around talking on SSB or CW.
Now, if we don't realize that SIZE MATTERS, then we're not reading the cards right. We will never succeed in convincing those power/money brokers of amateur radio's need for spectrum with numbers like 20%!!!
For those who believe they have ideas to help; run for Directorship or SM office and be part of the process. We need action not finger-pointing. Let the membership in 'your division' determine if you are right. We simply cannot sit back and scream "let them do it"! 'Them' are us, WE are 'them'.

73,
Marvin
P.S. I, too, have been in the 'communications industry' since 1965 and I do read many of the trade journals. The 'grabbers' are just outside our door!!!
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Aug. 14 2006,13:40)].
Alas, you are still entitled to your opinion. Only the majority doesn't seem to agree.

73
Marvin
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Thanks for the reminder that you're better then I am. #I had almost forgotten.[/QUOTE]
No, I am not 'better than you' or anyone else. But some see the glass as 'half-empty'........I see it as 'half-full'!
You see, it's a matter of 'opinion'/viewpoint. To which we ARE entitled.

Marvin

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Aug. 14 2006,14:08)]Personally I buy all the choclate mints cookies I can, because I agree with what the Girl Scouts does and I also like chocolate mint cookies.

And, FYI, I am a Life Member of ARRL.

73,
Walt, W5ALT
Walt,
Now, on THIS we DO agree..............love those mint cookies!!!!


But, Walt, you know that with regard to 'selecting where the funds are spent'; we simply can't have an organization where 100,000 members can individually dictate on what issues 'their money' can be spent.
We don't do that in government because it would be impossible to function. Likewise, the ARRL simply wouldn't be effective on any issues if we could dictate individually where 'my donations' are or aren't spent.
In other words, if I prevent ARRL spending any money that I contribute on issues because they simply don't apply to me but might to many others; how can that be effective? If many others (but less than a majority) also do the same we'd have chaos.
We simply can't have the membership individually capable of telling the organization 'don't spend my contributions on this or that because I don't approve. Collectively, however, we do this by majority rule. I guess there aren't enough people writing/campaigning against ARRL decisions to effect change.
Those who drop out or refuse to be a member certainly wouldn't have validity to banter against the organization.
But, on the issues you make about 'disclosure'......this does bother me too.
I guess we live in an imperfect world!

73,
Marvin

[k2vhw]

Walt,
I just had an afterthought. What IF, those 80% of amateurs who are NOT members (because they don't agree with ARRL policy) become VOTING MEMBERS..........we could have a majority; right? WOW! We could actually make that 'change'!


Marvin

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 16 2006,22:47)]Walt,
I just had an afterthought. What IF, those 80% of amateurs who are NOT members (because they don't agree with ARRL policy) #become VOTING MEMBERS..........we could have a majority; right? WOW! We could actually make that 'change'!


Marvin
With THAT many people we could make Congress and FCC 'sit up and notice'!!

[K3UD]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 17 2006,00:47)]Walt,
I just had an afterthought. What IF, those 80% of amateurs who are NOT members (because they don't agree with ARRL policy) become VOTING MEMBERS..........we could have a majority; right? WOW! We could actually make that 'change'!


Marvin
How would you make that happen?

Unfortunately the ARRL has been experiencing a slow bleed of membership since at least 1997. I wonder if they have figured out exactly what is causing the bleed. I checked the FCC database this morning and the overall mumbers are ready to drop below 656,000 (from the all time high of 687,000 in 2003) It seems that as the numbers drop, so does the ARRL membership. That the membership churns is no surprise. The problem seems to be that they can not replace churned members even though there are likely 500,000+ hams who are not members but could be prospects. It is possible that whatever the ARRL's message is, it is not being received well by these 500,000 non members, but it also is not being received well by a portion of the existing membership.

What to do?

73
George
K3UD

[w5alt]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 17 2006,01:39)]But, Walt, you know that with regard to 'selecting where the funds are spent'; we simply can't have an organization where 100,000 members can individually dictate on what issues 'their money' can be spent.
Actually I do have the option of determining how my donations are spent. I do that by only donating to organizations that support things I agree with. I don't want to make the policy for various scholarship funds nor for the Visiting Nurses Association, but I darn sure can decide whether I give them money or not and I base that decision on whether they spend money on the things that I support.

Quote[/b] ]We don't do that in government because it would be impossible to function. Likewise, the ARRL simply wouldn't be effective on any issues if we could dictate individually where 'my donations' are or aren't spent.
Then why would they call it the "Spectrum Defense Fund" if it's not to be used only for "spectrum defense"? There are legal and accounting guidelines regarding that, you know. I'm not asking to determine where ever penny goes, just a summary showing that they indeed spend the money I'd donate for "Spectrum Defense" on ... you guessed it ... Spectrum Defense. What their accounting summary says is that they collect money for "Spectrum Defense and then transfer it into the general fund to do with as they please.

Quote[/b] ]In other words, if I prevent ARRL spending any money that I contribute on issues because they simply don't apply to me but might to many others; how can that be effective? If many others (but less than a majority) also do the same we'd have chaos.
We simply can't have the membership individually capable of telling the organization 'don't spend my contributions on this or that because I don't approve. Collectively, however, we do this by majority rule. I guess there aren't enough people writing/campaigning against ARRL decisions to effect change.
Have you read all the comments to the FCC on the ARRL proposals? How much more is needed before they get the message?

Quote[/b] ]Those who drop out or refuse to be a member certainly wouldn't have validity to banter against the organization.
Your argument is ridiculous. People have the right to express opinions and work for or against any group that affects them. And the policy of the ARRL does often affect most all amateurs. In fact they even claim the be "The National Organization for Amateur Radio." I don't support the Crypts. Does that mean I have no basis to complain about them unless I join?

Quote[/b] ]But, on the issues you make about 'disclosure'......this does bother me too.

I guess we live in an imperfect world!
Well, if it would bother the ARRL, they could go a long way towards mending fences. Doesn't it seem odd that both you and I are concerned and that membership is dropping, but Newington doesn't seem too worried?

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[K3UD]

Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Aug. 17 2006,08:10)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 17 2006,01:39)]But, Walt, you know that with regard to 'selecting where the funds are spent'; we simply can't have an organization where 100,000 members can individually dictate on what issues 'their money' can be spent.
Actually I do have the option of determining how my donations are spent. I do that by only donating to organizations that support things I agree with. I don't want to make the policy for various scholarship funds nor for the Visiting Nurses Association, but I darn sure can decide whether I give them money or not and I base that decision on whether they spend money on the things that I support.

Quote[/b] ]We don't do that in government because it would be impossible to function. Likewise, the ARRL simply wouldn't be effective on any issues if we could dictate individually where 'my donations' are or aren't spent.
Then why would they call it the "Spectrum Defense Fund" if it's not to be used only for "spectrum defense"? There are legal and accounting guidelines regarding that, you know. I'm not asking to determine where ever penny goes, just a summary showing that they indeed spend the money I'd donate for "Spectrum Defense" on ... you guessed it ... Spectrum Defense. What their accounting summary says is that they collect money for "Spectrum Defense and then transfer it into the general fund to do with as they please.

Quote[/b] ]In other words, if I prevent ARRL spending any money that I contribute on issues because they simply don't apply to me but might to many others; how can that be effective? If many others (but less than a majority) also do the same we'd have chaos.
We simply can't have the membership individually capable of telling the organization 'don't spend my contributions on this or that because I don't approve. Collectively, however, we do this by majority rule. I guess there aren't enough people writing/campaigning against ARRL decisions to effect change.
Have you read all the comments to the FCC on the ARRL proposals? How much more is needed before they get the message?

Quote[/b] ]Those who drop out or refuse to be a member certainly wouldn't have validity to banter against the organization.
Your argument is ridiculous. People have the right to express opinions and work for or against any group that affects them. And the policy of the ARRL does often affect most all amateurs. In fact they even claim the be "The National Organization for Amateur Radio." I don't support the Crypts. Does that mean I have no basis to complain about them unless I join?

Quote[/b] ]But, on the issues you make about 'disclosure'......this does bother me too.

I guess we live in an imperfect world!
Well, if it would bother the ARRL, they could go a long way towards mending fences. Doesn't it seem odd that both you and I are concerned and that membership is dropping, but Newington doesn't seem too worried?

73,
Walt, W5ALT
Most people, ARRL members and non members included, do not take the time to make phone calls, send emails, write letters or otherwise contact the ARRL or their division director concerning policy. What they do though is to drop out of the organization at renewal time and that should send a message to the ARRL that for some reason, they were not happy with the ARRL. There are other reasons that concern fixed incomes or health but I would think the main reason boils down to the Price/Value equation that goes along with ANY product in the market place. If you don't sense that the value is there, you don't buy it, or stop buying it when you feel the value for your dollar is slipping away.

I have to agree with Walt as it concerns sending money to the ARRL for very specific projects. I don't know how their accounting is done but if I sent money specifically for Spectrum Defense and then learned that it went into the general fund and it was spent for
some upgrade the the HQ building, I would not be happy.

Remember what happened to the Red Cross immediately after 9/11. They appealed to the country for donations to help the victims and their families. It turned out that they dipped into this fund and held back money for "other work". This created a lot of outrage and cost the Executive Director her job. I am sure it made others think a bit about donating in the future.

Locally we had a chapter of MADD set up an alcoholic begerage bar at a political lobbying function. When this was made public by the state wide newspaper there was tremendous outrage from people who were very regular donors to this MADD chapter. This was about 3 years ago and they are still trying to recover.

A few years ago the United Way (national) had the same problem.
soliciting donations for one thing and then squandering it on high living for the executives.

I hope that money raised by the ARRL for specific projects actually ends up funding those projects and I have no reason to doubt otherwise, but I would also like to see exactly how much money came in for the project in the fiscal year and how much was spent on specific line item expedatures related to the project.


73
George
K3UD

[KI4ITV]

Quote[/b] (K3UD @ Aug. 17 2006,00:19)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 17 2006,00:47)]Walt,
I just had an afterthought. What IF, those 80% of amateurs who are NOT members (because they don't agree with ARRL policy) become VOTING MEMBERS..........we could have a majority; right? WOW! We could actually make that 'change'!


Marvin
How would you make that happen?

Unfortunately the ARRL has been experiencing a slow bleed of membership since at least 1997. I wonder if they have figured out exactly what is causing the bleed. I checked the FCC database this morning and the overall mumbers are ready to drop below 656,000 (from the all time high of 687,000 in 2003) It seems that as the numbers drop, so does the ARRL membership. That the membership churns is no surprise. The problem seems to be that they can not replace churned members even though there are likely 500,000+ hams who are not members but could be prospects. It is possible that whatever the ARRL's message is, it is not being received well by these 500,000 non members, but it also is not being received well by a portion of the existing membership.

What to do?

73
George
K3UD
I am a fairly new license holder. But I have been around this hobby my whole life. I am not an ARRL member, yet. But, I do wish I could justify it. The dues seem high for such a large group. To me, the ARRL has turned their 'membership' into CUSTOMERS, and in this organization it has been recently proven that not even a customer is right, or even heard.
I had a very high regard for them, my father has been a member my whole life, but it looks like the game has changed and Newington has become something of a royal overseer, trying desperately to feed only itself.

They do need to change to stay a viable leader in the hobby. I'm keeping an open mind, I want them to be what they are supposed to be and not just join because I think I have to. There is great pressure out there among the clubs and other groups to join the ARRL for one reason or another.
Often, you here this; "The ARRL is the ONLY organized voice WE as amateurs have. You need to join!"
Well, I say so what, if their really doing such a poor job of representing us as a whole. Why pay them to keep on? It's almost as if they have to justify our privileges with being EMCOMS and New technology, so they are selling us down a road some of us have no desire to immerse ourselves in.
I won't go on...I believe you can see where I stand as a newer operator and lifetime observer.
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[wa3vjb]

Quote[/b] ]The ARRL is the ONLY organized voice WE as amateurs have.

I've seen versions of this for a long time, and the premise has become harder to accept with each passing year.

An organized group is no longer the ONLY way to achieve progressive rulemaking and/or regulatory protection.

Active, concerned individuals can do so thanks to the public electronic systems the FCC and other agencies use in crafting their decisions.

That's not to say a group cannot speak with a louder voice in such venues, but there's no guarantee that would be the end result.

In the case of the group in Newington, it has become all too easy to discredit their utterances as those of a special interest group.

Their actual, on-air participation in the hobby is at a very low level, which undercuts the ARRL's credibility as an active and informed organization to represent those their proposals would affect.

Their business day primarily consists of subscription publishing, lobbying to their own agenda, new equipment reviews, license testing administration, and, most recently, jewelry sales.

Hardly a strong pitch to use in recruiting support, paid or otherwise.

Their membership dropped another two percent according to their most recent annual report, covering 2005, and that's despite their efforts to hype the threat of internet over powerlines.

Methinks they're being spanked for supporting efforts to bring email over ham radio.


Paul/VJB

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 16 2006,21:49)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Aug. 14 2006,13:40)].
Alas, you are still entitled to your opinion. Only the majority doesn't seem to agree.

73
Marvin
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Thanks for the reminder that you're better then I am. I had almost forgotten.
No, I am not 'better than you' or anyone else. But some see the glass as 'half-empty'........I see it as 'half-full'!
You see, it's a matter of 'opinion'/viewpoint. To which we ARE entitled.

Marvin

I will say your opinions look more like platitudes and mantras without the benefit of careful thought. Examples?

1. If 149,000 girls can have a funded collegiate sports, if colleges fund only 87 men's wrestling teams NATIONALLY (less than 5k participants), if colleges support only 24 men's track teams NATIONALLY (less than 5k participants) why would you believe that 180,000 Americans of any age could not maintain Amateur Radio ESPECIALLY older Americans? All these teams lose money hand over fist, yet we have them for what reason? Yep, tradition, diversity, Title IX, whatever. If the League were on the ball they'd apply for AARP status and sue anyone taking our frequencies for age discrimination. ROFL!

2. Losing frequencies? The ARRL restructuring proposal would have decimated the bands above 2M, where the most spectrum grabbing is being done. There is 13MHz of spectrum between 2MHz and 15MHz or 13000kHz. The Ham bands is what, 1300kHz total of that or about 10%? Where are all the "power/money brokers" clamoring for the other 90% of HF spectrum?

3. I am not suggesting we ax the ARRL, that we make it STRONGER by having them listen to and represent their members' opinions more closely.

4. The reason the number of Amateurs is going down is nobody is doing anything to RETAIN them. The ARRL could easily sponser retainment programs offering local activities like repeater rag chews, FREE license renewals, events involving Echolink or IRLP... The greatest idea of the last 5 years was SKCC and it was an individual who came up with that idea, not the league.

Even so we could have 150k well trained old Amateurs, with a strong ARRL and support from other groups (AARP, Council on Aging, Twilight Wish Foundation etc.) and we'd be untouchable. This is not to say we restrict membership to older people, we simply take advantage of our demographics to be "recognized" by these groups.

Wasted my time here, right?

[KD6NIG]

After reading many of these comments, it almost seems like the game the ARRL is playing is not of one to win, but of one to survive and not to lose.

I mean, many theories seem to constantly be bantered about, but it seems like one of the following:

1) The ARRL has some high paid account that has told them, to survive, they have to retain X number of subscribers. Anything above that is surplus, and no worry. So until they get pretty close to the X number, they aren't worried about it. Member attrition just means less lobbying, more letter writing than face to face lobbying, etc.

2) The ARRL is somehow recieving funding from another source, and perhaps this is fueling thier current agendas. If this is the case, the membership will be ignored and isn't needed-anyone who belongs including myself is just padding the bank account.

3) The ARRL has some expert as stated in 1) above, and this expert predicts that membership won't fall below a certian number simply because of things like....
-Clubs. To be "ARRL affiliated" 50%+1 of the club members must be ARRL members, and most clubs won't give this up?
-The "Life" membership money has been budgeted correctly (see #4 below)

4) The life membership money has been deposited into a special account, and this money being properly managed has allowed them to continue to operate, and the memberships only pay for part of QST, and if they got into dire straits, they could simply discontinue QST and survive.

Sure, most of what I'm saying is far fetched. But if the ARRL itself was really in some kind of severe financial hardship, I'm sure we'd be hearing a lot more about it than a ring sale.

Most businesses can only survive if thier 'customers' are happy and continue to patronise them. In the past few years, the ARRL is starting to ignore its customers. Thats why I theorize that they somehow have a way of surviving-or thier eventual goal is to disband and shut down operations, because without a funding source thats exactly what they will be doing.

I did renew this year, but I can tell you that the decision to renew next January will be discussed before it happens or not with my wife who is also a Ham. If the ARRL continues in its current direction, its likely we will voice our displeasure by failing to mail the renewal check in.

[wa3vjb]

Quote[/b] ]voice our displeasure by failing to mail the renewal check in.
Joshua, this is not a failure.

This would be a conscious and affirmative decision to be part of the solution instead of the problem.

Please let your contact with Newington know you have placed them on probation for the next year's subscription, and why.

Paul/VJB

[n0jaa]

Looks like my high school class ring from 1982.

[WA2ZDY]

Quote[/b] (n0jaa @ Aug. 17 2006,16:01)]Looks like my high school class ring from 1982.
Makes me wish I'd gotten a class ring. It was much nicer looking and even in 2006 dollars was less expensive.

That ring is just cheap junk looking and the prices . . . I still can't get past them. Disgraceful. And what's worse, some hams, cheap as hams are, will buy them.

[ab8ro]

Quote[/b] ]The ARRL is the ONLY organized voice WE as amateurs have.

Not true, we have NCI (http://www.nocode.org/).

Flame away ladies, I have my asbestos underwear on and they're fully secured and doubly protected with a layer of heat resistant tiles. I got a great deal on those tiles second hand from NASA

[w5alt]

Quote[/b] (ab8ro @ Aug. 17 2006,19:51)]Quote[/b] ]The ARRL is the ONLY organized voice WE as amateurs have.

Not true, we have NCI (http://www.nocode.org/).
ROFL

[WA2ZDY]

What do I do? NCI doesn't represent me. Back to SPAR I guess.

[ab8ro]

Quote[/b] (WA2ZDY @ Aug. 16 2006,21:24)]What do I do? #NCI doesn't represent me. #Back to SPAR I guess.
What if they came out with a badge?

Would you join then?

But wait, what if they came out with a ring?

Now how much would you pay?

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Aug. 17 2006,09:57)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 16 2006,21:49)]Quote[/b] (AG4YO @ Aug. 14 2006,13:40)].
Alas, you are still entitled to your opinion. Only the majority doesn't seem to agree.

73
Marvin
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif #http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
Thanks for the reminder that you're better then I am. #I had almost forgotten.
No, I am not 'better than you' or anyone else. But some see the glass as 'half-empty'........I see it as 'half-full'!
You see, it's a matter of 'opinion'/viewpoint. To which we ARE entitled.

Marvin

I will say your opinions look more like platitudes and mantras without the benefit of careful thought. #Examples?

1. If 149,000 girls can have a funded collegiate sports, if colleges fund only 87 men's wrestling teams NATIONALLY (less than 5k participants), if colleges support only 24 men's track teams NATIONALLY (less than 5k participants) why would you believe that 180,000 Americans of any age could not maintain Amateur Radio ESPECIALLY older Americans? #All these teams lose money hand over fist, yet we have them for what reason? #Yep, tradition, diversity, Title IX, whatever. #If the League were on the ball they'd apply for AARP status and sue anyone taking our frequencies for age discrimination. #ROFL!

2. Losing frequencies? #The ARRL restructuring proposal would have decimated the bands above 2M, where the most spectrum grabbing is being done. #There is 13MHz of spectrum between 2MHz and 15MHz or 13000kHz. #The Ham bands is what, 1300kHz total of that or about 10%? #Where are all the "power/money brokers" clamoring for the other 90% of HF spectrum?

3. I am not suggesting we ax the ARRL, that we make it STRONGER by having them listen to and represent their members' opinions more closely.

4. The reason the number of Amateurs is going down is nobody is doing anything to RETAIN them. #The ARRL could easily sponser retainment programs offering local activities like repeater rag chews, FREE license renewals, events involving Echolink or IRLP... The greatest idea of the last 5 years was SKCC and it was an individual who came up with that idea, not the league.

Even so we could have 150k well trained old Amateurs, with a strong ARRL and support from other groups (AARP, Council on Aging, Twilight Wish Foundation etc.) and we'd be untouchable. #This is not to say we restrict membership to older people, we simply take advantage of our demographics to be "recognized" by these groups.

Wasted my time here, right?
No Charlie, not platitudes or mantra. What I am trying to convey in all this is that we will not be successful in controlling spectrum loss if amateur radio is split up into smaller factions. In the power circles that will effect amateur radio spectrum losses, we need a loud, clear voice. I said it before, SIZE MATTERS. What happens when small numbers respond to these power/money brokers is not effective.
Furthermore, it is apparent that not enough ARRL members are voicing their objections. Not enough ARRL members are acting through the election process within the grass-roots levels (Division, sections). Yes, if it is true that the MAJORITY disapproves of what the organization is doing and the leadership does not acquiesce; we have a substantial problem. But from reading all the board minutes I do not find a mass discontent from the rank-and-file. (Via the Division directors.)
Amateur radio simply cannot stand with a divided 'voice'.
A united frontal defense costs money. I have found (having been licensed and active since 1956) 'hams' to be tight-fisted when it regards spending money. So the ARRL has tried to 'adapt' and raise funds in various ways that are attractive to the multi-faceted amateur community.
I see this same approach in other groups I am involved such as 'THE AMERICAN LEGION, AARP, AOPA' etc.

Make no mistake about this, though, I am on the same side in this conflict; I want amateur radio to survive and thrive. Only a united effort will succeed.

73
Marvin http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[ky5u]

Quote[/b] ]ab8ro: What if they [NCI] came out with a badge?
For ARRL fundraising and to thank NCI members, a special badge:

[K3UD]

Charlie,

I think you just gave NCI a great idea for a fundraiser http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

73
George
K3UD

[w5alt]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 18 2006,11:24)]Make no mistake about this, though, I am on the same side in this conflict; I want amateur radio to survive and thrive. Only a united effort will succeed.
So, Marvin, what's your take on the unannounced STA that was issued last March for wideband tests on 6 meters and expires in a few weeks?

Am I the only one who knew nothing about it? What plans do they have for interference evaluation? Is Newington trying to jump on someone else's bandwagon without letting members know? Either I totally missed the mention of this from the ARRL or it sure sounds like closed door shenanigans to me.

See https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=74952&x=. and also the ARRL HSMM Committee Report at http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/ofdm_intro.html posted August 11th.

Nice move to get member confidence going and making a unified effort, wouldn't you say?

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[N9LCD]

K2VHW


Marvin:

ALL organizations are self-perpetuating, non-profits even more so. Every one I've been an officer in has always said, in one way or another, "Be good! Keep your mouth shut and don't rock the boat. And someday you might be the head ..." Board membership or office becomes a matter of status.

I've haven't seen many non-profits adapt, change and be more effective or efficient. If you get into trouble, just ask for more money from your supporters. And, if you ain't in trouble, ask for more money anyway. So somebody else doesn't get it!

We support a private high school. Once or twice a year they have a "FRIEND RAISER". The purpose -- building and strengthening relationships.

MAYBE IT'S TIME FOR THE LEAGUE TO CONSIDER A "FRIEND RAISER"!

Jerry
N9LCD

[N9LCD]

W5ALT

Walt:

I agree with you coimments regarding the transfer of funds from the "Spectrum Defense" fund to the "General" fund. To me, it's not only tacky, but unethical to use contributed funds for other than the purpose donated and accepted. And it may be illegal.

The most obvious question is "How do you define "for the intended purpose"?" I'd say it's anything directly tracable to and incurred for the intended purpose.

I think that the debatable area is "indirect costs", the League's general costs and overhead. How far down the list of general costs and overhead can you go in allocating expenses to a specific fund? Do you have records to support the allocations? What's the justification? Balancing the budget doesn't cut the mustard.

There are at least two mega-bucks pending court cases involving funds used for other than the purpose for which they were donated and accepted. One case involves over $400MM!!

Non-profits aren't necessarily any better than Enron. They're just more adept at getting better press and more sympathy.

Jerry
N9LCD

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Aug. 18 2006,17:14)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 18 2006,11:24)]Make no mistake about this, though, I am on the same side in this conflict; I want amateur radio to survive and thrive. Only a united effort will succeed.
So, Marvin, what's your take on the unannounced STA that #was issued last March for wideband tests on 6 meters and expires in a few weeks?

Am I the only one who knew nothing about it? What plans do they have for interference evaluation? Is Newington trying to jump on someone else's bandwagon without letting members know? Either I totally missed the mention of this from the ARRL or it sure sounds like closed door shenanigans to me.

See https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=74952&x=. and also the ARRL HSMM Committee Report at http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/ofdm_intro.html posted August 11th.

Nice move to get member confidence going and making a unified effort, wouldn't you say?

73,
Walt, W5ALT
Walt,
It seems, here, that you are simply 'hell-bent' to defend only ssb voice/cw communications enthusiasts. Your apparent 'disdain' for the current technology enthusiasts seems to loom in your comments.
Here is an example of where a growing interest and growing problem exists;

From: "marvin bronstein" <marvbrons@verizon.net>

Subject: how ham radio is viewed by poweful interests
Date: Sunday, August 20, 2006 10:23 AM


A quote from Computing Unplugged Magazine's article;

" Frankly, if it were just ham radio operators unable to play with
their toys, this debate would be a non-issue. Ham radio is really a
technology of the 20th Century. It was exciting back then when you
couldn't call any country easily except with a ham radio. It was
exciting when you couldn't talk to anyone when they were out and about
unless they had an operator's license.

But today, we have cell phones and Skype. We can talk to anyone,
anywhere. And we can reach people all over the world merely for the cost
of sustaining a broadband connection. Technology that can deliver
broadband is, in Computing Unplugged's opinion, more valuable than ham
radio as a hobby. "

The full Article ;

http://www.computingunplugged.com/issues/issue200608/00001818001.html

Comments to the Editor ;

david@zatz.com <mailto:david@zatz.com>

[kb2vxa]

Gee I didn't know you could get your official ARRL CW decoder ring, gotta git me one of THESE! Pretty great idea since the Cap'n Crunch whistle no longer works. Does it come in every specially marked box of QST, breakfast of hams?

[WA2CWA]

Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Aug. 18 2006,17:14)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 18 2006,11:24)]Make no mistake about this, though, I am on the same side in this conflict; I want amateur radio to survive and thrive. Only a united effort will succeed.
So, Marvin, what's your take on the unannounced STA that was issued last March for wideband tests on 6 meters and expires in a few weeks?

Am I the only one who knew nothing about it? What plans do they have for interference evaluation? Is Newington trying to jump on someone else's bandwagon without letting members know? Either I totally missed the mention of this from the ARRL or it sure sounds like closed door shenanigans to me.

See https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=74952&x=. and also the ARRL HSMM Committee Report at http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/ofdm_intro.html posted August 11th.

Nice move to get member confidence going and making a unified effort, wouldn't you say?

73,
Walt, W5ALT
Info on moving forward with the project was documented in the ARRL BoD Meeting, January 20-21, 2006, HSMM Committe Report.

Further documented in the Executive Committee Minutes, March 11, 2006.

Both are available for review by all amateurs. No big mystery here. It does however require you to read the minutes and committee reports of interest.

Pete, wa2cwa

[w5alt]

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 20 2006,10:45)]It seems, here, that you are simply 'hell-bent' to defend only ssb voice/cw communications enthusiasts. Your apparent 'disdain' for the current technology enthusiasts seems to loom in your comments.
Marvin,

Thanks for the laugh! I've been messing with digital since before there were PC's, have run an internet server for more than 12 years, have done professional software development since 1990 and learned how to program computers before I was a ham - and I've been licensed since 1970. I had 2 computers networked together before there was an IBM PC, even though I had to totally rewrite both operating systems in assembly. In the mid-80's I was able to operate my PC (DOS mode) securely over packet, RTTY or even using CW on 2 meters. I linked the NWS with my landline BBS (remember those?) to the packet network and was able to hurricane warnings across country before they hit the TV or radio news. I've also tried my hand at writing code for SDR's and I wrote my own PSK31 software just for fun.

I'm not against digital at all - I love playing with digital, but I think it should be used appropriately, in accordance with the intent of the Part 97 regulations and that if the ARRL wants to get members involved, then the way to do it is not to hide the efforts until after the fact.

If your statement is representative of the ARRL, I can see why they are losing members.

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[k2vhw]

Quote[/b] (WA2CWA @ Aug. 20 2006,12:42)]Quote[/b] (w5alt @ Aug. 18 2006,17:14)]Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 18 2006,11:24)]Make no mistake about this, though, I am on the same side in this conflict; I want amateur radio to survive and thrive. Only a united effort will succeed.
So, Marvin, what's your take on the unannounced STA that #was issued last March for wideband tests on 6 meters and expires in a few weeks?

Am I the only one who knew nothing about it? What plans do they have for interference evaluation? Is Newington trying to jump on someone else's bandwagon without letting members know? Either I totally missed the mention of this from the ARRL or it sure sounds like closed door shenanigans to me.

See https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/els/GetAtt.html?id=74952&x=. and also the ARRL HSMM Committee Report at http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/ofdm_intro.html posted August 11th.

Nice move to get member confidence going and making a unified effort, wouldn't you say?

73,
Walt, W5ALT
Info on moving forward with the project was documented in the ARRL BoD Meeting, January 20-21, 2006, HSMM Committe Report.

Further documented in the Executive Committee Minutes, March 11, 2006.

Both are available for review by all amateurs. No big mystery here. It does however require you to read the minutes and committee reports of interest.

Pete, wa2cwa
Walt,
Very impressive bio. So it completely confounds me why you so strongly support ssb voice/cw operations/ops to the near prejudice of all the other mode operators and experimenters. Why you lament the application for an STA (temporary authorization) for the experimentation of a digital mode? (Your previous post.)
I will admit that I have not followed that application for the 6 meter STA,however, STA's are a very common and widely used method of experimenting with modes that might be uncommon to some spectrum. These things in and of themselves do not constitute some devious policy to userp spectrum from ssb voice/cw operations. (Your post seemed to lead me to this belief.)
What do you imply when you say "....should be used appropriately"? And in ....."in accordance with part 97"...?
Bandplanning does not imply violation of part 97. Making space for experimental modes allows those interests to be a part of amateur radio as well.
Furthermore, an STA (temporary authorization) means just that......temporary. As I understand it to be, the spectrum that will be used has no conflicts in the geographical area they will use them.
What about the STA given foreign broadcasters by FCC to use amateur 2 meter frequencies for a special sports event? Are we going to blame the ARRL for that, too?
Finally, if the application (STA) leads to ARRL bandplanning action that the membership strongly disagrees; I would expect the majority to call and/or write their Directors/SM's with objections. The elected leaders WILL LISTEN when the MAJORITY speak. If they don't..........change will happen at election time. (I'm a firm believer in the democratic process.)

Marvin
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[w5alt]

Marvin, Marvin, Marvin, you are confused. I'll try again to explain.

Quote[/b] (k2vhw @ Aug. 20 2006,23:22)]Very impressive bio. So it completely confounds me why you so strongly support ssb voice/cw operations/ops to the near prejudice of all the other mode operators and experimenters.
Others have called them "digital elite" or "protocol warroirs", but it seems that you belong to that group. If I'm not 100% for the use of digital computer linking on all of the amateur bands, then I'm prejudiced against all the other mode operators and experimenters?

Would you like to guess what a few 200 kHz networks would do to our HF bands? What about 6 meters?

Quote[/b] ]Why you lament the application for an STA (temporary authorization) for the experimentation of a digital mode? (Your previous post.)
You don't have any problem at all with an experimental STA that uses a popular ham band during a time of the year when it regularly opens for long range propagation and doesn't include a means to evaluate interference potential?

Quote[/b] ]I will admit that I have not followed that application for the 6 meter STA,however, STA's are a very common and widely used method of experimenting with modes that might be uncommon to some spectrum. These things in and of themselves do not constitute some devious policy to userp spectrum from ssb voice/cw operations. (Your post seemed to lead me to this belief.)
Then why didn't the ARRL want amateurs listening and logging interference? Yes, STA's are common, but normally the ARRL mentions them in QST or on their web page. After the nasty comments to the FCC in response to their last 2 proposals, you'd think they'd get the message by now, but they apparently haven't.

Quote[/b] ]What do you imply when you say "....should be used appropriately"? And in ....."in accordance with part 97"...?
Bandplanning does not imply violation of part 97. Making space for experimental modes allows those interests to be a part of amateur radio as well.
Appropriate behaviour includes not QRMing. In accordance with Part 97 mens just what Part 97 says.

Quote[/b] ]Furthermore, an STA (temporary authorization) means just that......temporary. As I understand it to be, the spectrum that will be used has no conflicts in the geographical area they will use them.
Ahhh, so member participation and interference evaluation wasn't an objective. Thanks, that makes me feel better.

Quote[/b] ]What about the STA given foreign broadcasters by FCC to use amateur 2 meter frequencies for a special sports event? Are we going to blame the ARRL for that, too?
And how much QRM did the broadcasters cause? You're grasping, Marvin. That's apples and oranges. The ARRL never said the STA for foreign BC was under their auspices.

Quote[/b] ]Finally, if the application (STA) leads to ARRL bandplanning action that the membership strongly disagrees; I would expect the majority to call and/or write their Directors/SM's with objections. The elected leaders WILL LISTEN when the MAJORITY speak. If they don't..........change will happen at election time. (I'm a firm believer in the democratic process.)

Marvin
http://www.qrz.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
I'm amazed at that sort of thinking! We'll try something and if people don't like it they'll either complain or just quit the ARRL. Don't you think it would be nicer for the ARRL to find out what the majority wants before they do it?

Well, apparently the ARRL doesn't think so either.

73,
Walt, W5ALT

[K3UD]

Walt,

This is just a preview of what we can expect if we turn Amateur Radio into an ersatz ISP using out allocations as the data pipes. I agree with you concerning 200 kHz modes being plopped down on a seasonally popular band.

The ARRL usually touts the so called Gentelman's agreements but in this case, anyone using the privileges granted by the STA crapped all over the AM calling frequency (which I think is a Gentleman's Agreement for the band), and this was for the benefit of hams who want to send a jpeg?

Perhaps during disasters in the UHF / SHF spectrum, but certainly not in the prime portions of a used band during the time of year when it is most used.

If we need to be able to send Jpegs we have a lot of space at 33cm and 23cm. We also have an incredible amount of space at frequencies higher than this. I wo